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Ditch Dynon Autopilot for Garmin

RVG8tor

Well Known Member
I bought my panel just before Skyview came out, mainly for the autopilot, never did I think that Dynon would not deliver on its promise to have full VNAV path approach capability for the legacy units. I understand business but.

I can't justify the time and expense to upgrade to Skyview so I have lived with my legacy Dynon IFR panel with a D-180, D-10A, autopilot with panel controls.

It seems that if I install the Garmin G5 (replaces D-10a) with autopilot servos and controls, I can then get VNAV path approach capability and nice things like variable VS climbs and descents as well as airspeed climbs.

My Aera 660 is plenty of map functionality, supplemented by the Garmin Pilot App for approach charts and larger map display.

Has anyone removed the Dynon autopilot and servos for the Garmin G5 with servos? On the surface it does not look like a terrible amount of work and or expense. Certainly cheaper than upgrading to a full Skyview, the labor for this is really what keeps me looking for another solution.


Cheers
 
I hear a lot of "Grumbling" here on VAF about Garmin and Skyview. But never about GRT. Think I"ll go GRT:D
 
I love my SkyView and have not heard much grumbling about Dynon or SkyView on these forums. Great product, product support those few times necessary has been great, excellent value. I have been flying behind mine for 5 years and 400+ hours with two axis autopilot. Two years ago added ADSB and Mode S Dynon products.

I have no experience with the others but no squawks from me on Dynon.

Will the existing servos work with SkyView? If so by the time you replace 2 Dynon servos for Garmin you are probably at the price point for just adding SkyView and keeping existing servos and installation plus you get all the added SkyView functionality and screen size.

Plus if you are doing engine monitoring now the changeover will be easy. Adding the ADAHRS cost and hassle is the only other issue.

I look forward to hearing what you decide and how it works out.
 
...It seems that if I install the Garmin G5 (replaces D-10a) with autopilot servos and controls, I can then get VNAV path approach capability and nice things like variable VS climbs and descents as well as airspeed climbs.

My Aera 660 is plenty of map functionality, supplemented by the Garmin Pilot App for approach charts and larger map display.

...

Cheers
That doesn't get you IFR capability since the 660 isn't a "certified" navigation source.

Does the 660 stop outputting nav signals when it gets past Final Approach Fix? I seem to recall something about 496 doing that so people wouldn't use it for IFR flight.
 
You don't get vertical navigation information from the Aera 660. You can do climbs and descents from the G5 and auto pilot, t? you can from the D180 and D10A as well. You just can't climb on airspeed on the Dynon. As others said, the upgrade to SkyView, especially if you buy a used 7" or 10" classic, won't be much, and the installation would be a lot easier. Also, you would get synthetic vision and a great moving map on the deal. The servos would not need to be changed and the engine sensors wouldn't need to be changed either.

If you went with an AFS, it will accept an RS232 input from the D180 for engine data, so you would have redundant ahrs. As others said, however, you can't fly IFR with an aera 660. You would need an IFR GPS or an appropriate Nav radio setup for that.

I would consider the G5 - great backup, but not a good primary efis. If you keep the D180 and D10A, then you already have a redundant ahrs. You would be better off, if you must change auto pilots, going with a TruTrak Vizion 385. You still don't get much, if any, more functionality than the Dynon.

The cheapest and easiest upgrade would be Dynon or AFS.
 
I hear a lot of "Grumbling" here on VAF about Garmin and Skyview. But never about GRT. Think I"ll go GRT:D

I just finished upgrading my legacy Dynon to GRT gear with their autopilot. Only a few flights so far but I am quite happy with my decision. I am in the middle of my IFR training, and while I have to learn a new system, it is a BIG improvement for me.

The GRT setup was much less than the Skyview upgrade, even with their promotion, and I don't feel that I gave anything up, beyond my marker beacon indicators.

Larry
 
430W

I did not mention it specifically but I do have the 430W for my "legacy IFR panel". I have the approach capability but the Dynon AP will not fly the vertical path and I am stuck with a single vertical speed, I can't just turn a knob and adjust vertical speed in climb or descent.

