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Possible AD for certain NAVWORX ADS-B Units

I submitted a Global AMOC for the GTN-650/GTN-750 this morning. I also had a conversation with Mike Heusser. He mentioned that my data appeared to be in order and looked good. He said to expect my personal AMOC within thirty days.

The Global AMOC may take a bit longer. The reason for the delay was that it was his preference to do one Global AMOC to cover the majority of aircraft and GPS devices. Its going to take a bit longer to facilitate getting all the various test data collected.

He said that they have data on the GNS430/4520 and now the GTN-650/750. What he needs are people that have other GPS units that they are looking to incorporate into the Global AMOC.

If you have another certified GPS that you would like included and are willing to facilitate using your aircraft to get the data for approval, please drop me an email. (do NOT PM me) Click on my userid to email me. I'll share what you'll need to do.

bob
 
It it appears that we have the Garmin camp covered for the Global AMOC. Does anyone else have a certified GPS from another vendor that they would be interested in providing data for inclusion in the Global AMOC?

If so, please email me. (No PMs please)

bob
 
I just got off the phone with Mike @ FAA.

He thinks he may be able to get the Global AMOC out in about 90 days for the Garmin family of GPS. That was his guess, not a commitment since he has to follow a defined process to get all the approvals before release. He also stated that all the data seems to be clear cut and doesn't foresee any problems.

He committed to getting the several of us that are helping provide data for the AMOC to provide bi-weekly updates on the status. I will commit to posting those updates as I get them here.

He also hinted that there is something coming for the -EXP units too, but he wasn't at liberty to share the details.
 
From the sound of it, it doesn't sound very painful to get these GPSs approved on a AMOC.

How about all the EXP users submit an AMOC using our internal GPS?
I'm thinking AMOC, as the FAA was never able to test it for accuracy & reliability.:rolleyes:
 
From the sound of it, it doesn't sound very painful to get these GPSs approved on a AMOC.

How about all the EXP users submit an AMOC using our internal GPS?
I'm thinking AMOC, as the FAA was never able to test it for accuracy & reliability.:rolleyes:

I will gladly do it if Navworx will send the hardware on order since last August.
 
From the sound of it, it doesn't sound very painful to get these GPSs approved on a AMOC.

How about all the EXP users submit an AMOC using our internal GPS?
I'm thinking AMOC, as the FAA was never able to test it for accuracy & reliability.:rolleyes:

The reason that the Garmin family of gps appear to be an easy amoc is the the faa already has the data they need. All the amoc is doing is basically connecting the Garmin to the Navworx in an approved configuration.

I don't believe that there is any way to get an amoc approved for the -exp. you would have to prove and supply data that the gps is within spec.:eek:
 
Has anyone opened up an EXP unit? Since there is no provision for connecting an external unit, I'm speculating that a really creative person could locate communication line between the Sirf IV chip and the rest of the board, intercept it and feed data from a valid source instead.

As I've stated before, I have no intentions of paying Navworx to fix this mess. I think it could be possible to comply with the AD without their help with a little bit of creative reverse engineering. The worst case is that I fry the little box and it is useless. Oh... wait.... its useless anyway.

Don
 
My deadline for the exp is Sept . After that i will be removing and replacing with echo. If anyone wants to post mortem mine i can make it available. Would like for it to be someone with the intentions of trying to make some effort at recovering its usefullness to the group. Looks like a long shot to get the certification test done for a device that probably is capable but paper work never presented.
 
My deadline for the exp is Sept . After that i will be removing and replacing with echo. If anyone wants to post mortem mine i can make it available. Would like for it to be someone with the intentions of trying to make some effort at recovering its usefullness to the group. Looks like a long shot to get the certification test done for a device that probably is capable but paper work never presented.

I don't have any skin in the -EXP game. But with my conversations with the FAA, they seemed quite confident that there would be an approved solution for the -EXP. They couldn't talk about the details, since the FAA is prohibited from talking about future vendor products. All I can pass along is that Mike appeared to be satisfied with the direction of the solution.

I understand the frustration people have with Navworx. I've in the similar boat with my 0012 unit. I would advise people to wait 90-120 days before making any decisions that require a major expense. Mike clearly understands that he has to get the Global AMOC out the door in time for people to make decision well before the deadline on the AD so people have plenty of time to comply. I can share with you that he's working hard to make that happen.
 
And in the midst of all this... the AD having been out for several weeks now... I was told there was going to be an update on their web site by the end of that week. Nothing! Not any official words from Navworx. I agree the best approach for now is to wait. Hopefully by Oshkosh they'll have some news. In the mean time, my research it taking me towards the ECHO as well.
 
