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Catto propeller performance

smoke

Active Member
Well after several months of wait, I finally installed a Catto 3 blade propeller (66X76) on my RV8. First, a little background. I purchased a flying RV8 in Feb. of '04. It is equipped with a stock Aerosport O-360, 180 H.P. The propeller was a 72X85 Sensie - as provided by Van's. The airframe is very light (1056 lbs.) and straight.
As far as cruise and top end performance - it is fast. It will outrun most of the constant speed equipped aircraft, even a couple of 200 H.P. aircraft. But, top end performance has a price - it took nearly 800ft. to get airborne, and climb performance was relativly poor until 125 KIAS was obtained. The propeller and engine combination was very smooth - especially after Leroy @ 52F dynamically balanced it.
NEW AIRCRAFT
The Catto arrived via USPS - I had already purchased a prop extension kit from Sabre machine shop in Granbury, TX - The man is a real artist! The propeller was installed per Catto's instructions, including the pre-fitted spinner.
The start up was very different - no lurching or swaying from the inertia of the big Sensie - just a smooth running and quiet powerplant. Taxing to the runway I could tell that this was a new aircraft - the sound and feel is totally different. The takeoff run is much shorter and the tail came up very quickly.
The climb performance was outstanding. The air was very bumpy that day so I decided to wait on the performance numbers - Besides, I already made an appointment with Leroy for a dynamic balance.
Again, Leroy did a fantastic job - it is like flying behind a turboprop!
On Wednesday, my dear sweet wife and I had to go to her family thanksgiving get together in KLBB., what better time to get some real world numbers - especially given the weight that we would be at - why do all women pack as if they are moving home??
Brake release weight was 1800LBS.+++. To my suprise, we were airborne in less than 700ft. and climbing at better than 1300FPM.
After reaching 8500, cruise power was set up (68%) and the other fuel tank was selected(1hr.). With a power setting of 2550/19in hg., the Dynon said our TAS was 174KT. This was confirmed by the trusty E6B. After arriving in KLBB, the tank that was used for 1hr was serviced - 8.4 gallons.
One other plus was noted while playing - It will finally slow down !! those of you that fly with the Sensie, know what I am talking about. I used to overtake everyone on the formation break - not anymore - from a 165KT., std 2G break, I am now @ 100KT while rolling wings level on downwind.
Not only that - but landing is easier - pull it to idle and it stops flying.
As far as noise and smoothness - a world of difference, both in the cockpit and on the outside. Everyone says that it sounds like a 540 flying over - less propeller noise and more engine growl.

Initial performance numbers

72X85 Sensie 66X76 Catto

ALT 2500 power TAS ALT 2500 power TAS
2300/21 159 2300/20 158
2450/22 163 2450/22 162
2550/24 171 2550/23 170
2700/26 185 2700/26 186

Rate of climb
1600# gross weight 1650 gross weight

2500-5500 MSL 1100FPM 2500-5500 1600FPM


Summary
The speed numbers are almost identical - but the takeoff,climb performance, and comfort level are superior - not to mention almost 20# less weight!
If you cannot afford or don't want the weight of a constant speed propeller, the Catto Prop is very much worth your consideration!
 
Definitely..

Hi Smoke,
You're another smart prop buyer... :D However, if you experiment (As we did) and try climbing at 150 MPH, then 160, etc, you'll be amazed! We get 1200 FPM with two 190 pounders at 150 MPH and around 1000 FPM at 160!!
Yes, no regrets and BTW, race someone with a CS prop and prove to them that a fixed pitch Catto is faster if it's pitched for max cruise :D We sometimes run 2700 RPM at 8000 or so and true 204 with our 6A, burning 9.4-9.6 GPH.
Regards,
 
C/S Owner Observation

It sounds like you have winners. The best I have been able to get out of my RV-6A so far, with a standard C/S Hartzell, is 200.5 MPH but I'm still working on it. The two super hot biplanes at Reno are running Paul Lipps designed Catto manufactured props. Cris Ferguson told me last week that they got Jeff Lo's biplane over 300 MPH on a straight run this year. They are considering going for the biplane speed record that has stood since the 1930s.

Bob Axsom
 
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I found it

Hi Bob,
Here's the link http://flyin-lo.com/. Notice that the airplane has a James type cowl, (probably a plenum), upper and lower intersection fairings and an RV tail :D I also only see long, tapered, high aspect ratio wings on the fastest of the Formula Ones (Mariah 95) and this airplane, plus it sports a three bladed Catto. Still....300 MPH! Awesome.
 