As far as cost the Garmin G5 with servos, AP control and GAD 29 is like 4K. That is half the cost of upgrading to SkyView not to mention a lot less labor.

I am just curious who might have done the switch.

In all honesty if I am going to rip out my panel and go to a bigger display I would go all Garmin, Dynon just left a bad taste in my mouth.

If Garmin can make a G5 Dynon could have at least improved the AP capability in the legacy system. I know many guys that like their Dynon set ups and I can vouch they have good customer service.

I am happy with my panel and don't require synthetic vision, though it is way cool. I just want better mode agility the Garmin AP gets me as well as VNAV coupled appproach. It would be nice if Dynon was offering an update to the legacy AP functionality. Hec, I could live with just have a knob on the AP-74 to change VS on the fly.

Note this is purely an nice extra, I have flown plenty of approachs with the Dynon, just hand flown down final. This is easy but having it coupled would be safer as a single pilot operation.

So how solid is the Garmin AP, the Dynon is good but wonders in heading and holding an ILS course. I know from riding with a friend the SkyView AP does a good job.

Cheers
 
I can't see how you worked out the cost to upgrade to SkyView as $8,000USD. To my mind, all you need to purchase to achieve what you want is a D-700 and an ADAHRS-200, for a cost of $3,900. I don't know if you need an ARINC module for a -430 though, so that might be a few hundred extra...

You get to keep your servos, the D-180 for EMS and redundant attitude, the existing wiring for the servos and I would honestly be surprised if you could not have this upgrade installed in an afternoon, versus a day or three to remove and replace Dynon for Garmin.
 
Mike,

I have flown them all in my RV8's.
The basic tru track was rock solid.
The Legacy Dynon D180/ AP 74 sucked. (Wandered).
Sky view seemed to do better than the D180, but I only did some initial test flights on a couple of friends RV8s and no real approaches.

Garmin autopilot kicks butt! The autotrim even keeps up during flap deployment!

If you want to be absolutely sure you'll be happy, get the Garmin!

My 2 cents!
 
You don't get vertical navigation information from the Aera 660.

The Aera 660 most certainly supports vertical navigation (VNAV). I seldom arrive at pattern altitude without having performed a coupled VNAV descent from cruise altitude.

Just setup the VNAV profile you prefer to use one time, and it is always there to use for every descent. The autopilot will automatically capture the higher of either the selected altitude or the VNAV vertical target.

rtKrfDh_0mTXAlLPoF2suHnIRLN1A8B8JKCdb-_cqtlx-eCW8HPpvVgkcQB4IgZO-JXqsuj-VXRuohaqChqaolGnCHq-cbZeGBYx1MB_Uj-94aYg4ExHSXGiNAY2JZkzAkf3ojU8-rC4yu3u1mO-4fWzxZHXsZ-XHMqJ8T9KgKx-RJJEYSdlhtMUdJJ3-cXErKPFWWP-ITZp9RFYU4C1KUDdzJ6b67wj-TtARBldAwryCwobQAlS7A87DAHbYa5JF9do6jPGYBbA7fWbMeSKvr879M83IMjN2LJ-xS-hVKxEa_ZIn3XZX9pL_U0PYd6dYdvjeaeYsq5Kd8LTQ2b-3iM3avUHOiVzr2oBsQbMkfmnwSg62xym7LOqJBpa-REnkWmbwKosY9LxVgHU22O9_XZag_vUoMtVW_IzNbqkBHDyS8mju8icqS-Zy42mjki56PapzesqgLjTz-R26JsqVV7Rbh6_ZaY8gS2evZ1POmJs086LAyFvj40lu4pg8Q0-Yt4dCB8x-4cAfro5i436xrLjL6ZISEwEFrlrnodHSTOU6zEs4j0rS4-ItBasGyiGskfJ7s-brxBW3IPSWlapkE0EmH4NFFJ6YKgJ_L_ZJlShw_GxLyuh=w467-h754-no


