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Personal IFR limits?

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Where do you instrument-rated guys/gals draw the line?

Thanks,

Pierre,

Short answer, the line is pretty fluid, and its based on judgement…of the situation, the aircraft, and the pilot's overall experience...and current readiness.

A good analogy for you would be your comfort level with low altitude ops. I'm sure you make calls on a daily basis at work on whether to take a heavy load into a specific field with challenging terrain or obstacles, or challenging temps and DA. Its a safe bet I'd make a no-go call in situations where you would go, based on your experience…and my lack thereof (in Ag Ops). For me to go when you would go may be foolish…especially since I know you are perty dern bad@$$ down low! ;)

As many have said, good call…for you…in those conditions…on that day. You drew your line and stuck with it. Good job, and honestly, who cares where my line is! If I've been working my way to consistent 500' or lower approaches, maybe its a good decision to go for me…but that should have zero weight on your decision.

Interesting timing on the question though, as I'm installing an SL-30 now, and that will give my RV its first IFR approach capability. FWIW, it'll be a while before I go to 500', if I ever do. Time and training will tell. Single pilot IFR is work…those that do it regularly are likely some of the best, most current instrument pilots flying (IMHO). Single engine, single pilot IFR brings in even more considerations. I respect it a lot, regardless of what I do at work.

That being said, we all tend to judge ourselves, or measure ourselves by what others my or may not do. That's not all bad, as we learn from each other and reinforce each others' good decisions (and sometimes our not so good ones). Like Widget said…good for what-ifs and hangar flying. Once you pull it out of the hangar, its 100% your call!

And FWIW, airline guys make these decisions and judgement calls all the time. 121 and 91 may place different limitations, and company policy does as well. We may have different equipment and a different support structure, but when its marginal, the meat of the decision-making process is no different. Nor is the pair of shoulders on which the responsibility rests...and I don't really care what Captain Intrepid does with his jet! ;)

Cheers,
Bob

I don't like to wear a hood so when the days are 500' I go flying to stay current. I will fly to minimums but must always have an out.
I also don't have a problem with 0-0 departure if I know it is a thin ground layer with at least 50' RVR. Not really a 0-0.

Mark,

Not a face shot, but maybe a discussion generator…one of those hangar flying sessions. Where's the out if its 50' RVR and you lose the motor on TO? 50' is pretty close to zero…heck, even at work...two engines, two pilots…and we need a lot more than 50' (not sure transmissometers go that low!). Also gotta have a takeoff alternate that the remaining motor will get us to. Just food for thought from an RV bro! :)

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Pierre, for 24 miles you could have taken the Air Tractor at 300 feet and people would have thought you were just ferrying a load.

Seriously, I like post 21 for single engine IFR in IMC. It just takes the stress away if and when the fan stops making power if you can let down and see where you are going with 1000 ft clear below deck. A 1000 feet clear below deck also gives you an additional easy out if you encounter ice on let down, that you can't evade or otherwise deal with. A half hour in clear air even in air temps that are well below freezing can sublimate enough ice off the canopy to where you can see in front. A few times I have picked up trace of ice on decent and a few minutes below deck does wonders to clear it.

I do not fly in freezing rain. I only did that once about 14 years ago, for about 1 mile while racing a front to the airport. It required a curved approach to touchdown like in a pitts as there was way too much ice buildup in 30 seconds to see out the front of the canopy. As Doug R says, rules 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 are never fly in freezing rain !
 
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Building Experience

I left Baton Rouge on 2/20 for a trip to Richmond, VA and Brunswick, GA to visit various friends and relatives. Lots of heavy weather around Richmond and much too cold for IFR in a 6A, but I was blessed with clear and cold until I got ready to head home last Sunday. Obviously, the whole south was IFR and There was no way I would try it in those conditions, so, I waited until yesterday (3/3) to depart.

The weather across GA was VFR. Landed in Camilla, GA, borrowed the courtesy car, got lunch, checked conditions and my own readiness. At about noon local airports from about Pensacola to Gulfport were IFR but the forecast for BTR was marginal VFR and I didn't see any precip.; although, the briefer warned of scattered showers. No chance of ice. Several apts north and west of BTR were VFR, and I would have at least two hours fuel left on arrival.

I filed direct. It was VFR in Camilla so I activated my plan over the airport and received "as filed" 4000'. I started hitting cloud tops and asked for 6000'. Controllers began complaining about my transponder. I've had this problem before (after removing and reinstalling it) and realized the plug at the back wasn't making good contact. I reached under the panel, snugged the plug up and problem solved.

