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Painting nightmare - help!

rjcthree

Well Known Member
Hi everybody,

I am painting my interior parts, such that I can finish my canopy.

I chose Stewart after visiting with them at OSH, ordered the single part primer and single part interior, they mixed a nice color for me.

Sprayed the primer over the past couple days via an HVLP touch up gun, remember the parts are small. No problem. Went well.

Set up today to reshoot the color. BAD MOJO.

Lightly touched the panels with some virgin scotchbrite, touched a couple of bug spots/orange peel with a 220 garnet, wiped down with prepsol and blew everything off. Mixed paint to 25 sec on an M-50 cup, threw some paint on cardboard to get the flows right, and started painting.

Fisheyes - everywhere, immediately. Light or heavy.

Since it's a waterborne, I started washing.

Shot it again 30 minutes later, same result.

HELP!

I'm wondering if the prepsol was a bad plan.

:mad::mad::mad:

Rick
 
I'm voting for water or oil in your air supply. I'm assuming you've got some type of filter/water trap on your air lines. In addition, the best insurance you can have is the little plastic screw on filter that goes right at the gun.
 
did they recommend prep sol, its a petro base. (mineral spirits) doesnt seem to two would get along. you didnt have fish eyes before so i wouldnt think water/oil in the air supply. if so try one of these http://weilerwelding.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/motorguard.html
you can use the small ones that screw on to the gun or the bigger ones that go on the wall with the toilet papaer roll in them.
for years i used one of these http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1118
and nothing else. then i found the little motor gaurd orange disposables, then i used and then i added the t/p filter.

ohh and wait till it happens on the wing.

good luck.
 
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Update

Ok, here's an update:

I have a 2-hp oiled compressor with an air dryer, desiccant style, on a 50gal tank. I pulled no residue from the tank on the last drain last week, when I did a compressor PM. The in-line filter is already on order for my new DeVilbiss FL3 ;)

IF I:

1. Shoot the color coat over alodined alum, it goes well.
2. Shoot a second coat over the first on alodined alum, the second coat fishes badly. Very odd. - update - I found a very light oil coating over the fisheyed paint over the first coat. Just enough to give it a shine, it wipes away. Part of me wonders what the pigment carrier is?
3. Use simple green to wash the oil base off the PRIMER, it's still bad.
4. Shoot color over primer I shot yesterday but have not touched with anything since, it fishes. Bad.
5. Use MEK to wipe down the panels with to without prepsol exposure - fishy again.
6. Use a BRUSH to apply paint to a primed surface -the primer hasn't been touched since it was sprayed yesterday about noon. Unless it is applied in a fillet(very deep) it fisheyes.

OK, one other finding: I may have used about 2oz of TAP water to thin down with, the other 2oz distilled. Got my bottles mixed.

#2 kinda freaks me out. As does #6, which says it's a PRIMER problem, not a paint problem, IMO.

GRRRRRR.

Rick
 
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I had the same kind of problem, didn't matter if it was with the rustoleum or the Stewart system. It seemed that the stewart system was better for NOT doing this tho. What I found was silicon being my problem. Make sure and use new rags, used ones can get silicon from the wash. Next wipe everything down before painting with MEK. Make sure you use a nice filter- dryer before the gun, go to the paint shop and get some desposible ones, mine are orange.
 
silicone

I cannot tell you how little silicone you need to really mess things up... we are talking about a pizza place down the street spraying their pizza pans can give you a really hard time. I've seen it. This may or may not be your problem.
Best
Brian
 
Mist coat?

Did you do the first very light mist coat? That is a key step with Stewart two component EkoPoly--not sure if the single component process differs. The idea with the two part stuff is to open the gun slightly more for each subsequent coat. Too heavy an initial coat causes something like what you described.
 
How much silicon have you used while building? RTV or otherwise any old rags? This sounds like dryer sheet contamination (Bounce is silicon). Have you been using any old towels from the laundry to wipe things off with.
 
If you wore gloves while prepping for paint, that might be a source of silicone.
Had that problem once doing a car restoration.
 
I think we might have it . . .

Everybody, thanks for the advice/thoughts.

I think I'm in the dryer sheet death loop. Talk to Dan at Stewart, it's his first thought too. Probably complicated it by using prepsol, which acted as a carrier for the silicon distribution.

