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Hex/Allen vs. Torx(Plus) vs. Phillips

Tram

Well Known Member
Ok.. I'm tired of stripping out phillips head screws.. Just driving me nuts. I'm also redoing the interior of our bird, so I'm thinking about replacing all the phillips with either hex/allen head screws or Torx screws..

The things that obviously are a down side that I can think of is the lack of common tools. If I break somewhere finding a Torx 15 bit may be hard. However, if I keep a tool kit with a couple Torx bits, I'm golden.

So, I'm wondering if anyone has come up with any other reasons to stay away from something other than phillips?
 
I had a problem stripping Phillips head screws, until a few months ago someone suggested touching the screwdriver tip to some valve grinding compound. The compound really grips the screw. Between the compound and using good tips I have not since had any issues with stripped screws at all!! I carry a small tube of it in my flight tool kit.
 
Maybe try a new aircraft bit? Screw too!

Ok.. I'm tired of stripping out phillips head screws.. Just driving me nuts. I'm also redoing the interior of our bird, so I'm thinking about replacing all the phillips with either hex/allen head screws or Torx screws..

The things that obviously are a down side that I can think of is the lack of common tools. If I break somewhere finding a Torx 15 bit may be hard. However, if I keep a tool kit with a couple Torx bits, I'm golden.

So, I'm wondering if anyone has come up with any other reasons to stay away from something other than phillips?


Screws hold a large part of aviation together.
Cadmium Plating protects the aluminum, so stick with it. Stainless steel is corrosive to the aluminum when there is any moisture present.

Use decent aircraft screws and Aircraft Spec driver bits. Yes they wear too, so does the fastener, but the object is to fasten parts together with no short or long term damage to the airframe.

We sell quite a few these to repair stations

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/zephyr-bits.pdf
 
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I've had far fewer galled heads once I got a couple of good Phillips screwdrivers (Snap-On #1 and #2). The Crapsman screwdrivers were okay for some stuff, but when it comes time for serious assembly, good tools are worth the price. There are probably better ones than Snap-On out there, too, but they work very well for me.
 
I've had particularly bad luck with interior screws lately myself... I'm using nothing but good Snap-on and Wiha drivers and bits, but even so it's far too easy to strip them out, especially on the screws that are impossible to drive straight, like the ones that hold the center tunnel cover on forward of the spar carrythrough on the 7. It seems like the holding torque of nutplates is higher than the stripping torque of the head. I ended up running a tap through all the nutplates that hold screws that are hard to get at.
 
Ok.. I'm tired of stripping out phillips head screws.. Just driving me nuts. I'm also redoing the interior of our bird, so I'm thinking about replacing all the phillips with either hex/allen head screws or Torx screws..

The things that obviously are a down side that I can think of is the lack of common tools. If I break somewhere finding a Torx 15 bit may be hard. However, if I keep a tool kit with a couple Torx bits, I'm golden.

So, I'm wondering if anyone has come up with any other reasons to stay away from something other than phillips?

Microfasteners.com has 100deg torx: http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/standard.cfm?Category=SSC&SubCategory=FCMXS

button head:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/standard.cfm?Category=SSC&SubCategory=SBXS

I love 'em...they don't strip and they can be torqued tighter than phillips screws. I completely avoid phillips head screws if I can.
 
It depends on the location of the screw

In difficult to reach places, such as up under the panel, fuel tank cover, or along the sides of the seat pans, I use cap screws. Under the seat cushions, I use pan head screws.

To access those cap screws I use three tools that I keep in my traveling tool bag. One is a bit driver that has a storage compartment in the end of the handle. I keep four bits in there; flat, Philips, and two sizes of allen bits. To get to those hard to reach spots, I use a flexible extension that can accept a bit one end and inserted into the screwdriver on the other end.