Most of the second half of the 3+ hour flight was in cloud. The Trutrak autopilot managed the light turbulence without any problem. A few drops of water on my left foot made me nervous about instruments, but I don't think any water is getting to the panel in flight. A line of showers did form just east of BTR and I was vectored north and around to the ILS 13 approach. The airport came into view at about 2300' before establishing on final and I was cleared for the visual. The crosswind was higher than the four knots reported, and I was glad not to have had to fly down to minimums in cloud.

My arrival was about 4:30pm CST, I had about 20 gal in the tanks and a VFR airport with two RNAV approaches within 20 minutes. I was really glad to get the experience. I wouldn't want to have tried it without XM weather and a good autopilot though.

John
 
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IFR capable?

Some of our Experimental craft are very capable IFR machines. But when calculating your weather minimums, don't ever abandon common sense.

I like to compare it to this anecdote.
Q. What's the difference between your two wheel drive vehicle and a four wheel drive vehicle?

A. With the four wheel drive vehicle you get stuck even worse.

Jim
N444 JT
 
I Think Bob Mills hit the nail on the head. The cutoff point is an ever changing target. It is much better to examine all the factors for a particular flight and generate a personal risk assessment than have a hard and fast rule.

Your minimums are your minimums and there are too many factors that feed into them to have a hard and fast rule.
 
My line is pretty simple. I don't fly my 8 IFR. 90% of my flying is joy riding, so it's easier said than done but I just don't feel comfortable doing it.

That said I fly commercially, and for the reserves behind one of the most archaic panels ever (C-130) and I hand fly 90% of the arrivals and approaches.

It's just not worth the risk to me, and the airplane does not make a good IFR platform. That said I do regularly fly practice approaches just to stay current on the bottonology if I have to.

The essence of Pierres question was where is your line? That's mine.
 
My line is pretty simple. I don't fly my 8 IFR....

It's just not worth the risk to me, and the airplane does not make a good IFR platform. .

It seems that "good IFR platform" is a function of the pilot's readiness and the plane's equipment and reliability. I'm curious as to why you feel the -8 is a poor platform...
 
For myself, a 400' ceiling and 1 mile vis is about the minimum I feel comfortable with for planning purposes. I don't mind doing an approach to less than those and have done so several times when the AWOS turned out to be somewhat optimistic - the key thing was planning, preparation, and cockpit organization.

Icing is a consideration, as are conditions either producing or likely to produce convective activity.

I don't like night IFR. I'll tolerate passing through a layer at night but otherwise avoid it.

I practice IFR approaches and such in actual conditions whenever I can. A "view limiting device" isn't really a substitute for the real thing.

I've often wondered if some of the apprehension about flying IFR in a single engine piston is really more about the pilot than the equipment. Single pilot IFR is challenging - it's all on you with no cross check - and it's probably frightening to go back to it when you've been living in the land of redundant everything-including-the-pilot. Not a knock at all - just human behavior. Going from the comfortable to something different is by definition uncomfortable.
 
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It seems that "good IFR platform" is a function of the pilot's readiness and the plane's equipment and reliability. I'm curious as to why you feel the -8 is a poor platform...

You left out the airplane itself. Which is a better IFR platform, an Extra 300 or a Cessna 210? All the things that make it a great airplane are why I don't like it for IFR. Light wing loading, responsive controls, single engine.

Even with the auto pilot on (I have sky view and GTN650), its just very unforgiving to less than constant supervision in anything less than perfect calm.

I've got lots of single seat fighter time, and it's not a single seat/cockpit mgmt issue, for me it's just not a stable enough platform for me to take my ATP (which pays the bills) and put it on the table hoping a moment of inattention doesn't yield me a phone call or letter in the mail. There is no where I need to be that is so dire I'm willing to take on the added risk and work load of flying this thing hard IFR. I'll go when it's VFR and I can enjoy it, save the hard flying for when I'm getting paid for it.

Can I take it down to 200-1/2? Yeah, all day long. I just don't want to.
 
I'm with Sig

The few times that I flew our -6A in IMC were nerve-wracking. The slightest 'twitch' on the stick had you quickly back on the attitude indicator to correct a bank or pitch input.

The RV-10 on the other hand, is rock stable and a joy to fly in IMC.

Best,
 
It's a matter of perspective

I suppose everyone is different. I've hand-flown my -6A a bunch in IMC a bunch and never really found it to be a problem. I do turn on the auto-pilot while I look at a map or eat lunch, but I did that in the Arrow as well.

