What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Midwest LSA expo

Jshepherd

Member
Any other 12 owners / builders going to the midwest LSA expo this weekend? It will be my first chance to see, sit in a completed 12. Looking forward to checking it out.
 
I will be there with the Van's demo RV-12. Hope to arrive on Wednesday evening, but the weather is looking like it will be Thursday afternoon due to a cold front between here and there.

Vic
 
Last edited:
Yes, the iS is back in Oregon and Vic will be flying the Garmin RV-12 N112VA.

I flew the iS back and forth to OSH. There are some definite improvements in the iS configuration, but they both fly the same. If you're thinking about either the iS or ULS RV-12, the one Vic is bringing and demo flying will still let you know what the airplane is all about.....the flying.
 
Hi Mitch, I'm headed to the factory from NY next week with the Mrs, to visit the factory and Synergy and was curious to see if it was there. I forgot to ask Jose when I last spoke with him. I was going to jump down to fly the with Vic, but the opportunity and time arose to visit OR. I'm glad I might get a chance to look at the iS, as we were unable to get to AirVenture this year..

We are looking forward our visit.
 
The iS is at the factory and would love to have you fly it. It will be here and waiting.
 
At expo

Really wonderful and silky-smooth 4-hour flight in the RV-12 up to KMVN this morning! I even had to hand fly it all the way as the autopilot wasn't working. Actually it was kind of a treat. Really a sweet airplane with awesome visibility!

The cool thing was that I had sent a message to Brian Hupe at Garmin regarding the autopilot. Lo and behold, Brian comes walking out to the airplane when I landed. One quick S/W download and the autopilot is now working! Most likely caused by me on the last s/w load, but that sure was great service! Kudos to Brian. :)

Vic
 
Last edited:
Show the Van's flag

For those of you looking for somewhere to go today or tomorrow, you should come over to the Expo at KMVN. I'm not normally at an aviation event in this part of the country so it would be really nice to meet those of you who are close to here.

I also think it would be great for the attendees here to see the breadth, depth, and loyalty of the Van's builders and pilots. It's a major differentiator from the other Light Sport vendors.

Vic
 
At 5400 rpm I was showing 116-118 knots and fuel burn of 4.7-4.9 gph. That was at gross weight.

Vic

Figuring 19.8 gallons/4.8 gph = 4.125 hours.... x 117 knots x 1.15 mph/knot = a range of 555 miles. That is about what I would expect, and substantially better than the downgraded numbers (433 miles) that Van's now claims for the RV-12.
 
Figuring 19.8 gallons/4.8 gph = 4.125 hours.... x 117 knots x 1.15 mph/knot = a range of 555 miles. That is about what I would expect, and substantially better than the downgraded numbers (433 miles) that Van's now claims for the RV-12.


Perhaps I am reading your post wrong, but there's no way I would calculate "range" assuming dry tanks. That would be a real pucker factor for me. :)
I know the regs say we need 30 minutes of fuel remaining for day VFR for planning purposes, but I always land with 1 hour of fuel in the tanks, no matter what I am flying. You just never know if the the ruwway gets closed upon your arrival and you have to divert, or stronger winds than forecast, etc.

That's just my practice and in no way meant to be judgmental of others. :)

Vic
 
Perhaps I am reading your post wrong, but there's no way I would calculate "range" assuming dry tanks. That would be a real pucker factor for me. :)
I know the regs say we need 30 minutes of fuel remaining for day VFR for planning purposes, but I always land with 1 hour of fuel in the tanks, no matter what I am flying. You just never know if the the ruwway gets closed upon your arrival and you have to divert, or stronger winds than forecast, etc.

That's just my practice and in no way meant to be judgmental of others. :)

Vic

Hear hear!! It has only happened to me once, but the pucker factor is very uncomfortable when you calculate fuel down to the last 30 minutes, and then something unforscene shows it ugly face. It's a minimum one hour of fuel remaining for me as well. ..............Tom
 
I thought it was a pretty good turnout, but to be fair it was my first time at this one. I think it will grow in the future as word gets out. Personally, I liked the "slower" pace as I felt I could spend more quality time with each interested party.

Vic
 
I thought it was a pretty good turnout, but to be fair it was my first time at this one. I think it will grow in the future as word gets out. Personally, I liked the "slower" pace as I felt I could spend more quality time with each interested party.

Vic

I still need to come down to the Vihlen's and meet you!
 
