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Risks of an RV-12 order

FresnoR

Well Known Member
What do you think the implied risks of ordering the RV-12 kit are? I have full confidence in Vans and the structural testing that they are doing to the prototypes, but will insurance companies feel the same way? The Zenith CH601XL was successful for years until recently having multiple accidents with the wings folding (still debated however). What type of risks does the -12 purchaser assume with significant design changes in the future?

I really like everything about this aircraft. I suppose it being unproven does worry me and I am looking for a little reassurance.

Thanks,

Rick
 
Risks Ordering an RV-12

I have complete confidence in Van's. I checked with Avenco and they won't insure the hull of an RV-12 yet, but are willing to insure for liability which is the only coverage I wanted anyhow, and is the coverage I carry on my RV6A.

By the time most of (us) earlier RV -12 builders are pretty well along I really believe all legal/FAA issues will have been resolved.
 
Van's 30 year history and the fact that they are the most successfull metal kit supplier in the world should play a role. If the insurance company don't know that, then get a better company.

I guess it will be fine, until hopefully never, a problem is identified then it will an "insurance" problem at that stage, depending the fix.

Here in South Africa I got several quotes for my RV7, other kit build manufacturers quoted much worse than my Vans comparitevely, Good Insurance Co know the reputation, they know the planes.

Sorry but I am going to say it: If the potential insurance risk of a potential future structural problem is the only reason for you not ordering, then think again... You should order a RV12 for the what it is, not for what it might not be...:D

My 2cents, you are not going to be any better of with any other manufacturer on this specific future risk. I'd rather risk it on a Vans :p

Kind Regards
Rudi
 
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Zenith Accidents

I have heard the wings folding on the CH601 has been traced to aerodynamic flutter. It seems people didn't tension the control cables to the ailerons properly, and the loose control surfaces went into oscillation and overloaded the wing.

So they are probably a good plane if rigged correctly. And we must be grateful to those pilots when we tension the cables on our RV-12s.

I think the risk of buying the RV-12 now is that it is made of Gold! Van said in AOPA yesterday that the ELSA is going to be $65,000. We have tremendous deflation, everything is getting cheaper by 25%- 50% (oil, houses, cars, aluminum, Euros/ Rotaxes). Gold has been going up fast, so I guess thats what RV-12 pricing is based on.
 
I have heard the wings folding on the CH601 has been traced to aerodynamic flutter. It seems people didn't tension the control cables to the ailerons properly, and the loose control surfaces went into oscillation and overloaded the wing.

So they are probably a good plane if rigged correctly. And we must be grateful to those pilots when we tension the cables on our RV-12s.

I have also heard Zenith added flaps to the old wing, and did not reinforce the rear wing spar. The added stress of deployed flaps was too much for the original design.

I lost a good Australian friend in a Zenith.
 
I have heard the wings folding on the CH601 has been traced to aerodynamic flutter. It seems people didn't tension the control cables to the ailerons properly, and the loose control surfaces went into oscillation and overloaded the wing.

So they are probably a good plane if rigged correctly. And we must be grateful to those pilots when we tension the cables on our RV-12s.

I think the risk of buying the RV-12 now is that it is made of Gold! Van said in AOPA yesterday that the ELSA is going to be $65,000. We have tremendous deflation, everything is getting cheaper by 25%- 50% (oil, houses, cars, aluminum, Euros/ Rotaxes). Gold has been going up fast, so I guess thats what RV-12 pricing is based on.


The ELSA model is expected to fly away at a total cost of less than $65,000.


In the above copy of the AOPA article he states the fly-away cost. Do you think he is refering to the SLSA? Unless they really stick it to us on the kits that are not out yet, I can't see $65,000.00.

Emp. $2150
wing. $5480
fuse. $4600
Finish. $6000 estimate
engine $20,000 estimate
avionics $10,000 estimate
fastener kit $250


total $48,480

You can fly away with out paint, but if we add paint.

pro paint job $6,000

total $54,480

What do you want to spend the last $10,500 on?
 
The ELSA model is expected to fly away at a total cost of less than $65,000.


In the above copy of the AOPA article he states the fly-away cost. Do you think he is referring to the SLSA?

I wondered the same thing this morning when I saw that. IF he is referring to an SLSA... WOW :eek: That would significantly undercut all the LSA competition. But I don't think that is possible. Even if he could do it on that much (little) labor costs... there would probably be no profit left.