The thing I don't get, is the primer goes on fine, but over the primer is the problem.

I'm going to need A LOT of laquer thinner.

Rick 90432 - now stripping canopy parts.
 
Yup, you are so right, the primer doesn't get affected by the silicon, it's when you apply the top coat, goes right into the primer and bam, fisheye, sometimes will lift right up and off, crinkle, seperate, all kinds of weard stuff.
 
Rick,

It sounds like you probably have a handle on the problem. I just wanted to add a problem that I had with my compressor that you might want to check for, just to be sure. I have an HF oiled compressor. One day, I noticed that there seemed to be a film of oil on everything in my garage. The source was the oil case on the compressor. The oil fill port had a simple plastic plug with a rubber gasket, which had popped off a few weeks earlier (I actually remember hearing the pop at the time, but could not figure out where it came from). This would definitely be a problem when trying to paint an airplane.

Tracy.
 
You use sand in your dryer sheets?

How much silicon have you used while building? RTV or otherwise any old rags? This sounds like dryer sheet contamination (Bounce is silicon). Have you been using any old towels from the laundry to wipe things off with.

First it is Silicone not silicon (sand/glass). The advice is good though. If you use a fabric softener in your washing machine most types use waxes and that can be almost as bad as silicone.
Bil Jepson
 
Me and Dante'!

Ok, here we go again. I started this thread for those of you joining late.

I have stripped all the primer off of everything - new rags, two gallons of lacquer thinner, 12 hours of labor. I know how to have a good time.

I shot new primer on (some of) the cleaned parts yesterday. I shot color today, or tried to. Same @$&(*)_$_*(^_$!!!@!!! thing. Total spiderweb/fisheye on the primed parts. THE PAINT WILL NOT STICK TO ANYTHING PRIMED. THE PAINT WILL STICK TO ANYTHING NOT PRIMED.

Two possibilities:

1. I didn't get the parts clean enough, and I'm still suffering form silicone contamination. I don't thing so, as when I put paint on the parts that were primed and cleaned but not yet primed again, the paint goes on very nicely, and lays down, dried fine, looks good.
2. The primer is somehow contaminated. I have confirmed that the paint is doing the same thing on this round of primer and the last. I don't think it's got anything to do with my air supply, as the behavior is identical if applied with a brush, gloved finger, drip right out of the bottle, paper towel or spray gun.

What else? I really don't believe this.

HELP!
 
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Clean it with...

Soap and water? Why not? Everything you are using has the potential to react with water based paint.

I've only ever used PPG Deltron, so I'm no expert on the water based systems. But if it were me, I'd start with Dawn dish soap and water, then PPG wax and grease remover - wipe on wet, then dry off with a different cloth - then try again.

You could have have a multitude of petro based solvents working against you at this point, including the ones you are trying to solve the problem with. I'm not sure lacquer thinner will ever really go away. Possibly it will leach into the seams, corners, rivets, everywhere then leach back out again.

Best of luck -

Forrest
 
Keep the ideas coming!

Guys thanks so far, keep the ideas coming.

However, I've been to all of the things you all noted. Soap and water, Dawn and Simple Green. Mechanical scuffing, even though I'm within both the nominal cure time limits (8 hours min, at 24 hrs) and crosslink limits (5 days max, at 1). All I know right now is if I apply color over sprayed primer, I go south. Substrate doesn't matter, substrate prep doesn't matter (bare alclad, etched alclad, alodined, SQ wash primer, etching primer, sprayed enamel, scuffed, bar, sheet, washed, prepsol, lacquer thinner, acetone, MEK . . . you're getting the picture, right? If it's got primer, I'm toast. I've had a week to work this.

My latest experiment is to BRUSH some primer on an untouched part - peel the blue off it and go. Tomorrow morning we will go with color. I feel I have eliminated the air or the color coat as the root cause - the color will go onto anything NOT primed beautifully(it lays down over polypropylene even!) - UNLESS - and this is big - there is some chemistry issue between the Stewart Primer and the Stewart color.

If I've got recurring issues - and the subject part is only half primed - then we will know something. What it will mean, well, I dunno.

Rick
 
products

I'm using EkoCoat, the one part poly in a Stewart-mixed custom color, over the one-part primer sealer, white.