The Aera 660 even displays a vertical deviation bar for the VNAV guidance on both the 3D Vision page and the map page.

yX_fhKplwbcByIGI59WJGZz87y_rZR_VWVb7KTcJ0ifxvQuOgWD13m1KOVCRAZC-x7-t099EORIoB2f9an9zo0LG5q1MzFiF4QRNVsW6jZ2xY8C6vwMvNrCsDh5v-4idgszY6UK6RXpleTrqi2IonPWqsZCgnRb2u-xCq6ubxcq6pJtMMkiuiZLIAunZjRpjDliaeE4sjExxzSRQ1wO2QN3vozeo4879YPiK3BfqIhVsTe72HDnsgHM-pEsl99BWsdJbkh__ZunF3C-ysihu9qbQ_hQcwdUywlnY-JNSE0U6xnfvfpmxDxUsTyBztsWxCEiajRGAhcu46Ft_J5TiUmJApK8HTUZOxYlydDOazSC9JeJjs4TUm4VR10YtXtFcLtTjuSnKBoPavqaGJDndTCHkvIy0upPyny2NXZ8bGVOZKY2QUC1yvjVyN75olIvDXiFdE0BZmJVZwL1OZr6usEyFXRwc7YgCX79Y3xMDJTDnqfPbY110UhAxIbEPtWqsOcn8GJGP2jL-moQaC97SLgGS8u4ZE-KxZO24TBW9tWLjVETVbhQsZ2CXYJRecdEpWtS6v6Kh9AKNKzuUeD9NGZlBjKKw3WfwoWjITck2APsx7wXWL26E=w467-h754-no


The Garmin autopilot control panels even have a dedicated VNAV mode button to arm for the VNAV capture and use this vertical navigation guidance.

eJE049jaBu8_RuTFOcg9QxgpjyuFXnMPr72IIkcvJQA=w536-h184-no


The APR button on the autopilot control panel is used to arm for the vertical guidance on an approach if you are using a Garmin IFR navigator.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Mike,

I have flown them all in my RV8's.
The basic tru track was rock solid.
The Legacy Dynon D180/ AP 74 sucked. (Wandered).
Sky view seemed to do better than the D180, but I only did some initial test flights on a couple of friends RV8s and no real approaches.

Garmin autopilot kicks butt! The autotrim even keeps up during flap deployment!

If you want to be absolutely sure you'll be happy, get the Garmin!

My 2 cents!

That is why we went with a full Garmin stack, including the latest A/P, GTN-650, etc. A GRT Mini EFIS is installed as an emergency backup.
 
The Aera 660 most certainly supports vertical navigation (VNAV). I seldom arrive at pattern altitude without having performed a coupled VNAV descent from cruise altitude.

I was referring to a coupled approach, which it will not do. I do very much like the vnav to pattern altitude feature of the Garmins. Having a 430W changes things a great deal. The Garmin will deal with that very well, as will the Skyview or the TruTrak Vizion385, the last of which would likely be your cheapest option by over $1.5k.
 
I was referring to a coupled approach, which it will not do. I do very much like the vnav to pattern altitude feature of the Garmins. Having a 430W changes things a great deal. The Garmin will deal with that very well, as will the Skyview or the TruTrak Vizion385, the last of which would likely be your cheapest option by over $1.5k.

Pretty sure the G5 along with the Gad 29 a 305/7 and the 430w will fly a coupled approach.
 
Another Question

If I replace my Dynon Autopilot with the G5 and Garmin servos and control with the GAD 29 to interface with my 430W how will this interface with the Dynon as far as controlling heading and altitude bugs?

Basically will the autopilot follow bugs set with the Dynon controls and or will the Dynon display setting made by the Garmin autopilot control?

Even though the G5 is the autopilot may main attitude airspeed reference would be the D-180. I would want bugs and course guidance duplicated on the D-180

Also in my reading of the manual it seems like I may not have autopilot heading hold mode only track. Can't the G5 with autopilot hold a heading?

Holding a heading to intercept a course is an important function flying IFR and would hate to not have that.