I stated above: Figuring 19.8 gallons/4.8 gph = 4.125 hours.... x 117 knots x 1.15 mph/knot = a range of 555 miles. That is about what I would expect, and substantially better than the downgraded numbers (433 miles) that Van's now claims for the RV-12.

Perhaps I am reading your post wrong, but there's no way I would calculate "range" assuming dry tanks. That would be a real pucker factor for me. :)
I know the regs say we need 30 minutes of fuel remaining for day VFR for planning purposes, but I always land with 1 hour of fuel in the tanks, no matter what I am flying. You just never know if the the ruwway gets closed upon your arrival and you have to divert, or stronger winds than forecast, etc.

That's just my practice and in no way meant to be judgmental of others. :)

Vic

Vic, in the Section 5-6 of the RV-12 POH under 'Cruise Performance,' dated 03/07/16, in which the rightmost column is titled 'Range' it say below:

'NOTES: 1) No fuel allowance is made for take-off, climb, descent, or reserve.'

That is the only consistent way I know of calculating and publishing range numbers and that is apparently the way Van's did it.
 
Last edited:
Marketing Department versus Engineering Department

I stated above: Figuring 19.8 gallons/4.8 gph = 4.125 hours.... x 117 knots x 1.15 mph/knot = a range of 555 miles. That is about what I would expect, and substantially better than the downgraded numbers (433 miles) that Van's now claims for the RV-12.



Vic, in the Section 5-6 of the RV-12 POH under 'Cruise Performance,' dated 03/07/16, in which the rightmost column is titled 'Range' it say below:

'NOTES: 1) No fuel allowance is made for take-off, climb, descent, or reserve.'

That is the only consistent way I know of calculating and publishing range numbers and that is apparently the way Van's did it.

I guess RV-12 pilots are expected to air launch their airplanes and do a Bob Hoover Shrike Commander arrival!

The engineer in me would still like to see a competent and accurate answer to Alan's range question posted here and in the previously closed thread.
 
On the first leg of the trip to the Expo I flew 2.7 hours and put in 15.4 gallons of fuel when I landed. The routing was from GA04 to KCTJ and a landing at KHVC. My figures show that as 276NM.

We were at gross weight (1320 lbs) and climbed to 3500' for most of the trip. Midway through the trip we climbed to 4500' for about 35 minutes for radar coverage (I always use flight following). RPM's were at 5400 for most of the trip, except climbs and descents.

That's as accurate as you are going to get from me for now. :) All of the other legs had demo flights on either end without filling up.

I think this particular 912 is running overly rich, as the EGT is low at 1100-1200 degrees. Rotax recommended is in the 1400's. On my Kitfox's with the 912 I did experiment with the positioning of the needle clips and was able to achieve the recommended EGT's. I have not had time to experiment with this one yet.

Vic
 
I guess RV-12 pilots are expected to air launch their airplanes and do a Bob Hoover Shrike Commander arrival!

The engineer in me would still like to see a competent and accurate answer to Alan's range question posted here and in the previously closed thread.

Krea, because there are so many possible variables, range numbers are generally given based upon the total amount of usable fuel. It can easily be calculated by flying for one hour at the desired altitude and conditions and precisely metering fuel consumption, then using the distance covered after correcting for any wind, and the airspeed to calculate the range.

It is up to the individual pilot to allow for normal consumption for takeoffs and landings and to determine how much reserve to allow beyond their expected landing time for unforeseen circumstances. Personally, 30 minutes would not be good enough. I would feel much more comfortable with a minimum of an hour of reserve fuel.
 
Last edited:
Understood

Krea, because there are so many possible variables, range numbers are generally given based upon the total amount of usable fuel. It can easily be calculated by flying for one hour at the desired altitude and conditions and precisely metering fuel consumption, then using the distance covered after correcting for any wind, and the airspeed to calculate the range.

It is up to the individual pilot to allow for normal consumption for takeoffs and landings and to determine how much reserve to allow beyond their expected landing time for unforeseen circumstances. Personally, 30 minutes would not be good enough. I would feel much more comfortable with a minimum of an hour of reserve fuel.

Most certified airplanes that I've flown provide range data with takeoff, climb and descent included. The conditions assumed are provided (for example - one 170 pound pilot). Sometimes, a specified reserve is also included. To me, providing range data that has no provision for takeoff, climb and descent is ambigous and basically useless. That information has no bearing on any possible operation of the aircraft. If you give me a fuel burn for takeoff, climb, cruise and descent, then I can figure range with my personal reserves. I certainly don't need Boeing or even Cessna type charts.
 