RIck
 
Eko Coat

The Eko coat data sheet says you can spray it over other primers.

Maybe try a cheap gray lacquer based automative primer as a test?

Are you letting the primer you are using cure fully? Especially rolling on, you might need to leave it for for more than a day or two, then scuff and clean before spraying paint.

ff
 
Primer

I have shot the color over a grey self-etching primer(NAPA 7220, the SW private-label), works well. I have shot the same grey self-etch over the Stewart primer, then sprayed color, and that works well.

I've had no less than 24 hours between any primer/color coat combo. It was dry, the weather below 70% humidity.

The Stewart primer is has better adhesion to any substrate, in my opinion. It's just nothing sticks to it!

Rick
 
Have you ever used an in-line oiler for your air tools? If so, you have oil in your hose and it's time for a new hose. Might be a factor although I don't know why it wouldn't be a problem for the primer as well as the finish coat. Just one more thing to eliminate.
 
Most paint supply stores sell a fish eye remover that you can add to your paint as a preventive measure,dont know if its compatable with you paint but something to check into.
 
Rick,

I sure do feel your pain. It occurs to me that maybe (longshot) when you spray the primer you're also dusting the surface with some contaminant in your air supply. During drying, this contaminant rises to the surface of the water based primer and interfers with subsequent coats. I guess the brush on test results will confirm or eliminate this possible explanation.

I think during all this painting stuff and discussion of dirty air, fisheye eliminators, perfect temps, flash times, humidity, etc., that we remember it's only paint. If the type you're using is so fussy that only an MIT chemist can figure out how to apply it, I say use something else.
 
No eye remover

Don't use fish-eye remover, even if your paint manufacturer says you can. It's just a tool for mass-volume body shops to save money. It will compromise the quality of your paint.

ff
 
I would take a picture of the problem, send it to Dan.

That being said, I will say this again. Wipe your work down with a new terry cloth with MEK, doesn't have to be a heavy soaking, a light damp rag, let it dry . Than spray on the primer. I went and also waited about 4 days to let the primer dry, than I sanded the primer and then sprayed the overcoat.

One last thing, I used the two part on the inside, no one part. I liked the durability of the two part. I'm using Stewart system. Also, DAn gave me a tip for the fish eye, when you see it start, take your thumbnail and give it a swirl in the center, this will cause it to take hold and not do it. If it happens to have a rough look after your done, wet sand it and it's gone.
 
RE:Wet Sand

Steve

I shot my first 2 part Ekopoly on the cover of my engine baffle plenum. No fish eyes/gloss looks great/used all the standard instructions to prep and prime the part.....so whats the problem here. I got alot of orange peel. Now with that said I believe that my gun setting was off and I was to close to the surface being painted and I may have been too quick between coats...also there is some small sand like flaws. Now the ?

1. Could the orange peel effect be caused by too rough a surface on the primer. I did the light sanding as instructed but it was rough (slightly). Was your primer real smooth or what? I probably need to also run this one by Dan.

2. I had a trial piece of Al. that I primed/lightly sanded and shot along with the part discussed above. It had the same orange peel affect only less and the sand grains. I used some 800 grit wet sand to see what effect sanding would have.....It just dulled the beautiful glossy surface and did eliminate the sand grains and the orange peel effect. So is it possible to restore the gloss and if so how?

3. What gun or guns are you using.

Thanks for your imput Steve.

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... painting or at least trying to paint!!!!!!!!!!!!!NFY

I would take a picture of the problem, send it to Dan.

That being said, I will say this again. Wipe your work down with a new terry cloth with MEK, doesn't have to be a heavy soaking, a light damp rag, let it dry . Than spray on the primer. I went and also waited about 4 days to let the primer dry, than I sanded the primer and then sprayed the overcoat.

One last thing, I used the two part on the inside, no one part. I liked the durability of the two part. I'm using Stewart system. Also, DAn gave me a tip for the fish eye, when you see it start, take your thumbnail and give it a swirl in the center, this will cause it to take hold and not do it. If it happens to have a rough look after your done, wet sand it and it's gone.
 