I think the RVs (two-seat models anyway - I've never flown a -10) do IFR in the same way they do aerobatics: they're solid performers, but they aren't optimized for it and you need to be aware of their characteristics in order to do it safely. It's all part of the "Total Performance" bag, I think, and given how well my -6A performs loops and rolls in addition to coming down the pipe to mins if needed, I don't think I'd have it any other way :)
 
I like the 800-2 personal minimum. Pretty good chance you are going to get on the ground without flying to your alternate.

Pierre, I love to shoot coupled approaches, but there are many nuances to know about my autopilot. I sure needed the VFR practice before I engaged my first approach.

I have several approaches down to near minimums. One to minimum minimums at night. Sure was a good feeling to see the rabbit running and pointing the way to the runway. That was at the alternate, I had to drive 10 miles to the home airport to pickup the truck. (higher mins). The forecast was supposed to be 800-2 BTW.
 
what about cloud tops?

Several have talked about using IFR to get on top. Anyone care to share their personal limits with respect to cloud tops when considering IFR?
 
Several have talked about using IFR to get on top. Anyone care to share their personal limits with respect to cloud tops when considering IFR?

I'd say below the icing level, (not necessarily the same as the freezing level...one metric is +10C OAT and warmer). Below the altitude you feel comfortable cruising at in your plane (performance-wise), and below an altitude I'd feel comfortable at without O2, if I'm not carrying it. Sorry for the "it depends" style answer, but as with many things, the conditions and the tools at hand make it kind of a fluid decision.

And as "rain-man" would say, "no anvils...yeah…definitely no anvils"! ;)

Cheers,
Bob
 
Another IFR Trip

otof9h.jpg


We flew to MN last week for my nephew's wedding. Seems the weather was against us both ways. Went around it to the west on the way up from Baton Rouge but there was no going around it on the trip home. We spent Tuesday night in Marshalltown, Iowa, and were helped mightily by the people at Marshalltown Aviation.

Wednesday morning I looked for a thin spot on the IFR Depiction map and decided IL was our best bet. Got as far as Quad City Apt (Moline) VFR, landed and took a break to refuel, plan, talk with a briefer and eat lunch. No Sigmets or Airmets along the route. Decided to file direct from Moline to Jackson, TN. This would be a 3 hour flight at 5,000'. Both airports were VFR and Jackson was forecast to be VFR upon my arrival. The ceilings along the way were at least 600'. The radar map showed light to dark green reflections along my route of flight for about the first third of the trip with yellow on each side.

My altitude put me between layers for a good part of the way through the rain. Had to deviate a little for heavier rain, but those puffy cumulus after the rain got my attention more than the rain because of the turbulence inside. I felt I needed to slow down a bit going through them. They probably topped out about 10,000'.

Canceled IFR about 20 minutes from Jackson (MKL) refueled, and flew on VFR direct with flight following to Baton Rouge. Arrived, happily, before dark. John

PS, I also wanted to give a shout out to Elliott Aviation in Moline. We seem to find exceptionally nice people wherever we land, and they make almost nothing off a little RV so I have to chalk it up to kindness.
 
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Using the Rating... Carefully

Left Baton Rouge for Chattanooga by way of Jackson,TN last Thursday. We had good VFR weather for the first leg and spent a couple of nights with family in Jackson. ATC could not see my transponder. I had had problems before, but only occasionally and intermittent. This issue was not going away, so I borrowed a few tools from my brother in law and extracted the unit. Thought it might be dirty contacts and while trying to clean those at the back of the tray found the real problem; a crimped on wire connector used to extend a shield wire for my Garmin 400W had gotten snagged and trapped at the upper left corner of my transponder tray. This was enough to prevent the unit from seating properly and caused the intermittent lose of connection. Builder error! Works perfectly now.

2ccqr6f.jpg




We wanted to make the short flight from Jackson to Chattanooga Saturday to cheer our friend, Kelli, who was racing in her first Ironman Triathelon on Sunday. The ceilings were low; however, and I was having trouble programming the GPS for Direct route to CHA. (Normally very simple.) Decided to put the flight on temporary hold. Seems my GPS only wanted to accept waypoints and not airports. By restoring the default settings was able to enter the Direct to CHA flight plan. Watched the LSU/Syracuse game in the pilot lounge for a couple of hours while the ceilings continued to lift. When we departed Sat afternoon it was marginal VFR at the departure and destination airports and better at several of the airports along the route. I got about an hour of actual IFR on that flight and hand flew about 15 minutes. Was vectored to the ILS 2 approach at CHA and broke out of clouds just before reaching the outer marker. Below, Nancy at daybreak on the Walking bridge over the TN River waiting for swimmers to pass.