Of course, those tools can also be used in a cordless drill, to speed installation and removal.
 
along the sides of the seat pans, I realized when it came time to install the pans that I had never installed those nutplates. I knew they'd be a chore, both to install the nutplates as well as to install and remove screws, so I put speednuts and PK screws there instead :D
 
Ditto what Bob said. Those torx heads are fabulous. Have never stripped one and regularly replace phillips. They are stainless but then I'm not on aluminum.....:eek:

Mike Melville tried them out for a long time and finally declared them great so I tried and will eventually change over all. Wish they made 10s in different lengths.....

And the suggestion to use compound on your driver works really well too! On new screws and/or new nutplates a little Boelube on the threads and the grinding goo on the screwdriver works very well.
Good luck.
 
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I have used SS Torx screws with 100 degree countersink from microfasteners.com and have been very happy with them. However, back when I was building, I remember reading on this forum, or on Matronics, that Van's had told someone that the SS Torx screws were fine except in structural areas. I had planned to use the Torx for my fuel tanks to wing fasteners, but changed them back to AN after reading this. The reason had to do with SS strength versus the AN. If I remember correctly, the SS will snap when they reach their load limit, where the AN screws and bolts will bend before they break. Based on that, I use them for fairings, inspection panels, etc.
 
I found torx stripped too

Microfasteners.com has 100deg torx: http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/standard.cfm?Category=SSC&SubCategory=FCMXS

button head:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/standard.cfm?Category=SSC&SubCategory=SBXS

I love 'em...they don't strip and they can be torqued tighter than phillips screws. I completely avoid phillips head screws if I can.

Bob, I had a disappointing experience with #6 & #8 ss torx screws from this vendor. I bought some about 4 yrs ago and they seemed to strip the head easier than AN Phillips heads. Maybe I got a soft batch, but I went back to AN.
 
Do not torque them too high. If the philips insert area gets marginal in any way...toss it. I get rid of multiple hardware whenever I remove the seat area panels.
 
wobble head

Talking about phillips head screws, a friend of mine turned me on to a Snap On bit that allows for about a 15-20 degree offset while still being square to the screw. Great for those tight ones next to an immovable part where you either skin your knuckles or strip the head :D Try one, but you'll have to ask your tool supplier to find em in the catalog. about $7.00 each.
Ron
RV-4
N8ZD
 
Microfasteners.com has 100deg torx: http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/standard.cfm?Category=SSC&SubCategory=FCMXS

button head:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/standard.cfm?Category=SSC&SubCategory=SBXS

I love 'em...they don't strip and they can be torqued tighter than phillips screws. I completely avoid phillips head screws if I can.


Ok, so I just ordered a couple hundred. Everything is going "6-lobe." Have you found a decent driver tip for them or are they less prone to needing a special tip?

I stripped my last Phillips last week. :)
 
Square drive

In hard to reach areas on the floor of my "6" I use square drive, round head screws from McFeely's. I also purchased a flexible screwdriver to get straight on the heads. Works great.
 
Ok, so I just ordered a couple hundred. Everything is going "6-lobe." Have you found a decent driver tip for them or are they less prone to needing a special tip?
I used whatever quality of driver and tips for my screwgun with never a problem. Seems less prone for the need as you suggest. Have about a cup full of wrecked phillips screws I've saved in 6 years of cowling R&R. These, on the front access panels, are still perfect after 3 years. One panel gets more R&R than the cowls (battery access, brake cylinders etc,).

Had planned on trying the smaller ones for wheel pants and spinner but if they strip - that's not good. Wonder if they were being tightened too hard given that it's easy to do with this head?
 
Bob, I had a disappointing experience with #6 & #8 ss torx screws from this vendor. I bought some about 4 yrs ago and they seemed to strip the head easier than AN Phillips heads. Maybe I got a soft batch, but I went back to AN.

Same experience here. Ordered a couple bags of #6 torx from them hoping to replace our wingtip phillips screws and they were very poorly made, soft and many with off-center sockets. Looking at their website now, they don't seem to carry the #6's now.

--Paul
 
What sizes do we need?