I would certainly be willing to share whatever I learn about the insides of the EXP once I get to see inside. I'm not quite ready to rip it open yet, but likely will do so this winter if Navworx can't make my unit compliant before then. I waited 10 months after paying them the first time, and I still don't have the second radio activated in firmware, so call me very skeptical that they can take care of this to my satisfaction.

I can wait until my flying season is over before doing anything drastic....

Don
 
And in the midst of all this... the AD having been out for several weeks now... I was told there was going to be an update on their web site by the end of that week...

Frustrating. Navworx posted that the V5 software will allow GNS4xx as an AMOC, but the FAA is working on a global AMOC that Ralph submitted for the GNS4xx, to be done in approximately 90 days, I am again scratching my head. Is Navworx and the FAA talking at all? It's almost as bad as watching national politics.
 
Frustrating. Navworx posted that the V5 software will allow GNS4xx as an AMOC, but the FAA is working on a global AMOC that Ralph submitted for the GNS4xx, to be done in approximately 90 days, I am again scratching my head. Is Navworx and the FAA talking at all? It's almost as bad as watching national politics.

I submitted the data for the 650/750 and 480 for the global amoc. In my talking with the faa, they are having conversations with Bill. However, they weren't allowed to share with me any of the details due to faa policy. He did say that the solutions being provided were on target and looked good. Anything that Navwork releases will have to get approval from the FAA prior to the end of service date in the AD. The FAA was optimistic that they'll be able to beat that deadline, but wasn't making any promises.
 
"Clean" PAPR for my AMOC submission

Went for a flight today and got a "Clean" PAPR in my e-mail inbox.
I'll be submitting a Global AMOC for the 200-0013 ADS600B unit with a GNS430W as the external GPS source.

I have already had a number of conversations with the FAA folks in Ft Worth about this. Their last instruction was to submit the info requested in the 30-9 along with your PAPR.

Fingers crossed!
 
Global AMOC request submitted

I submitted my request for global AMOC for 200-0012 and 200-0013 connected to Garmin 4XXW and 5XXW series GPS (with requisite software to support ADS-B OUT+).

Good vibes please!
 
I am working with GRT to install their "Safe-Fly 2020 GPS" position source into my aircraft as a source for my 200-0012 Navworx box. I'm hoping to receive it and install it in the next week. As my Navworx box is of the early vintage, a Navworx upgrade is stupid expensive. I'm not willing to invest more $$$ with Navworx currently. The Safe-Fly 2020 GPS would be an independent compliant source I can utilize with my existing GRT EFIS and other ABS-B solutions if my Navworx dies.
My plan is to fly this combination. If the flight test is successful, submit a global AMOC for the 200-0012 and 200-0013 to utilize this Safe-Fly 2020 GPS source.
I'm following in Ralph's footsteps here, but for a more economical solution for those of us without the Garmin devices.
Henry
 
Following here...might want to do the same as I can't tie into my Garmin. I had asked about this earlier and was under the impression that the GRT GPS would not work (incompatible output) with the Navworx ADS600-B. Maybe things have changed since then...

I am working with GRT to install their "Safe-Fly 2020 GPS" position source into my aircraft as a source for my 200-0012 Navworx box. I'm hoping to receive it and install it in the next week. As my Navworx box is of the early vintage, a Navworx upgrade is stupid expensive. I'm not willing to invest more $$$ with Navworx currently. The Safe-Fly 2020 GPS would be an independent compliant source I can utilize with my existing GRT EFIS and other ABS-B solutions if my Navworx dies.
My plan is to fly this combination. If the flight test is successful, submit a global AMOC for the 200-0012 and 200-0013 to utilize this Safe-Fly 2020 GPS source.
I'm following in Ralph's footsteps here, but for a more economical solution for those of us without the Garmin devices.
Henry
 
Brian,
What Garmin do you have? Someone else here may have already done it - or has the manuals to determine the interoperabilty capabilities and requirements.
 
Brian,
What Garmin do you have? Someone else here may have already done it - or has the manuals to determine the interoperabilty capabilities and requirements.

At the moment, we should have the 4XXw/5XXw, 6XX/7XX, and 480 models covered.
 
Brian,
What Garmin do you have? Someone else here may have already done it - or has the manuals to determine the interoperabilty capabilities and requirements.

Ralph...it's a problem of "access." The wiring bundle is extremely difficult to get to and just won't budge. I can hardly get to it in the first place so it's just not really an option. FWIW it's a G430W.
 
Understood Brian - I have a 430W integrated with mine - working fine!