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unless your really loading up the paint i would suggest sanding with 320 - 600 your choice.(the slicker the better IMHO).but it needs to be very smooth..remember a thin, sufficient coat of paint, is just as durable if not more durable than a heavy coat.

airplanes are suppose to be light. paint accordingly..
 
RE:Not You Too

William

Not you Too!!!:eek: My build helper (retired A & P United) reminds me of this principel every time I suggest a new bell or whistle to hang on this machine.

I agree 100%. Build a light, clean, according to plans and your RV bird will be one great machine....and oh yes..as William says...lighten up on the paint!!!!

With that said, when I sanded with the 800 grit wet it dulled the surface. So the question for me is it or is it not possible to get the gloss back on the Stewart System type paint...and if it is how?

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A...painting

unless your really loading up the paint i would suggest sanding with 320 - 600 your choice.(the slicker the better IMHO).but it needs to be very smooth..remember a thin, sufficient coat of paint, is just as durable if not more durable than a heavy coat.

airplanes are suppose to be light. paint accordingly..
 
Update #???

Ok guys, here we go again.

I BRUSHED primer onto virgin new, virgin new MEK, and virgin new scotchbrited parts. Right out of the bottle. NO AIR USED

I scuffed a bit of each, wiped them down with a new clean towel. NO AIR USED.

I brushed on single-part color. I goes down fine on anything that ISN'T primed. If it's primed, it spiderwebs/fisheyes, to the point of running off slanted surfaces. Unprimed areas, it stays put.

BOTTOM LINE: It's not my air(never used an oiler, none of the hoses used in an oiled system). It's not my gun. It's not my handling or pretreatment of the parts. It seems to not be the color coat, unless there is some conflicting chemistry between it and the primer. It's the freaking primer.

Dan and I will talk. Again. I am packing everything up to send to him. There is no reason for this, I want him to experience it himself. I'm that confident in what I've got.

At this rate, I'll find a spray can of a color I like and go for it.

Later I will try to shoot some other enamel over the primer, just to see what happens.

Rick - really pissed off. I've been stuck here for a week.
 
Rick - really pissed off. I've been stuck here for a week.


i truly share your pain. nothing like thinking your ready to go and
shhhh shhhh shhhh shhhh just to find fish eyes, solvent pop or seeding. for me it was the dx 1791...wasted two/three weeks with that stuff. now i do it the way i was taught in A&P school. you are not alone.:)
i was ready to go to lowes for some kilz
 
Steve

I shot my first 2 part Ekopoly on the cover of my engine baffle plenum. No fish eyes/gloss looks great/used all the standard instructions to prep and prime the part.....so whats the problem here. I got alot of orange peel. Now with that said I believe that my gun setting was off and I was to close to the surface being painted and I may have been too quick between coats...also there is some small sand like flaws. Now the ?

1. Could the orange peel effect be caused by too rough a surface on the primer. I did the light sanding as instructed but it was rough (slightly). Was your primer real smooth or what? I probably need to also run this one by Dan.

2. I had a trial piece of Al. that I primed/lightly sanded and shot along with the part discussed above. It had the same orange peel affect only less and the sand grains. I used some 800 grit wet sand to see what effect sanding would have.....It just dulled the beautiful glossy surface and did eliminate the sand grains and the orange peel effect. So is it possible to restore the gloss and if so how?

3. What gun or guns are you using.

Thanks for your imput Steve.


I have a Sata blue gun, I think the 1.7 tip. Sounds like you shot the coats to far away, I think i used my hand length. May have to slow down your move across the surface, but then again, the closer you are the faster you need to be, runs will happen. I believe I used 320 sand paper open coat. Needs to be smooth to the touch after you are done sanding. Like I mentioned, spray the primer, than wait a few days, then sand over the whole thing, then paint the top coat. I have an advantage, I went to see Dan and he showed me how to appy the paint, big help. Do you have his CD.
 
oops, I just checked the gun. It has the 1.3 tip. One thing I found when I put the paint on, I had to open the gun 3 turns to get the amount of paint I wanted. Also the length of my hand is from the rist to the finger tips.
 
RE:Thanks

oops, I just checked the gun. It has the 1.3 tip. One thing I found when I put the paint on, I had to open the gun 3 turns to get the amount of paint I wanted. Also the length of my hand is from the rist to the finger tips.