Last edited:
On the first leg of the trip to the Expo I flew 2.7 hours and put in 15.4 gallons of fuel when I landed. The routing was from GA04 to KCTJ and a landing at KHVC. My figures show that as 276NM.

We were at gross weight (1320 lbs) and climbed to 3500' for most of the trip. Midway through the trip we climbed to 4500' for about 35 minutes for radar coverage (I always use flight following). RPM's were at 5400 for most of the trip, except climbs and descents.

That's as accurate as you are going to get from me for now. :) All of the other legs had demo flights on either end without filling up.

I think this particular 912 is running overly rich, as the EGT is low at 1100-1200 degrees. Rotax recommended is in the 1400's. On my Kitfox's with the 912 I did experiment with the positioning of the needle clips and was able to achieve the recommended EGT's. I have not had time to experiment with this one yet.

Vic

I'm in the 1200 range with a 40-100 degree dif burning roughly 5.7 at 5400. What do the carb mixture screws do for us?
 
Nothing,leave them alone. Should be set at factory. They will adjust the idle mixture if you needed.
 
Nothing,leave them alone. Should be set at factory. They will adjust the idle mixture if you needed.


I don't think "nothing" is the right answer regarding the carb screws. The idle mixture is usually adjusted when doing a carb sync, which should be checked annually.

The egt's are adjusted as per the manual by adjusting the clips on the needle inside the carb. The proper range is around 1470 F with a max of 1560 F for cruise and a max of 1616 F for takeoff.

I know it might sound a little picky, but I used to adjust my 912's between summer and winter flying as it made a big difference.

Vic
 
I find all the discussion regarding the range of the -12 somewhat amusing. I'm not picking on anyone, but if you fly the -12 much cross country, you find that the ACTUAL range on any particular leg of flight is strongly impacted by cruise RPM, altitude, winds aloft, weight, and temperature. This took a little getting used to when I moved from the Rocket or other RV models to the -12.

When I planned a flight, I rarely landed at the airport I originally planned. I usually encountered flight conditions different than what the flight planning software thought and thus my range was either diminished or extended accordingly.

The simplest thing to do was to head in the direction I wanted to do, fly for an hour or so, reset the fuel computer to the actual fuel level in the tank, and then recalculate my current range with my current fuel. All this is easy to do with the Dynon. I then took full advantage of the airport information stored in the Dynon to find an airport that was acceptable to me given my desired services and reserves.

Only once did I encounter a problem and that was out West on Memorial Day when the airport I landed at had inoperable fuel pumps. I had to squeeze into the next airport with marginal fuel remaining.

You can consistently see 4.5 to 4.9 GPH at 5400-5500 RPM. How that translates into range is a day to day thing.
 
With all the restricted airspace in the southwest and wide open spaces a busted fuel pump at an FBO can easily leave you stranded if you cut margins close out here. I landed at a small strip near Monument Valley for gas, and the couple running the place were like shut-ins. They were ecstatic to see an unfamiliar face to talk to. Things can get pretty isolated. Not like the good old days when I learned to fly in Illinois with an airport every 50 miles in every direction.
 
Why not just have fun?

I think Randy has the absolute right attitude towards the RV-12! To me it seems the 12 is an airplane that will fly for 2-3 hours and still have a comfortable amount of fuel left. Yes, it's nice to flight plan for a destination, but with a fun airplane like the 12 it's OK to just "look out the window and see where we are" in 2-3 hours. It's the way I flew the Kitfoxes all the time on trips, and sometimes you get to land at an airport that you hadn't even thought of and end up meeting some of the nicest people. We did just that on the trip to the Expo, on both legs landing at airports just a little farther down the skyway than I had planned when we departed, due primarily to winds not being exactly as forecast. I don't push the fuel to stretch the leg as I still land with an hour of fuel remaining.

I like making the last leg of a trip the shortest leg, especially when landing at a potentially busy airport with an event. So I will push for a longer leg on the first part rather than split the trip into 2 equal parts. I find it more relaxing to arrive at a busy place while somewhat rested, hopefully thinking more clearly and not making a short-sighted decision in case of a fouled runway.

Vic
 
Back
Top