I have the same issues with Phillips head screws and this thread made me wonder if anyone made mil spec screws with a Torx head. I managed to track down the manufacturer that make the screws that Aircraft Spruce sells. I asked them if they make an AN515-8R8 with a Torx head (I figured the AN515-8R8's were the most common screw on my RV and a good place to start). They said no, but that they could make the same exact screw, plating and all, with a minimum order of 5000.

Since this is a few more than I need, I contacted Aircraft Spruce's main office and asked if they would be interested in adding them to their product line. They said that they would be very interested in adding them because they've had several inquiries for Torx head screws. They requested that I supply them with a list of sizes we need.

I'm not looking to replace every screw on my airplane, just the ones that come on & off like access plates, floor pans, etc.

Is anyone else interested?

This is what I have come up with so far for sizes, is there any I should add?

AN515-8R6 Floor pans - 3/8" long (cad plated)

AN515-8R8 Floor pans and many other places (cad plated)

AN509-8R8 Access plates (cad plated)

AN507-6R6 Access plates (cad plated)

AN507C-632R8 Wing tips (stainless)

AN507C-832R8 Wheel pants (stainless)

AN526C-832R8 Spinner (stainless)
 
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Sign me up

I've already bought a bunch of -8 and -6 torx screws out of stainless, but for some applications it would be better to have cadmium plating. I'd buy a few hundred of these.
 
this looks like a nice business opportunity for somebody.
or it could be a nice area of easy improvement for van's kits.
upgrade the kits to torx head screws and at the same time become wholesaler for the aviation torx screws.

not planning to replace too many now that the plane is flying... maybe just a few access plates, cabin floor, wheel pant, and such screws.

rgds, bernie
 
I've already bought a bunch of -8 and -6 torx screws out of stainless, but for some applications it would be better to have cadmium plating. I'd buy a few hundred of these.

I too have purchased some stainless screws with torx heads but they didn't seem to be up to the AN/MS quality. It would be nice if Spruce would duplicate their entire line of screws in torx but for now they've agreed to look into adding the ones we say we need.

I'm not sure that I've hit on all the most common sizes so please look back at post #21 and let me know if I should add any sizes.

Also, I'm going to request that they use the same numbering system and just add a "TX" to the end to make them easy to identify. Being that the military specifications may be call for a Phillips head they may not be able to use the "AN" or "MS" designation. If that's the case, I'll request the drop the AN/MS and replace it with a TX and keep the rest of the part number.
 
I'd love to purchase a 7/9 kit with replacement torx screws for all the removable panels. Especially the interior ones.

Sign me up!
 
its been too long since building...cant remember how to decipher the codes for screw type and size that you provide. What I do remember is that all the screws Vans gave me for the seat pans in my -7A were 1/2 inch long, when 3/8 was actually enough to fully penetrate the nutplates. That makes for a lot of unneccessary turns of the screwdriver. Do you have 3/8 inch long Torx screws suitable for seat pans included in your list?

erich
 
its been too long since building...cant remember how to decipher the codes for screw type and size that you provide. What I do remember is that all the screws Vans gave me for the seat pans in my -7A were 1/2 inch long, when 3/8 was actually enough to fully penetrate the nutplates. That makes for a lot of unneccessary turns of the screwdriver. Do you have 3/8 inch long Torx screws suitable for seat pans included in your list?

erich

Erich,

I edited post #21 and added the AN515-8R6 (3/8" long floor pan screws)

Does anyone have else have a suggestion?
 