Yes, a royal PITB to wire up and my panel comes apart easily for just this reason. If you change your mind and force the wire bundle issue, it's been done already - just ask!
 
Does anybody know if the approval for the GNS products will automatically approve the Avidyne IFD products, which are certified as slide-in replacements for GNS?

Just because it's tray compatible doesn't mean it meets the required GPS specification. With that said, I'm sure it does, but it needs it's own AMOC.

I can assist you with the AMOC if you have the Avidyne currently driving the Navwork. All you then need is an installation schematic (the Navworx one is acceptable) and a Public ADS-B Performance Report showing everything passed.

Also, if it's already FAA approved for other ADS-B products, that will make the process go even faster. For example the GTN650 was approved with seven other devices. It's currently approved with Avidyne's and Dynon's ADS-B solutions.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/equipment/
 
i am looking to rewire my 600b to the 430w as gps position source. are we assuming in the amoc that the current navworx wiring schematic and software will be approved by the faa or are there anticipated changes? any other issues beside wiring that i need to consider? thanks
 
i am looking to rewire my 600b to the 430w as gps position source. are we assuming in the amoc that the current navworx wiring schematic and software will be approved by the faa or are there anticipated changes? any other issues beside wiring that i need to consider? thanks

While I haven't seen the data Ralph submitted, I believe that he used the Navworx schematic. I know I did for the 6xx/7xx and 480 submissions.

At this point, all I think you need to do is to be patient and wait for the Global AMOC to be published in about 90 days. We should be getting a status update from the ACO after the holiday.
 
I did get confirmation that my AMOC request was received and appears to be in order.

Now simply waiting for the requisite approval timing process!
 
I just received an email from Mike @ FAA ACO regarding the status of the Global AMOC for Garmin GPS (4xx/5xx, 6xx/7xx, & 480) for use with Navworx (0012 & 0013).

There is a meeting scheduled next week. He should be able to provide an estimated completion date for the Global AMOC afterwards.

bob
 
At the moment, we should have the 4XXw/5XXw, 6XX/7XX, and 480 models covered.

So just to be clear, that will include the GPS-400W? Because based on my discussions with FAA (see my previous post), it wouldn't be automatic based on AMOCs for other Garmin 4XX variants. Does that mean FAA has people providing data for all the different models?

Also won't this all be dependent on new firmware from Navworx as well?
 
So just to be clear, that will include the GPS-400W? Because based on my discussions with FAA (see my previous post), it wouldn't be automatic based on AMOCs for other Garmin 4XX variants. Does that mean FAA has people providing data for all the different models?

Also won't this all be dependent on new firmware from Navworx as well?

I've asked for validation. I'll let you know when I get a response.

bob
 
I've asked for validation. I'll let you know when I get a response.

bob

Here's the response I got from the FAA:

Good question. We normally only approve equipment that is requested by the applicant.

What I can do is see if a similarity argument is acceptable. Would it be possible for you to provide the other part numbers?

We would like to capture as many variants as we can this first time around.
Also, we have our meeting this morning to discuss this AMOC. I will get back with you after this meeting.


So the answer is maybe. We should know more later today.

If you have something other than a 430/530, 650/750, or 480, have either a 0012 or 0013 Navworx box, and a passing Public ADS-B Performance remote while using a certified Garmin model other that those above, then contact me and that will help accelerate the process. I will also need to know if you wired your GPS per the Navworx manual. We also have to supply installation schematics. The Navworx pages have been acceptable to the FAA.

Please send me an email and not a PM.

bob
 
Both Ralph and I had conversations with the FAA yesterday. This is what we know:

There was only three people that submitted data to them for an AMOC. It turns out that they where for a 430w, a 480, and a 650. The people that submitted data will get an individual AMOC first, most likely some time in August.

We were told that this is being done because the FAA is working with a large aviation related interest group to facilitate the Global AMOC to the public. The name and the process hopefully can be made public in the next couple of weeks. The expectation was sent that the Global AMOC should be available, assuming no more hurdles get in the way, by September. The intent of the first Global AMOC is to cover the 480, 4XX, 5XX, 6XX, and 7XX family of Garmin transponders.

The FAA is prohibited from supply the data that we sent to the FAA directly to the interest group. Just like the fact that they have insight into Bill's plans, but can't share any details due to non-disclosure requirements. Ralph, Phil, and I have been asked to share the data with this organization to get the process rolling. We are just waiting to hear what the process may be and the process/organization name to be made public. I'm hoping that news may come out at a large aviation event happening next week. :D

I was also told that anyone that upgrades the GPS to the ones that Navworx is offering on the web site, will also need an AMOC. Unfortunately, that is a chicken/egg scenario. Until somebody installs the upgrade, generates successful data through the FAA Public ADS-B Performance Report, they can't issue an AMOC. They did share that while they can't disclose details, they know of no reason the new GPS will fail. They were quite optimistic. They also couldn't disclose details of the EXP solution, but stated that they were optimistic with what they've seen to date. The EXP news has to come first from Bill before the FAA can comment publically.