I am thinking G3 Expert will chime in for this one.

Right now all GPS units (430W and Aera 660) are connected to the Dynon HS-34 and this ensures display of what ever GPS source I am using on the Dynon, course and pitch displays

Thanks
 
I'm confused by your question.

if you remove the Dynon, then your GPS signal must go to your Garmin and the Garmin must drive its native AP servos.

The Dynon AP knob module cannot interface to the Garmin, as far as I know.

Does that answer your question?
 
Just steering commands

I'm confused by your question.

if you remove the Dynon, then your GPS signal must go to your Garmin and the Garmin must drive its native AP servos.

The Dynon AP knob module cannot interface to the Garmin, as far as I know.

Does that answer your question?

I realize that, what I am asking is can Dynon still send the command to the Garmin auto pilot. I am no expert but my guess is there is some industry standard for commanding bugs. It is why a Garmin GPS can display steering command to various EFIS display.

The Garmin autopilot would control what heading is set, that is obviously displayed on the G5 EFIS, what I am hoping happens is those parameter are also repeated so to speak on the Dynon EFIS. I am fairly sure this is why Dynon has all GPS units ties to the HS-34.

I am just trying to confirm that my suspicions are correct. The Dynon actually display steering (whether autopilot is on or not) from my 430W, the autopilot just fly what it commands.

I need to learn how various unit talk to on another in this case.
 
Mike,
The G5 will not display heading without an associated G3X and it's magnetometer. In your scenario you would use the G5 to fly its depicted GPS track and adjust "track" to get desired heading on the Dynon. Kinda clunky, but that's the work around if you just want to get the G5 system and not ditch the Dynon.

Maybe ditch the G5 along with the D180, Ap74,HS34. Keep the D10 and get a G3X touch. Your EGT/ CHT harness will plug into the G3X just fine. That's what I did!

Best,

Jon
 
Mike,
The G5 will not display heading without an associated G3X and it's magnetometer. In your scenario you would use the G5 to fly its depicted GPS track and adjust "track" to get desired heading on the Dynon. Kinda clunky, but that's the work around if you just want to get the G5 system and not ditch the Dynon.

Maybe ditch the G5 along with the D180, Ap74,HS34. Keep the D10 and get a G3X touch. Your EGT/ CHT harness will plug into the G3X just fine. That's what I did!

Best,

Jon
I'm coming in a year-and-a-half late to the discussion. I have not been looking for autopilots or new avionics for a while. Now, realizing I will probably need a new standby altimeter--thinking--should I replace it or ditch it for some integrated backup EFIS--free up panel space, etc., I learn from the other current thread that the G5 has an integrated autopilot functionality. Wow.
So going back to learn more before asking silly questions, I see this thread which died after Jon's statement above. I know that the G5 has morphed with increased functionality over its short lifespan, so I'm thinking the stated need for a G3X to get the G5 to give heading info is no longer the case--is that correct?
From what I see, to get Garmin autopilot functionality, I would need a G5, GAD29 nav data adapter, GMC 305 or 307 autopilot control panel, and GSA-28 servos (x2 or x3). I saw that a GMU11 magnetometer is required for the G5 to be primary for magnetic heading.

So now, I'll start asking silly questions.

Without the GMU-11, would the G5 still be a valid standby instrument?

What then of the OP's question that I think went unanswered about Dynon D180 heading bug controlling the G5 autopilot (or vice versa)? Could the D180 remain primary with a G5 backup and would the G5 heading bug/autopilot be controlled by that selected on the D180?

Troy
 
I'm coming in a year-and-a-half late to the discussion. I have not been looking for autopilots or new avionics for a while. Now, realizing I will probably need a new standby altimeter--thinking--should I replace it or ditch it for some integrated backup EFIS--free up panel space, etc., I learn from the other current thread that the G5 has an integrated autopilot functionality. Wow.
So going back to learn more before asking silly questions, I see this thread which died after Jon's statement above. I know that the G5 has morphed with increased functionality over its short lifespan, so I'm thinking the stated need for a G3X to get the G5 to give heading info is no longer the case--is that correct?
From what I see, to get Garmin autopilot functionality, I would need a G5, GAD29 nav data adapter, GMC 305 or 307 autopilot control panel, and GSA-28 servos (x2 or x3). I saw that a GMU11 magnetometer is required for the G5 to be primary for magnetic heading.