I'm in

I will buy them if they are not stainless, and the price is competitive with the standard Phillips head screws.
 
it's probably the least important screws and the most problematic due to various lengths, but the "black instrument panel screws" would be nice in torx as well... don't think it's going to be enough volume to justify it in that case, though.

another "standard" screw that i remember sucked quite a bit was the one used firewall forward to mount adel clamps etc... don't have the name available but it's got a big wide "pan" head and is usually used with metal locknuts for things like adel clamps in the FF kit.

rgds, bernie
 
it's probably the least important screws and the most problematic due to various lengths, but the "black instrument panel screws" would be nice in torx as well... don't think it's going to be enough volume to justify it in that case, though.

another "standard" screw that i remember sucked quite a bit was the one used firewall forward to mount adel clamps etc... don't have the name available but it's got a big wide "pan" head and is usually used with metal locknuts for things like adel clamps in the FF kit.

rgds, bernie

I've been using MS35207s

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/ms35207.php

for Adel clamps, along with all-metal locknuts in the engine compartment.
 
I'm not sure that I've hit on all the most common sizes so please look back at post #21 and let me know if I should add any sizes.
If it's not too late for another:

NAS 517-4-3 - 1/4", 28 thread per inch, 5/8" Length, 100 degree countersunk head.

I'm certain about the NAS 517-4 part, but not so much the -3 part. Seems every reference i've found online says something else. In any case, the description above covers it. These are the axle bolts that hold the older-style wheelpants on my RV-6. I am forever stripping the Phillips heads on these, i've gone through two sets of bolts already. Torx or Hex would be a welcome replacement.
 
If it's not too late for another:

NAS 517-4-3 - 1/4", 28 thread per inch, 5/8" Length, 100 degree countersunk head.

I'm certain about the NAS 517-4 part, but not so much the -3 part. Seems every reference i've found online says something else. In any case, the description above covers it. These are the axle bolts that hold the older-style wheelpants on my RV-6. I am forever stripping the Phillips heads on these, i've gone through two sets of bolts already. Torx or Hex would be a welcome replacement.

Rob,

I sent an email last night to Spruce requesting the screw sizes in post #21 and I just sent a follow up email with your request.
 
Did they give any indication how soon they would show up on the site? Not the ones I added, perhaps, but the others? I'd love to replace my floor pan screws...
 
The Van's builders are always welcome to the Tech Info on our site!

On our Webstore / Website you are always welcome to use the PDF pages from our reference book. In the lower left of the home page you will see types of hardware, expand where there are + signs and you will see little wrenches. Click on the little wrenches to see the reference pages. Hopefully you will be able to identify what you are looking for.

The Tech pages are always available.

Have Fun!

For a further tutorial of all the product information, see the below link for Website tips!
 
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On our Webstore / Website you are always welcome to use the PDF pages from our reference book. In the lower left of the home page you will see types of hardware, expand where there are + signs and you will see little wrenches. Click on the little wrenches to see the reference pages. Hopefully you will be able to identify what you are looking for.

The Tech pages are always available.

Have Fun!

For a further tutorial of all the product information, see the below link for Website tips!

You may want to consider a web redesign. Your site is very hard to use and may be costing you customers.

I recently looked at your site to purchase some screws. After several minutes of trying to figure out how to purchase something, I just went to an easier site and made the purchase.

Just food for thought.
 
When???

Did they give any indication how soon they would show up on the site? Not the ones I added, perhaps, but the others? I'd love to replace my floor pan screws...

Rob,

I sent Spruce the list and they confirmed receiving it but I haven't been given any indication of how long this will take. I'll post updates to this thread when I get them.
 
You may want to consider a web redesign. Your site is very hard to use and may be costing you customers.

I recently looked at your site to purchase some screws. After several minutes of trying to figure out how to purchase something, I just went to an easier site and made the purchase.

Just food for thought.

+1...! Same here.
 
You may want to consider a web redesign. Your site is very hard to use and may be costing you customers.

I recently looked at your site to purchase some screws. After several minutes of trying to figure out how to purchase something, I just went to an easier site and made the purchase.

Just food for thought.


+2.........
 
You may want to consider a web redesign. Your site is very hard to use and may be costing you customers.

I recently looked at your site to purchase some screws. After several minutes of trying to figure out how to purchase something, I just went to an easier site and made the purchase.