Congratulations Smoke,
I've been running my Catto 3-blade for nearly 3 years now and am still extremely happy with it. I have more of a climb pitch, since I fly off a 1500' strip here in Texas. My top speed is 201 @ 75% and my take off is 17% shorter than with my Sensenich wood. (175hp)
 
I like hearing this stuff . I ordered a Catto prop for my 8 a couple of weeks ago. Looks like I shouldn't be disappointed.

RV 8 Fuselage
 
No but I can refer to magazines

It is on the cover of Sportsman Pilot for Winter 2006. It is also in the October issue of EAA Sport Aviation listed there as "Arkansas / Pitts" but this is strictly a one of a kind airplane. The plane is called "Miss Gianna".

Bob Axsom
 
Prop Balancing

Again, Leroy did a fantastic job - it is like flying behind a turboprop!

Smoke,
Can you tell me where Leroy is located? Sounds like the man knows what he is doing. If he is anywhere close to the North Central Texas area, I would like to contact him.

Thanks,
Wes Hays
N844WB
Winters, TX (77F)
 
Boy, this sure sounds tempting ... I have been convinced from day #1 that I would put a constant speed prop on the -8. But ... less weight, less complexity, good performance - what's not to like?
Is there a downside or any real negatives?

Thomas
 
Mel said:
Congratulations Smoke,
I've been running my Catto 3-blade for nearly 3 years now and am still extremely happy with it. I have more of a climb pitch, since I fly off a 1500' strip here in Texas. My top speed is 201 @ 75% and my take off is 17% shorter than with my Sensenich wood. (175hp)

Mel,
Where are you pitched?


I'm turning a 3-blade Catto with a 66x78. My numbers yesterday @8k were running 196-202 for 360/120/240 heading. I'd like to fly it again later this week when the winds settle down. I believe I'm overpitched by 2" as I'm only turning 2640 rpm. I'm not sure the distance on takeoff but can tell you it's off the runway in 4-5 secs.
I'm not sure if I'm going to return it to Craig for a repitch. It won't be easy sending it back from FL to CA.

I must say it's very smooth running especially when you throttle back to 2200. It's an eeire feeling.
 
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Thomas,

You asked about any downside associated with the Catto.

I have about 85 hrs on my Catto cruise cut 3-blade equiped RV9a. It is matched to an ECI 0360/180 and the aircraft has a James cowl/plenum. My climb rate is 1400-1600 fpm at 120 kts with just me aboard. With two I usually run 110 kts and still climb at 1200 fpm or more if I want to go steeper and slower. I love this prop/engine combo. I have owned Sens and Hartzell equiped aircraft (a Cherokee 180 and a Mooney 201) and can say that I have never experienced the smoothness of operation provided by this prop.

The only real downsides with the fp Catto relative to a cs are the inability to dial in a low rpm/high mp to maximize fuel efficiency, some compromise on cimb performance (if 1600 fpm/120kts is a compromise), and the long wait time from order to receipt--some have said he is running up to a year. Another consideration is bad weather flying---I understand that I need to either install a protective tape to the leading edge or slow the rpm to 2300 when flying through rain.

Would I do it again--in a heartbeat!! Very little performance compromise, 40+lbs less wt on my fragile A model nosegear and $5K left in my pocket when compared with a Hartzell CS. It is also a thing of beauty!! Take a look at it on my plane in the VAF RV9 forum--"Show us your finished RV9" last entry.

Cheers,

db
 
Leroy is located at my airport - 52F (northwest regional) We are next to the Texas motor speedway
 
Dan,
I started with a 66X74 but had to have it reworked. So now I'm not really sure what it is. I have a hopped up O-320. So I don't know exactly what hp I'm running. Best guesstimates are 176-178 hp. I turn 2300 static and 2750 flat out.
 
Mel said:
Dan,
I started with a 66X74 but had to have it reworked. So now I'm not really sure what it is. I have a hopped up O-320. So I don't know exactly what hp I'm running. Best guesstimates are 176-178 hp. I turn 2300 static and 2750 flat out.

Thanks Mel,
My 66x78 was running 2140 static, 2640wot. Craig said I should be getting 2200/2700. Each inch of pinch= 35rpm.
I'll probably be ok with it as exists.