So now, I'll start asking silly questions.

Without the GMU-11, would the G5 still be a valid standby instrument?

What then of the OP's question that I think went unanswered about Dynon D180 heading bug controlling the G5 autopilot (or vice versa)? Could the D180 remain primary with a G5 backup and would the G5 heading bug/autopilot be controlled by that selected on the D180?

Troy

Hello Troy,

To do a better job answering your questions, it would be good to know if you are equipped for VFR or IFR and what is your navigator (portable, GNS/GTN, etc)?

The G5 system heading bug cannot be controlled from a D180. The A429 output from a GAD 29 installed with a G5 does output selected heading, but not sure if the D180 will use it.

FAR 91.205 requires a "Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent)" for IFR operations. The GPS TRK based G5 HSI is gyro stabilized just like the HDG based G5 HSI, but most interpret this FAR requirement to require HDG (direction nose of aircraft is pointing), not TRK (aircraft path over ground) to be displayed. Additionally, when ATC is giving you vectors, they expect you to follow heading, not track even though they have a track in mind for your aircraft.

DdMyQj5Ytz5U_4n19pxVPcorSvAaXDkWaMKEGHdII9uFmwMTPDuirrlHq7Mq752OEWl09Q4OI0qzV3w_rSCA7dZPDU_uikEWxqV1Q6FjTaMz0BH7P56sEO31rXj4ZYZaJKobYTH7AWinqcuOOOhirfVeAwqXTLzJ9jFJ6foEfXpsjruDHugBJdt0mEp-H1esq9il63XQyiEn83YxoZ3ufDmWR2EcMZGEOc2dd_BM3X5mF-ZTeFCZ6siVvOnQgtsTrlVgZsQCcW9XDtJTulLyKJb0Ei5KJNlisbkBA-BSbb9JGIiHo_oTRcXj_2PrrUi32GlU4wo0aL8FDPo1CEvCcO-MMEfRz6lOdLYejLERoVFUCsR756KS49VrVyukLHHAFkJ7J1wtKJKkpo4f9CyP5oojX5OlvD3WH47NxUYf7SvAgIxQqfJ6bYx13Pp4k_Z-rKqRBc3rmzsisGGD9hvMO8aZu9nCHWqkKKRADlKBlWcOzqq6-f1mKEbSFDCLkEukKZTOgjbq36LZzKtfhfOtD0LWbR4q8bBOr_pS6V_AxuXF_aNNTjpCFfMRqdcJQ1ugbacbNVxxxWWSohqm3AXDbdOBcchEmJ_SCCqgEJU=w720


Thanks,
Steve
 
To do a better job answering your questions, it would be good to know if you are equipped for VFR or IFR and what is your navigator (portable, GNS/GTN, etc)?

The G5 system heading bug cannot be controlled from a D180. The A429 output from a GAD 29 installed with a G5 does output selected heading, but not sure if the D180 will use it.

FAR 91.205 requires a "Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent)" for IFR operations. The GPS TRK based G5 HSI is gyro stabilized just like the HDG based G5 HSI, but most interpret this FAR requirement to require HDG (direction nose of aircraft is pointing), not TRK (aircraft path over ground) to be displayed. Additionally, when ATC is giving you vectors, they expect you to follow heading, not track even though they have a track in mind for your aircraft.