Just food for thought.
+3. I haven't bought anything yet but have looked on your site a couple of times and had a really hard time finding the screws I wanted.
 
Thread Bump

Rob,

I sent Spruce the list and they confirmed receiving it but I haven't been given any indication of how long this will take. I'll post updates to this thread when I get them.

Hello Jake,

Any news from Spruce about this? Still very interested to replace most of the Phillips heads with Torx.
Thank you very much for your good lobbying work.
 
I'll put in another vote for NAS1801 hex head screws. I've been using NAS1801-08-8 as direct replacements for the Van's-supplied AN515-8R8 phillips screws. Since they are structural they are probably overkill, and they are more expensive, but 100 still only cost me $15.20 at ACS. I prefer to use a 1/4" nut driver (obviously) on ,them, but the heads seem to hold up better to a phillips screwdriver.
 
Is this correct....

I've been using NAS1801-08-8 as direct replacements for the Van's-supplied AN515-8R8 phillips screws. Since they are structural they are probably overkill, .

I thought 10/32 - (AN3) is the minimum structural fastener.

Don
 
I thought 10/32 - (AN3) is the minimum structural fastener.

Don

Yeah, I think you are right. Probably more accurate to note that the NAS1801 fasteners are made from steel to a structural grade spec- 160,000 psi as opposed to the 60,000 psi spec for MS35206 (used to be AN515) screws.

In any case, it's obvious when you take a phillips screwdriver to them. I use good screwdrivers- SnapOn, Wiha, etc- and toss them when they get rounded. In my experience it's pretty easy to destroy an AN515 screw even with a fresh screwdriver. So far, the NAS1801 screws seem more resistant.
 
Update

I received a private message over the weekend asking about the Torx head screws so I thought I'd post an update to the forum. ACS is not willing to move forward with them so I spoke with Tom at GAHco and he was receptive. Tom said that it's going to "take some time" but he is working on it and he'll let us know when they are available.

I also spoke to Tom about post numbers 38-45 in this string complaining about his web site (an opinion I share). He was very open to the criticism and said that they are in the process of redesigning their web site.

Stay tuned!
 
Thanks Jake and Tom

I currently have the microfasters brand 6-lobe stainless screws in lots of places. The aluminum-contact places I can think of off hand are floor pan, seat pan, baggage shelves, instrument panel, wing root fairings, wing tips, inspection covers.

The parts are painted, and they don't normally get wet.

We use stainless fasteners into 6061 aluminum in salt water exposure on sailboats all the time. Of course, 6061 is much more corrosion resistant than 2024, but we do sometimes see some galvanic corrosion. I'm starting to take some of the concern for galvanic corrosion to heart.

So, when/if the zinc-plated AN-equivalents with 6-lobe heads show up, I'm all in. Keep us posted.
 
Better material is worth it.

I'll put in another vote for NAS1801 hex head screws. I've been using NAS1801-08-8 as direct replacements for the Van's-supplied AN515-8R8 phillips screws. Since they are structural they are probably overkill, and they are more expensive, but 100 still only cost me $15.20 at ACS. I prefer to use a 1/4" nut driver (obviously) on ,them, but the heads seem to hold up better to a phillips screwdriver.

Most of us want a safe, reliable and reasonably priced fasteners.

The softer fasteners performance is limited, these like (AN515/MS35206 &7), (AN507/MS24693) are very soft fasteners, 60 to 80 Ksi

The next better is the 125 ksi (min) group.
Such as (AN509/MS24694 & MS27039) The best and still reasonable valued are the 160-180 Ksi, such as most NAS Hex Bolts and NAS517 Countersunk heads that look like AN509's. Also in this group are NAS601'S 602'S and 603'S. These look like the AN515'S but are three times as strong.

And yes we will be investigating the Torx "registered trademark" or similar type of drive for the higher alloy fasteners. It is the design and alloy that makes these so rugged and functional.

I myself have used very little of the screws that came with my kit.;)
 
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