If you have another brand certified GPS, I can work with you to get an AMOC submitted and approved. The process isn't that difficult. I may be able to cut some red tape out of the process for a short period of time. The FAA is really pushing hard to help us. There are new resources assigned that weren't directly involved in the original debacle.

I will be in HBC (weather permitting) from Saturday through Thursday morning. If you're going to be at OSH and have specific questions, let me know and we can meet.

As always, as the FAA shares more details, I repost them here. Please be patient. We just have to work through the formal FAA ISO 9000 processes. That just takes some time.

For those that ask, I have no formal relationship with NavWorx. I'm a customer just like you. I still have an outstanding support issue with Bill. My goal is to come up a free solution that will help me and the majority of the ADS600-B users get through this debacle.
 
i recently wired my 430w to the 600b in anticipation of the amoc approval. not sure i understand the process required to take advantage of all the work that Bob and Ralph are doing on the amoc. is it automatic with the global amoc? how will the global amoc be finalized and published. i am very grateful to bob and ralph for the information they've posted for all of us.
kevin oshea
 
Kevin,

We can certainly help you to get to the state we're in with an individual AMOC. The individual AMOC is probably quicker than the Global AMOC. Since I already have a request in for a 430W connection, your's will probably go easier than mine. The global will probably be published as an update to the AD - but published nonetheless!

The global AMOC will cover you without additional application when it is published according to what I understand about AD's and AMOC's. An individual AMOC gives you the peace of mind of having your installation specifically approved. The global will take longer as they are trying to make it pretty comprehensive in order to do it once...

Is your unit a 200-0012 or 200-0013? That doesn't matter too much, mine is a 0013 so we can compare easier if that's the case! Is your installation complete with the green 'ready for flight' indication? Is your plane flyable? If so, go fly and request a PAPR for your N-Number shortly after your flight. That will get you a report pdf'ed to your e-mail address. If it is clean, you're golden except for the data submission to the FAA - we can help with that as well.

Let us know here or in the 'help each other out' thread and we can keep you going in the right direction.
 
Thanks Ralph. Have been flying the 600b for 4 yrs. It is 200-0012. Just did the 430w connection for gps source. Already ran the faa report. All is good. What else must i do? Kevin
 
Thanks Ralph. Have been flying the 600b for 4 yrs. It is 200-0012. Just did the 430w connection for gps source. Already ran the faa report. All is good. What else must i do? Kevin

At this point in time, just be patient. The folks are doing whatever that they can do to fast track the Global AMOC as fast as they can. As with all governmental organizations, there is always something unexpected that can throw a monkey wrench into the works.

At this point in time, if you have a 480, 4XX, 5XX, 6XX, or 7XX, I would just wait for the Global AMOC. The individual AMOC most likely won't be any faster. They'll take about the same amount of time. I'm hoping that there will be a more information we can share publically next week. Ralph and I are being spoon fed information from the FAA. Once this new agreement with a well known interest group is in place, things will be made public and will proceed very quickly.

If you don't have one of the Garmin GPS units listed above and are using a certified GPS unit or the new upgrade from NavWorx, I highly recommend going through the individual AMOC route. Typically they are supposed to go through your local FSDO first. There may be a very small window in which we can fast track it directly through the DFW ACO.

I will be at OSH Saturday though Thursday morning, camping in HBC. If you want to meet, please send me an email. PMs will most likely be read after OSH.
 
AMOC Update

Just got a question regarding my AMOC request...here's the response I provided:

In order to comply with the provisions contained in paragraph (e)(1)(iv)(B), I plan to place a placard in the aircraft next to the connection interface to the ADS600B that states: "OPERATION USING THE INTERNAL POSITION SOURCE IS PROHIBITED. USE OF THE GNS430W EXTERNAL POSITION SOURCE IS REQUIRED."

If you are submitting an individual AMOC, substitute your external position source for my GNS430W entry.

The fact they are asking questions at this level should be an indication as to how close they are to completing my approval!
 
Would it not be simpler to just say:
OPERATION USING THE INTERNAL POSITION SOURCE IS PROHIBITED. USE OF THE EXTERNAL POSITION SOURCE IS REQUIRED.