Dan
 
I have been trying to call Catto Props and the number on the web site 209-754-3553 rings about 5 times and the fax machine answers. Is there a number that I could reach them to order a prop? Have also sent email with no reply.

Finishing up on my RV7A with Lycoming 0-360- A1A would like to know what size spacer is needed and if the spinner kit were order pre-fitted to the catto prop from Craig? Ordered the C/S spinner kit with the finish kit from Van's and need to know what I need to order from Van's to install the Catto Prop. Any help is appreciated.

Don?Squeak?Schnarr
RV7A Firewall Forward
 
Squeak said:
I have been trying to call Catto Props and the number on the web site 209-754-3553 rings about 5 times and the fax machine answers. Is there a number that I could reach them to order a prop? Have also sent email with no reply.

Finishing up on my RV7A with Lycoming 0-360- A1A would like to know what size spacer is needed and if the spinner kit were order pre-fitted to the catto prop from Craig? Ordered the C/S spinner kit with the finish kit from Van's and need to know what I need to order from Van's to install the Catto Prop. Any help is appreciated.

Don?Squeak?Schnarr
RV7A Firewall Forward
Just emailed and got a reply back from Craig Catto last week--he got back to me within 36 hours. He said to order the spinner kit for a wood prop and that everything else in te finish kit should be the same. Mine was for an 0-320 on a RV9. He also said I'd need the 2.25" extension from Vans, the bolts for a wood prop, and a wood propellor crush plate. I don't think these last two things come in the finish kit though regardless. I'd say email him again... maybe he just missed the first email. Good luck.
 
The std wood prop spacer is what you need

Hi Don,

I was told by Craig to use the same parts as if you were installing a wood prop.

I used a Sabre extension and crush plate but everything else came from Vans. You could easy go with all Van parts. I hope this helps.

Hugh
 
Spinners

Craig does pre-fit the spinner to the prop, and this will save you a lot of work, especially on the 3 blade models. He keeps a few on the shelf, and you can send him yours or have Van send yours to him. There is a specific spinner kit that Craig uses, it's either the CS of the FP, I can't remember which. They use different spinner front plates, so make sure you talk to Craig before you order.

Craig is not the best at email, but he has always either answered the phone or called me back within a day or less. Keep trying him, he's an extremely busy one-man-band. I get the feeling that he just turns the phone off so he can work in the shop un-interupted.

You'll need a 2 1/4" spacer, available from Vans.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin...4734508-384-594&browse=props&product=prop-ext
 
Thanks everyone for the quick reply. Just got off the phone with Craig and he answered all my questions about the prop,spacer, and he has Van?s spinner kit and will pre-fit them to the new prop. So I am on the New Catto Prop list.


Squeak
Jasper,IN
 
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Well add another to the Catto 3 blade prop crowd. Spoke to Craig yesterday and had him put me on the list. I was sitting on the fence and had decided to just go with the Sensenich since I already had it. But, now after reading all the posts and talking with Craig at Catto and Sam at Saber Mfg. I'm convinced that the Catto 3 blade is the way to go. Smooth, engine saved in case of a Prop strike it can be tweaked and the Cowl doesn't need any modification from the Sensenich setup. Now I need to sell my Sensenich FP PROP 70CM7S9-0 (79). Brand new in the box ordered through Van's. Anyone interested? In stock for immediate delivery. :)


Robert Scott
9A Baffels
 
What kind of lead time is Craig talking about these days? I'm strongly considering changing my plan from a C/S Hartzell to the Catto 3 blade for my -8.

If his lead is around a year which others have mentioned, I might need to get that order in sooner rather than later!

--Ken
 
I just ordered mine . Craig said he was doing better on delivery times then he was but with the recent interest I've seen on this thread I think he is going to be busier then he was.

Paul

RV 8 Fuselage
 
Kenneth said:
What kind of lead time is Craig talking about these days? I'm strongly considering changing my plan from a C/S Hartzell to the Catto 3 blade for my -8.

If his lead is around a year which others have mentioned, I might need to get that order in sooner rather than later!

--Ken
I just emailed and spoke to Craig a few times over the last 24 hours (he was great about getting right back to me BTW...), and while this may be a little optimistic with the recent interest, he told me his lead time is currently at 6 months.
 
I joined the club too!