I think that if Van's approves a very basic panel/radio/transponder for the RV-12... you will be able to fly for somewhere in the low-mid $40's K before painting.

DJ
 
The ELSA model is expected to fly away at a total cost of less than $65,000.


In the above copy of the AOPA article he states the fly-away cost. Do you think he is refering to the SLSA? Unless they really stick it to us on the kits that are not out yet, I can't see $65,000.00.

Emp. $2150
wing. $5480
fuse. $4600
Finish. $6000 estimate
engine $20,000 estimate
avionics $10,000 estimate
fastener kit $250


total $48,480

You can fly away with out paint, but if we add paint.

pro paint job $6,000

total $54,480

What do you want to spend the last $10,500 on?

I hope you are right. I spent a lot of money on the 7A, but decided that I won't do that with the 12. According to an earlier statement from Van, he wanted the -12 to come in under the 7/9 in price. That could have been painted with all the options or something.
 
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I called Van's and got a little information. She said the finishing kit was estimated at about $8,000.00. My $6,000 estimate was a little low. That makes the airframe kit $20,480.00. I asked where AOPA was getting their $65,000 figure from and she did not know. She referred me back to the order form that estimates the airframe at 20k so they are close there and the engine prop and avionics at 30K to 35K. This puts it at 50K to 55K. She thought this was still a good number. I told her to be good to those of us that committed out of faith and that if this thing crept up to 65k she would have a lot of unhappy campers out here.
 
Sad to say it, but the $65K number sounds about right to me. That matches what a lot of Zenith guys are paying to build their 601XLs when powered with a Rotax 912ULS or Jabiru 3300 (some are paying MUCH MORE).

The previous poster who did a cost breakdown left out the FWF components other than the engine. As a comparision, Zenith charges almost $5,000 for their Rotax FWF, without the engine, and just over $3,500 for their Jabiru FWF (less engine).

When you look at it, there seems to be little reason to expect the RV-12 to cost SIGNIFICANTLY less than a similarly equiped, slow build RV-9,7, or 8. The kit price is about the same. The engine price is MAYBE $5,000 less than an aerosport 0-360. The basic avionics are also going to cost the same.
 
Sad to say it, but the $65K number sounds about right to me. That matches what a lot of Zenith guys are paying to build their 601XLs when powered with a Rotax 912ULS or Jabiru 3300 (some are paying MUCH MORE).

The previous poster who did a cost breakdown left out the FWF components other than the engine. As a comparision, Zenith charges almost $5,000 for their Rotax FWF, without the engine, and just over $3,500 for their Jabiru FWF (less engine).

When you look at it, there seems to be little reason to expect the RV-12 to cost SIGNIFICANTLY less than a similarly equiped, slow build RV-9,7, or 8. The kit price is about the same. The engine price is MAYBE $5,000 less than an aerosport 0-360. The basic avionics are also going to cost the same.


The firewall forward stuff is in there.
 
The firewall forward stuff is in there.

Where? Is it included with the Finish Kit? The reason why I ask is that on his price list, Van specifically created a section for firewall foward price that has "NYA"(not yet available) listed. That lead me to assume that the FWF is an additonal cost (as it is with Rans and Zenith). The prop alone is going to cost $1000-$1500. Rotax engines seem to be selling for around $19K. If Van figured out a way to incorporate the additional $4K-$6K in FWF accessories that companies like Rans and Zenith charge into the cost of his kit he will have a real competative advantage.

The $35K number for FWF and avionics quoted by the Vans rep to an earlier poster sounds about right, based on what his competitors are selling at. My estimate is $25K for FWF complete and $10K for instruments and Avionics. If my math is off, let me know.:)
 
Cost

I am not seeing what is significant about comparing costs of the -12 to the Zeinth or any other airplane. Nor do I see any value in calling out examples of wing failures in other airplanes. I am helping a friend assemble an RV-12 and am very impressed with the quality of the kit and the design overall. For the mission it was designed for, it is clearly the top dog. If you want a cheaper airplane then don't buy it. If you want to put in your own ideas, then build a plane designed to let you do that. There are many out there. Take that Sonex for example. Not my cup of tea, but guys who have built them love em. And you can go cheap and use a VW engine, or go expensive and put in a Jabaru 6. Or be creative and put in a Corvair and change the tail to look like a Bonaza. The RV-12 is a new generation aircraft designed with a different set of parameters. If this aircraft becomes available as a completed airplane, you can expect to pay 100,000 plus.
Considering the engineering that went into this plane, the completeness of the kit and the matched hole tooling allowing the aircraft to be riveted without first making jigs it is a bargain.