2hf59aa.jpg



Clouds were still low when we were ready to fly back to BTR on Monday, so we drove up Lookout Mt to Ruby Falls and did the cave tour. Neither of us had seen it and really enjoyed the amazing underground waterfall. Decided to file IFR back to Jackson late that afternoon when ceilings had once again risen to more than 2000'. Could have gone VFR, but Lookout Mt was obscured and I felt IFR was a much safer choice. Cancelled IFR 10 miles east of Jackson with the airport in sight.

mw4h8y.jpg



Ceilings were still low this morning for our last leg from Jackson back to Baton Rouge. We waited until the entire direct route was marginal VFR and predicted to improve. Departed about 1pm local and flew IFR direct at 6000'. Once again I hand flew for about 15 minutes in IMC with light turbulence which really does require concentration in a 6A. Conditions were VFR in Baton Rouge when we arrived, but I requested vectors to the RNAV 31 approach for the experience.

This trip probably could have been made VFR, but I think it was safer the way we did it. It would have been safest to leave the plane in Jackson, TN and rent a car for the trip to Chattanooga, but I don't think we were too cavalier about flying in the clouds. We were flexible enough to change our plans along the way, and the ceilings were high enough to fly below if necessary. Radar returns did seem to increase as we flew along to BTR. The storms always seem to blossom in the afternoon, but we never had to divert. I now have about 38 hours of actual IFR and finally have my first logable solo approach. Feeling pretty good about that, but by no means, an expert yet. John
 
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It depends

It depends on an assortment of factors to consider. How proficient am I at the moment? Am I feeling on top of my game? How capable is my airplane? Is the weather stable and not likely to surprise me? Is there any undo pressure to complete this flight? Have I completed a risk assessment and has all risks been mitigated as much as possible?

A great guide on making your own risk assessment...

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/training/fits/guidance/media/Pers%20Wx%20Risk%20Assessment%20Guide-V1.0.pdf
 
Just a data point from today. My decision to NOT fly. As others have said, it depends.....

1 hr trip from KAVL Asheville to KBUY Burlington. Night. (6AM local)
I am current and proficient.

Looking at leading edge of the remnants of hurricane Patricia.

KBUY was VFR 3500 ft overcast, stiff breeze and 2x gusts.

KAVL was 1500 ft, rain, mist. Skew-Ts said there was little chance of getting out of the clouds. Airmet Ice starting at 11,000 ft. Local OROCA is 9000 ft.

So.. even though both fields were VFR or MVFR, the enroute portion put me off, plus my chariot would be on the ramp for 2-3 days of rain. I drove the 3 hrs instead. :rolleyes:
 
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Supplementary IFR Limitations

Folks,

This is an interesting thread. I concur with the sentiment that establishing personal limits is a critical part of the decision-making apparatus. When I ask a pilot about his crosswind limits in a particular airplane, I always feel more confident when he states a specific number than an ambiguous answer that includes "it depends". Judgement can be malleable. Limits aren't.

I'm in the process of obtaining Canadian approval for IFR in my RV-6. I propose to write the following in my Flight Manual [the rationale is in brackets]:

1. No dispatch with an unserviceable autopilot [I can hand-fly. I have to prove it during every check ride. Still, let's not plan on it.];
2. Takeoffs with below 500 foot ceilings must have a takeoff alternate within 20 minutes [If a contingency arises on takeoff, a 500 foot ceiling is sufficient for a modified circuit and landing. Otherwise, if something bad happens immediately after takeoff, even an approach at the departure airport would require about 20 minutes, so any "landable" airport in the vicinity is sufficient. Even so, no, I don't intend on zero-zero departures!];
3. No flight within 2000 feet of the forecast freezing level or below 2 degrees C in visible moisture [Ice is bad. Very bad.];
4. No night IFR operations [To provide at least some engine failure options];
5. Enroute weather shall not be less than 500 feet and 1 mile [Again, in the interest of preserving engine failure options].

Opinions?
 
Out of curiosity, how do you plan on proving/complying with #5?
Think about this. You plan a flight from A to B and there are no Wx reporting stations between.
Just make sure however you write your limits that you can actually do it.
Would hate to see somebody paint themselves into a corner by imposing a limitation that sounds good on paper but in the real world is not workable.
 
Sometimes light IFR can surprise

Searched for a thread to tag this onto rather than a new one. Kinda' relates to the personal limits discussed here.

Took off IFR from KAVL Asheville in a thin broken dissipating fog this morning. Current and forecast weather at destination KBUY Burlington was VFR. When I was handed over to KGSO Greensboro (about 20 min out) they said expect visual approach which agreed with the automated weather from KBUY. Well... Everybody missed. :rolleyes: Flew over KBUY for a look but it was socked in solid below me. I wound up shooting a GPS approach all the way to minimums.