Craig's probably laughing with all these orders coming in from this thread. :rolleyes:

I was going to go with Hartzell BA but for the $$$$ saved the Catto looks pretty good to me. Craig recommended the 66x76 for the IO-360.

One cool thing is that he's only a 100 mile drive from me. I'll just swing over there and pick it up and not deal with any freight!

-Rick
 
rickmellor said:
Craig's probably laughing with all these orders coming in from this thread. :rolleyes:

I was going to go with Hartzell BA but for the $$$$ saved the Catto looks pretty good to me. Craig recommended the 66x76 for the IO-360.

One cool thing is that he's only a 100 mile drive from me. I'll just swing over there and pick it up and not deal with any freight!

-Rick
Rick,
100 miles...in California traffic...that's like 700 miles to the rest of us, right? :D
 
Just helped a friend pick up his new Catto 3 blade at the post office tonight. Was ordered just over 10 months ago. Ordered mine 6 months ago and was told around 3 months. Hoping to get it within the next month or so, but not holding my breath.
Ron Voss
RV-6 N642R (reserved)
almost ready for paint
 
Michael White said:
Rick,
100 miles...in California traffic...that's like 700 miles to the rest of us, right? :D


Moose,
People who live in glass houses... :D

I75, I575, Cobb Parkway! :eek:

I love Metro Atlanta. We come up there usually a couple of times per month. But the traffic, ugh!
 
Michael White said:
Rick,
100 miles...in California traffic...that's like 700 miles to the rest of us, right? :D

Moose, that's NorCal traffic into the Central Valley. Piece of cake!

It's just too bad I can't strap the thing to the back of my buddy's 182. ;)

-Rick
 
DanLandry said:
I paid $1850 for mine about a year ago.

I guess inflation doesn't affect the propeller market quite the same as housing here in Cali. The same price was quoted to me today. :cool:
 
jsherblon said:
Any weight & balance issues? Specifically for RV-7s.

I would like some opinions on this issue also. My 8A is certainly nose-heavy with a Hartzel CS on an 0-360-A1A. If I were building an 8 or 8A I would certainly consider the Catto. I've heard the 7's tend more toward an aft CG. An issues?
 
Jerry Carter said:
I would like some opinions on this issue also. My 8A is certainly nose-heavy with a Hartzel CS on an 0-360-A1A. If I were building an 8 or 8A I would certainly consider the Catto. I've heard the 7's tend more toward an aft CG. An issues?


I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'm at an aft cg at gross weight. To stay within design limits, I'd have to limit baggage to ~65-75 lbs.
But, I am also running the XP-IO-360 with the ryton sump which makes it a bit lighter up front. My empty weight without paint or fairings was 1032.
 
DanLandry said:
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'm at an aft cg at gross weight. To stay within design limits, I'd have to limit baggage to ~65-75 lbs.
But, I am also running the XP-IO-360 with the ryton sump which makes it a bit lighter up front. My empty weight without paint or fairings was 1032.

I'm thinking the 7 would be even more of an aft CG than the A model. Any 7's flying with a Catto?
 
Jerry Carter said:
I would like some opinions on this issue also. My 8A is certainly nose-heavy with a Hartzel CS on an 0-360-A1A. If I were building an 8 or 8A I would certainly consider the Catto. I've heard the 7's tend more toward an aft CG. An issues?
This is a question I've asked myself as well b/c I had heard it before for the -9s. Having close to 100# baggage weight is pretty important to me. If I do go with a Catto, will I be within c.g. with 100# in baggage? If not, is there an easy way to add a little extra weight up front to allow the c.g. to balance out where I want it to be?
 
I have a two blade Catto Prop on my RV-6. The prop weighs 15 lbs. With two of us aboard and 40 lbs or so in the baggage compartment, the stick pressures get a little light after burning 30 gallons of fuel out. I know how it's going to be, so I'm paying attention and it hasn't been a problem. Weight and balance calculations say it's still in the envelope in that condition.
 
Craig should consider going Big-Time...