Steve

I have been shooting the primer with a Devillbis Finshline 1.5 tip. I have done alot of painting (interior parts) with it so I think it may be toast!!!! I used a Sata Blue with a 1.4 tip on the plenum top. As mentioned previous this was my 1st attempt at the top coat. The primer was pretty rough even after I sanded so I really think this is what caused the orange peel problem.

This is not going to stop my progress any more than my fun time with the tanks/canopy/electrical/panel build/shooting bucking revits in the tail cone area......................etc........................

I amoff tomorrow to the local auto paint/equipment suppy house to get a new 1.3 tip gun...............

I did shoot a practice shot of white Eckoprimer/sealer with the 1.4 on some Al and it came out pretty smooth.....

So the new plan is to shoot the primer with the 1.4 Sata and the Final Coat with the new gun....................WISH ME LUCK............

Plus I am taking donations for the new gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek::rolleyes:;)

Not yet passing fluid from the old body...but...feeling the pain!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... trying to paint
 
RE:Gun Purchase

The pain is doing the cowl... yuk.

Amen to the pain in the cowl.....I wished I knew then what I know now.....but I digress!

Talked with Dan and purchase a Develbiss gun this AM. It is A Finishline #3 with two tips: 1.3 and a 1.5. Dan said he now uses the 1.3 tip for primer and final coat. I got it set up and have shoot some water to test patten and texture. I can REALLY see the difference as compared to my old worn out Devillbiss #3 with a 1.4 tip and my expensive Sata with a 1.4 tip. For the Best!!!

Stay tuned as who knows how the paint will come out......hope to exclude all that orange peel/fish eyes/.....etc

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... trying to paint
 
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Talked to Dan Stewart

Ok, I talked to Dan today, sent him pictures, and we have a preliminary plan.

From what he's doing, I think he suspects contaminated primer somehow. He's sending a new quart to try. We shall see. He found that the color would lay down over the bare metal, but not over the primer, very odd.

I have put down some other paints over the primer, all seems well. Tough as heck too. Cheapo spray enamel over the Stewart primer seems VERY TOUGH.

As I suspected, I had tried about every reasonable, as well as some crazy permutations of materials, prepping, techniques, etc.

Rick
 
John:Short course!!!!

Hi John

Thanks for the offer but......if your process isn't a tight trade secret how bout a short course in how you get that fiberglass ready for paint.

I would also like to have some info on minimizing or eliminating the orange peel effect as the painting is being done!!!!

Thanks in advance for your help.

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... trying to paint:eek:

I do TONS of fiberglass work, and i have to say Vans cowls are some labor intensive parts, prolly the most labor intensive i have ever encountered... Heck even drag car fiberglass isnt as bad as these things :-D

However.. Id be happy to finish yalls cowlings, and other fiberglass if you would like. Oviously there would be a fee for this.. but given the frustration and aggrivation it might be appealing to some people..

I have done several sets for my customers over the years, they ship the parts to me, i make them slick, and pin hole free, prime, fill, and paint them single stage (usually white or dove grey) inside and out, and ship them back.

I can modify, the parts anyway you need, I can also repair them. The only thing i cant do is make the final fit... unless i have your plane too.
Cheers
John
 
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Orange peel can be caused by overly thick paint, but is more likely poor spray technique. As the paint leaves the gun it gets broken up into fine mist, but as it moves farther away it starts to come back together into little globules. It is possible that you are too far from the surface or have too much material coming through the gun. Spray a test pattern on a clean surface and look at the quality of the pattern around its perimeter. Is it foggy (good) or more like a whole bunch of small individual specks (bad)? A little more air and a little less paint might help.
 
What is the end of this story.

From what he's doing, I think he suspects contaminated primer somehow. He's sending a new quart to try. We shall see. He found that the color would lay down over the bare metal, but not over the primer, very odd.

I've used Stewart System Primer on my interior and now want to finish the interior with Stewart System Ekocoat 1 part paint but saw this thread. Wow. What did Dan discover? I'm I screwed for having used their primer? Was the batch of primer really bad?
What is the end of this story? I?m now thinking I?ll not paint the interior at all. Just live with the Stewart System primer smoke gray interior. I know it?s not a tough finish but I sure don?t want to screw it up.:(
 
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