It happens.
 
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Flew 5 practice approaches in my 6A today in IFR

This thread is really good for sharing IFR experience. Brad said he flies practice approaches in actual IFR in his 6A if it's allowed by his personal minimums.

My personal minimums are higher than his, so, it's taken a long time for the stars to align, but I did it today.

I needed 6 approaches and a hold, and me and the plane were ready. It was low IFR this morning, with a VFR legal alternate within about 100 miles. By 2pm the ceiling had lifted to about 1000'. It was a solid overcast. This seemed like conditions I could safely deal with so I filed "local IFR" at BTR and set out.

When I took off it was about 3pm, and the sky seemed to be clearing. I was actually afraid that I might not be able to log the approaches, but by the time I got "on top" I saw no holes in the overcast. I hand flew 3 ILS's while I was fresh and then let the autopilot and 400W take over.

After the forth approach, I noticed I was breaking out at about 500', and the light was dimming surprisingly fast. I began to get that feeling you've heard about. You know, "I wish I was down there and not up here." So, I informed approach that I'd be landing after the 5th approach.

By the time I got back below that layer, the runway lights were on, and I think I could have legitimately logged a night landing.

I'd have been a lot safer taking off at noon even though the ceiling was a little lower then. Departing late in the day in late fall just doesn't leave enough daylight for going to an alternate if you have to.

That's the point of my newly added minimum requirement. "Have enough daylight to get to the alternate and make an approach and landing."

John
 
Folks,

This is an interesting thread. I concur with the sentiment that establishing personal limits is a critical part of the decision-making apparatus.

1. No dispatch with an unserviceable autopilot [I can hand-fly. I have to prove it during every check ride. Still, let's not plan on it.];
2. Takeoffs with below 500 foot ceilings must have a takeoff alternate within 20 minutes [If a contingency arises on takeoff, a 500 foot ceiling is sufficient for a modified circuit and landing. Otherwise, if something bad happens immediately after takeoff, even an approach at the departure airport would require about 20 minutes, so any "landable" airport in the vicinity is sufficient. Even so, no, I don't intend on zero-zero departures!];
3. No flight within 2000 feet of the forecast freezing level or below 2 degrees C in visible moisture [Ice is bad. Very bad.];
4. No night IFR operations [To provide at least some engine failure options];
5. Enroute weather shall not be less than 500 feet and 1 mile [Again, in the interest of preserving engine failure options].

Opinions?

I very much agree with Rob's basic tenets. Other factors to add in:
* Cumulus clouds give a very rough ride in the RV-9A. If the height from cloud base to top is more than 3 or 4 thousand feet, I avoid them;
* Instead of 500 foot overcast below, I prefer 1,000. Over known flat, open land, maybe lower, but even Iowa has swatches for forest that would be really bad if your first glance was at 500 feet;
* As for approach minimums -- you **** well better be able to fly an approach to minimums!! Weather does change en route. The difference is whether you plan a flight where you anticipate flying to minimums;
* For me, inflight fatigue can be an issue, so time of day, overall energy level, etc are factors;
* Since my canopy doesn't seal well, rain is a factor;
* Another way at looking at go/no-go decisions is to count the number of challenges on the flight: turbulence, crosswinds, solid IFR vs on top or in and out, ATC environment, airspace restrictions, what happens if the autopilot dies, etc. Too many total challenges on the flight, or too many challenges at once are reasons to reconsider whether to go or not. (And it's also real challenging to have the autopilot die when you're busy fussing with the automation and have low situational awareness because of the automation...)

Y'all be careful out there!

Ed
 
A hold and approach

Still needed a hold and one more approach by the end of the month. Ceilings were about 1,000' yesterday, but there was an icing forecast near but not exactly in the space I would be flying. The wind was gusting to about 20 knots and there was a turbulence forecast near but higher than I would be. I hung around the airport waiting for better conditions, but decided to write it off and try again another day.

Ceilings were about 1000' and climbing this morning with an icing airmet from the surface. Winds were about 8kts. By late morning the icing airmet was removed, and surface temps were at 41F. The ceiling was still rising. There were no precip reflections. Overcast extended from 1400' up to 2900'. A 172 took off and flew an approach while I was prepping the plane with no apparent difficulty.

I filed "local IFR" and flew a hold and an RNAV approach to landing. The temp at 3000' was 32F with mist in the clouds but no ice on the aircraft. I may have cut it close with respect to icing, but with the ceiling at 1400' the airport in Marginal VFR conditions and with flat terrain and no tall antennae where I would be flying, I reasoned I could let down below the ceiling in a pinch. It worked out well today. Should I have flown or stayed on the ground? John
 
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