I've heard nothing but good about the Catto props over the last year, and worry that when I'm ready to order mine in a couple of years (completion being maybe 4 years out), he'll be burnt out or I won't be able to get on the list.
Craig, if you're reading- consider protecting your design (patent, register, whatever) and trademarking (Catto already has a great name!) and hire a person or two or three to train to build your props. You be QA to assure they're up to your standards - at least 'til you develop a QA that will insure your standards.
Unsure about going bigger time? Contact S.C.O.R.E (service corps of retired executives) - volunteers that help, guide and mentor folks like yourself. (It's free!)
As long as Van's planes are being built and your quality and performance are maintained, you've got a solid base.
I don't expect I'll be able to get one of your props for $1850, but I want you to be there when I need one!
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
is there an easy way to add a little extra weight up front
Yes, it's called a Landoll balancer ring. It's a steel ring, about 12 lbs, that bolts to the flywheel. I have a 3 blade Catto on my RV-6. The Landoll ring moved the CG forward about 3/4 inch. I think I paid around $90, but that was several years ago.
 
Another option

is there an easy way to add a little extra weight up front ?

Another option is to get the spacer from Sabre, which is 3-4 pounds heavier than the Vans spacer for wood props. Sabre also has serveral crush plates that are of varying weights that will shift the CG. I think they have one crush plate that is 25lbs :eek: but that seems extremly ... well extreme. :p

I hope to get my 3 blade Catto proped RV-7 weighed next week (no paint, no fairings). I'll post my info on Dan's site when I have my numbers.
 
Finish kit arrived last week so firewall forward stuff is right around the corner. I have a RV-7A slider that will soon get an ECI O-360 kit engine and three blade Catto prop. My -7 should be one of the lighter ones around as it has very little internal primer and exterior finish should be reasonably light. Panel will be a Grand Rapids Sport EFIS, backup air speed indicator, SL-30, King xponder and little else. My current plan is to use turned aluminum spools to extend the engine forward so that the full 100 lb baggage allowance is usable. I will be very interested in hearing the weight and balance numbers for -7A's so I can figure out how far the engine needs to move forward.

Steve Eberhart
All the info about my plane is in this message
 
Being encapsulated in fiberglass, does a Catto prop yet require periodic re-torquing as with a more conventional wood prop? :confused:

Monte Neilan
 
Been flying mine for 3 years and even though I check the torque regularly, I've never found it off.
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
This is a question I've asked myself as well b/c I had heard it before for the -9s. Having close to 100# baggage weight is pretty important to me. If I do go with a Catto, will I be within c.g. with 100# in baggage? If not, is there an easy way to add a little extra weight up front to allow the c.g. to balance out where I want it to be?


My aft cg claim(just outside of Van's limit box) was at gross weight when baggage = 100#. This scenario would never happen in my 7A unless I gain 50 lbs and carrying a 220# friend. A 500+ payload is great for a 2 place airplane.
 
Torque ?

Hi Guys
I have been reading this thread and have enjoyed it from the beginning.
My RV4 (soon to be flying) has a Catto 3 blade on it. What should I torque the bolts to?
 
The proper torque is on the data sticker on the prop - I believe it is 45 ftlbs for the 1/2" bolts
 
On the fence...

Here I thought that I was settled on a Hartzell BA aluminum prop and this thread comes along, now I'm on the fence. I'm planning on ordering my finish kit before 12/31, and the engine and prop soon after, so I have a few questions that I don't believe have come up:

1. I'm planning on a James cowl, and was going to go the Stubby so I wouldn't need the relatively expensive prop extension that also limited aerobatics. Can I go with the longer cowl and the Catto and use one of the simpler and less expensive extensions? I am planning a vertical induction Silverhawk FI for an IO-360 parallel valve.

2. How about aerobatics with the Catto in an RV-7? I know I'll have to work the throttle to stay below redline, but other than that, any other issues? Is there a difference with or without a prop extension?

3. If I go Catto I'm planning on getting an engine capable of a CS prop so if I later decide I want one I can convert. I believe I'll need to take out a cap on the crank and install a governor and control for it to convert. Anything else I should be thinking of or that I am missing?

Thanks to all for this thread, it has been very enlightening. Since I'm planning an RV-7 I'd also welcome more thoughts on weight and balance.

George
 
I don't have an answer for all of your questions, but this thread did raise my curiosity a bit. I sauntered on over to Dan Checkoway's W&B database and did some poking around and sample calculations on several folks' planes. With the Catto prop on an RV-7 and an IO-360, most would be aft of the CG limits with 2x200 lb. persons, full tanks, and 100 lbs. of baggage. At least one had a 20 lb. extension on the prop and that one stayed forward of the aft CG limit when I ran the calculation similarly loaded.

The aircraft I checked with the Hartzell C/S and similarly loaded stayed within the aft CG limit.

Dave
 
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