That way everybody could use the same placard. It's not like the external position source is ever going to be different for the pilot. Any changes in the aircraft's future configuration are the responsibility of the maintenance person.
 
Would it not be simpler to just say:
OPERATION USING THE INTERNAL POSITION SOURCE IS PROHIBITED. USE OF THE EXTERNAL POSITION SOURCE IS REQUIRED.

That way everybody could use the same placard. It's not like the external position source is ever going to be different for the pilot. Any changes in the aircraft's future configuration are the responsibility of the maintenance person.

You would have to specify that the external position source is a certified accepted one - either by model number or reference to the TSO covering it.
 
Placard

David,

I agree with your response from a global perspective - mine is being approved as an individual AMOC, not a global one. The Global AMOC, when published, should provide for language for whatever alternative approved devices are connected.

The original language in the AD referred to the only unit type certified to perform this function. Since my individual AMOC seeks to replace that specific device type with another specific device type, the consensus was to specify that device type. The initial discussion centered around entries in the POH - which we are not required to publish and/or maintain for Owner Built and Maintained aircraft so this was the compromise agreed to.

The Global AMOC, when published and accompanied by hardware (added cost) and software (added time) changes may replace the individual AMOCs for those of us that get them - but the individual AMOC provides for immediate post-2020 compliance regardless of further vendor actions or timelines. The individual AMOC may require me to stay with the current software revision until a later one is approved by a Global AMOC or AD update - meaning we may have boxed ourselves in to a corner - but it is a known corner, with known timelines, costs, and features!

This is a great product at an initially great price and I want to use it long-term - without waving my checkbook every time I turn around!
 
If your external source fails for some reason, would you switch to the internal source, or fly with no ADS-B position reporting? Is switching something that could be done in flight?
 
Switching in flight

Based on the way this system is designed and usually installed, it takes an external computer to reconfigure the GPS source - something that you would not do in flight!
 
In talking with Bill at OSH, he shared the following:

  1. He has applied to the FAA for a Global AMOC. This has nothing to do with the activities that Ralph and I have mentioned previously on VAF. He actually voiced his frustration that somebody else would submit an AMOC.
  2. He stated he can't sell the new units, upgrades, or release 5.0 until the AMOC is approved by the FAA.

In thinking about our conversation, it started to bug me quite a bit. Bill's comment was why would anyone submit an AMOC independently since he clearly wasn't going out of business. I think that's the perception that he doesn't understand. Due to Bill's complete lack of communications, failure to return voice mail or email. I've had similar issues with Scott Edwards. Since there were no updates for months on end, what other conclusions would a normal individual come to?

If Bill had simply stated that he needs to get a Global AMOC approved, but the schedule is outside his span of control due to the FAA process, it would have most likely appeased most folks. If he was transparent and just communicate what he was working on and trying to get done, most folks to would trust him and extend to him the courtesy of trusting in his efforts. Unfortunately, since he chose not to communicate his direction, intent, or next steps, most folks were extremely frustrated.

I'm share with him my frustration, specifically the problem with the display port 2 not being able to transmit traffic or weather. He stated that would be resolved with 5.0 of the software.

To be honest, I'm still sitting on the fence about proceeding with the upgrades. I've got my unit working with the GTN-650 and an individual AMOC (hoping a Global AMOC coming later). So I'll be compliant soon. I'll have to study the upgrade later to see if it makes sense for me to purchase. My concern would be that if you don't get the upgrade, some future release of the software may not function properly.
 
I have been watching this from the sidelines still deciding what direction to take. I had originally planned to install the Navworx EXP unit and my normal luck with this sort of thing should have resulted in me sharing the suffering with so many of you. However, for some unknown reason I waited this time...

I have to say that at this point I doubt that I would choose a Navworx product regardless of the ultimate outcome of all of this, and the main reason for that is the inexcusable way in which Navworx have conducted themselves especially in the area of customer communication.

All companies make mistakes. It's what you do after the mistake that separates one company from another.

Bruce
 
Along with an airplane deal I wound up with a Navworx -EXP brand new in the box. So, what should I do with it? :confused::confused::confused:
 
Along with an airplane deal I wound up with a Navworx -EXP brand new in the box. So, what should I do with it? :confused::confused::confused:

Follow the lead of the manufacturer:
1. Talk as if you know what you're doing.
2. Make lots of promises.
3. Collect money from a buyer, but don't send him anything.
4. After a while, send him the box but tell him he can't use it.
 
Unfortunately that seems to be the way of things.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I was hoping Bill would pull his head out and save the day for the good of the community, it appears that's not going to happen.
 
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