Tom Hunter
 
Where? Is it included with the Finish Kit? The reason why I ask is that on his price list, Van specifically created a section for firewall foward price that has "NYA"(not yet available) listed. That lead me to assume that the FWF is an additonal cost (as it is with Rans and Zenith). The prop alone is going to cost $1000-$1500. Rotax engines seem to be selling for around $19K. If Van figured out a way to incorporate the additional $4K-$6K in FWF accessories that companies like Rans and Zenith charge into the cost of his kit he will have a real competative advantage.

The $35K number for FWF and avionics quoted by the Vans rep to an earlier poster sounds about right, based on what his competitors are selling at. My estimate is $25K for FWF complete and $10K for instruments and Avionics. If my math is off, let me know.:)

Ditto, I hope the Finish kit and FW forward kits are still seperate like the traditional ohter RV kits, it is easier to split $8K over two portions then one huge chunk...

Actually the current orderform says the FW forward kit includes the engine and prop as well...

FINISH KIT: contains cowling, engine mount, canopy, wheels/brakes and nose gear components.
FIREWALL FORWARD KIT: contains Rotax 912ULS engine and engine installation kit, Sensenich fixed-pitch propeller.

Regards
Rudi
 
Kit Price

Where? Is it included with the Finish Kit? The reason why I ask is that on his price list, Van specifically created a section for firewall foward price that has "NYA"(not yet available) listed. That lead me to assume that the FWF is an additonal cost (as it is with Rans and Zenith). The prop alone is going to cost $1000-$1500. Rotax engines seem to be selling for around $19K. If Van figured out a way to incorporate the additional $4K-$6K in FWF accessories that companies like Rans and Zenith charge into the cost of his kit he will have a real competative advantage.

The $35K number for FWF and avionics quoted by the Vans rep to an earlier poster sounds about right, based on what his competitors are selling at. My estimate is $25K for FWF complete and $10K for instruments and Avionics. If my math is off, let me know.:)

For what it's worth, the Rans S-19 quite estimator gives $49,287 for the price without panel or paint (http://www.rans.com/_KITS/QuickPricing.htm). It includes kit, firewall forward, engine, and prop. So I guess that with panel and paint, you're looking at a good $60,000 or more.
 
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Where? Is it included with the Finish Kit? The reason why I ask is that on his price list, Van specifically created a section for firewall foward price that has "NYA"(not yet available) listed. That lead me to assume that the FWF is an additonal cost (as it is with Rans and Zenith). The prop alone is going to cost $1000-$1500. Rotax engines seem to be selling for around $19K. If Van figured out a way to incorporate the additional $4K-$6K in FWF accessories that companies like Rans and Zenith charge into the cost of his kit he will have a real competative advantage.

The $35K number for FWF and avionics quoted by the Vans rep to an earlier poster sounds about right, based on what his competitors are selling at. My estimate is $25K for FWF complete and $10K for instruments and Avionics. If my math is off, let me know.:)

The firewall forward kit is the engine/prop. The engine mount is in the finish kit. Van's estimates the firewall forward or engine kit and the avionics kit to be 30 to 35K. The airframe is about 20K. That is 55K not 65K. Van's is in the process of negotiating prices with vendors. It could very well be cheaper.
 
The firewall forward kit is the engine/prop. The engine mount is in the finish kit. Van's estimates the firewall forward or engine kit and the avionics kit to be 30 to 35K. The airframe is about 20K. That is 55K not 65K. Van's is in the process of negotiating prices with vendors. It could very well be cheaper.

Sounds good to me. Maybe another $500-$1000 for upolstery/seats, but that is pretty much all that is needed. Is the RV12 made with 6061 aluminum or is it 2024 like the other RVs? I don't know how 2024 looks polished, but several of the polished 6061 planes I've seen look sweet and the process is fairly inexpensive. Perhaps the $65K number came from extras like a custom paint job, plush leather interior, etc.
 
It's not the alloy that makes 2024 polish so nice, it's that it is 'Alcad', a thin coating of pure aluminum on the faces.
 
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