Steve,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
To summarize (make sure I understand) and reply reverse order to your paragraphs above:
1. Ok. I understand the GPS vs. HDG track. Magnetometer required to provide correct heading.
2. Dynon D180 heading bug will not control the G5/autopilot. Unknown if the G5 will reset the D180 heading bug. If keeping both of these units it may be necessary to set both heading bugs (and presumably altitude bug).
3. My RV-8 setup:
Left side: GMAxxx audio panel, GNS430W, SL-40, GTX-327
Center: Dynon D180 EFIS/EMS, Trutrak ADI-pilotII autopilot/standby AI, Dynon HS-34 HSI expansion module
Right side: Garmin 496, standby airspeed indicator, standby altimeter (leaky--needs replacement).

My "needs": replace standby altimeter, ADS-B out/in solution.
I know my options are infinite. Frugal: I can replace the standby altimeter now for <$500. I can wait until 2020 and see what the cheapest ADSB options are at the time.
I had considered "upgrade" the Trutrak AP to their Gemini AP. ~$2700. This will be all standby instruments so I can have the right side of the panel to upgrade to 796 (for example). This doesn't improve the autopilot and the Gemini EFIS is miniscule.

Just yesterday, learned from your reply to the other G5 autopilot thread about the G5 capabilities. Wow. I could put a G5 where my Trutrak sits, add all the other stuff I outlined and do the same thing but better autopilot, way better EFIS (plus HSI). This solution will be ~$4000-4500 for parts. But where to put the 307 or 507? Hmm. Wouldn't want it on the right side--need to use the left hand for it. Left side stack is full.

4am this morning, lying awake, I realized this (way better) option:
Left side: --replace the GTX327. Use that spot for the GMC-305 autopilot control panel. Install a GTX-45R remote transponder.
Center: --install G3X with GDU-470 portrait display. Remove Trutrak autopilot and Dynon HS34 HSI control.
Right: --move the Dynon D180 over here (if it fits). It is a perfectly functioning EFIS and EMS. I could keep it on the EMS page and it can be the standby EFIS. I wouldn't need the HS34 anymore (I think). Ditch the legacy standby instruments and get an Aera 660 below (or above) the D180 (depending on fit and function.)

So many great choices. All I need is money.

P.S. Do you know there are two versions of the G3X brochure online? https://www8.garmin.com/aviation/brochures/g3x_brochure.pdf
This one shows GMC 305 and 307
https://www8.garmin.com/aviation/brochures/experimental_solutions.pdf
This one shows GMC 507
(and what is the difference in a 307 and 507?)
 
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Just as a side note, pretty sure youre sold on the G5, but I've seen the Dynon servos and I have the GRT servos, and the servo bodies are the same, where as the Garmins are totally different. If it matters to you, might be worth a call to GRT and see just how compatible they are....might save you on that and go with a Mini-X which is a bit bigger than the G5 and has all the bells and whistles of the larger GRTs...AP, synth vision, HITS, engine monitors, maps, etc etc which the G5 does not.

Just a thought.
 
4am this morning, lying awake, I realized this (way better) option:
Left side: --replace the GTX327. Use that spot for the GMC-305 autopilot control panel. Install a GTX-45R remote transponder.
Center: --install G3X with GDU-470 portrait display. Remove Trutrak autopilot and Dynon HS34 HSI control.
Right: --move the Dynon D180 over here (if it fits). It is a perfectly functioning EFIS and EMS. I could keep it on the EMS page and it can be the standby EFIS. I wouldn't need the HS34 anymore (I think). Ditch the legacy standby instruments and get an Aera 660 below (or above) the D180 (depending on fit and function.)

So many great choices. All I need is money.

What is the difference between the GMC 307 and 507?)

Hello Troy,

I think you are onto something.

By the time you consider the need for engine gauges, it is hard to beat a G3X Touch system with a G5 backup instrument.

The G5 will take over the autopilot function for the G3X Touch system if the big display(s) are not available. The G5 backup instrument will even fly coupled ILS/LPV approaches with your 430W when it has taken over the backup autopilot function - all while using the familiar GMC 507 autopilot control panel just as when the G3X Touch system was calling the shots.

The newer GMC 507 replaces the GMC 307. For the same price it provides TO/GA button input, autopilot tone/voice alerts (mostly for G5 systems), and a dedicated TRK button.

Thanks,
Steve
 
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