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Landing an RV-8

biggles

Member
I am interested in landing experiences from fellow 8 owners.

Our 8 has a 200hp engine fitted with an Airclaw f/p prop. We typically approach at 80mph and mostly always go for a 3 point.

The problem is closing the throttle in the flair the plane turns into a brick and has been known to drop 2ft.
Keeping a trickle of power on can see you skipping down the runway.
I have tried many techniques but there seems no consistent way of achieving nice landings

Do other owners have similar experiences?
Do you always use full flap?
 
You're not alone in struggling to find the "graceful" way to 3-point an RV-8.

I'm surprised to hear your airplane drops suddenly, as I can't get mine to a stall attitude without hitting the tailwheel well before the mains.

If I try to land on all three wheels at once, the problem I have is that the wing isn't ready to quit flying and I have trouble predicting where it's going to dart next.

I find that the airplane is very easy to wheel land, and I nearly always make a "tail low" wheel landing with the tailwheel about 6 inches or so off the runway.

With most other taildraggers I have flown, the 3-point landing is usually easier and feels more natural, but the -8 definitely likes to be wheeled on.

The airspeed with the "tail-low but not 3-point" attitude is only a few knots faster than full stall, so runway length rarely becomes an issue. The extra control authority at the slightly higher speed makes it much easier to "nail" a smooth landing, IMHO.

Any extra power carried into the flare will make the airplane more difficult to land, especially with a FP prop.
 
Landing the 8

My 8 also has a 200hp with f/p Prince prop. I fly final at 70kts if smooth and have the power at about 1000-1100 rpm as needed and pull power to idle over the threshold. I usually make wheel landings and this gives me enough to play with a bit. If I'm making 3 pt landings I will slow on short final to 65kts and idle as needed and hold it off until landing. Never has dropped when I pull power if I'm on speed. Of course, this is all calm, not much wind.

I almost always used full flaps because it's easier to control speed. Of course, practicing no and partial flaps is recommended.
 
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flyeyes said:
You're not alone in struggling to find the "graceful" way to 3-point an RV-8.

I'm surprised to hear your airplane drops suddenly, as I can't get mine to a stall attitude without hitting the tailwheel well before the mains.

If I try to land on all three wheels at once, the problem I have is that the wing isn't ready to quit flying and I have trouble predicting where it's going to dart next.

I find that the airplane is very easy to wheel land, and I nearly always make a "tail low" wheel landing with the tailwheel about 6 inches or so off the runway.

With most other taildraggers I have flown, the 3-point landing is usually easier and feels more natural, but the -8 definitely likes to be wheeled on.

The airspeed with the "tail-low but not 3-point" attitude is only a few knots faster than full stall, so runway length rarely becomes an issue. The extra control authority at the slightly higher speed makes it much easier to "nail" a smooth landing, IMHO.

Any extra power carried into the flare will make the airplane more difficult to land, especially with a FP prop.

I was about to type all the above but James beat me to it. My -8 really wants to hit tail first on a "3 point" attempt. Tali-low wheel landings for me, thanks.

John Clark
RV-8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Another Vote...

Ditto what James said....I almost always land tail-low wheelies, unless dealing with a VERY short strip.

I have experienced the "sudden tail drop airplane falls out from under you" landing when the CG is very far aft, but not very often since I learned to expect it.

Paul
 
Landing an -8

biggles said:
I am interested in landing experiences from fellow 8 owners.

We typically approach at 80mph and mostly always go for a 3 point.

The problem is closing the throttle in the flair the plane turns into a brick and has been known to drop 2ft.

Do you always use full flap?

My -8 is 180 hp with constant speed prop so the results may vary a bit, but I doubt by very much. I also use 80 mph on final, full flaps, always carry some power and just about always wheel land. The -8 just doesn't want to three-point. Why? Well for one thing it's nose heavy and that 200hp piece of iron up front ain't helping. In my case, I'm about 170 pounds and with no one in back, the airplane really doesn't want to three point. At best, I can get the tailwheel first followed quickly by the mains. With someone in back it's easier, but still not what the airplane likes to do.

And if you want to see an airplane drop like a stone, try a no power, no flaps landing and flare just a tad too much. Those can look more like carrier landings sans tailhook. I was practicing simulated dead stick landings the other day and I really noticed the heaviness of the nose and how quickly the flight characteristics change as you flare. Gotta pay close attention and don't rush things. Try it. It's good practice.

With the flat steel gear on the -8, my opinion is that you're better off wheel landing anyway. You maintain much more control until the airplane slows to a manageable speed. The only trick is the transition as the tail comes down, so I try to always let it come down on its own and then work the rudders. Any time I try to force the tail down too soon, the airplane wants to take a sudden excursion to either the left or right.

Unlike the previous commentors, I land with the tail as level as possible not tail low. If the tail is low you have to force it up again with the stick once you touch down to plant the mains and keep control as the airplane slows. So just start out level and save the extra effort. Just the way I learned I guess.

Sorry for the ramble. Hope this helps some.

Chris
 
Chris said it pretty well. Different engines and props, along with heavy and light pilots will make various RV-8's handle differently. The Doll has the heavy IO360-A1B6 Hartzel combination and is probably as nose heavy as any four cylinder Lycoming powered 8.

The Doll does not like to three point, and getting greaser landings that way is difficult. I have done it, but never with any consistency. Like the others, the Doll loves to wheel land, and is very docile doing so. If you hold her off until the tail is low, with too much sink rate, it is easy to "skip" off the runway as the wing is still flying, and the spring steel gear will make the runway feel like hitting a trampoline. Like Chris said, if you touch down in a near level attitude, most of the fight is removed. Another plus is the visability over the nose is perfect. Consistent grease jobs are not only possible, but easy to accomplish. The lower the tail is at touch down, the greater the difficulty, until you reach a three point touchdown, and the aircraft dances around with plenty of chirping from the tires. I haven't keep a log, but in the 900 hours I've flown the Doll I have probably made two thousand landings. I still enjoy every new attempt.

Remember to hold the aircraft level after landing, feeding in down elevator as the aircraft slows until the tailwheel lowers on it's own, then pin it down with full aft stick.

Happy Landings,
 
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wheelies...

Ditto for me - wheelie. I-360 - 180hp w/Hartzell BA CS. I am an old school east coast flyer - 3 pointer normally with no power, but not in the -8. It really resists it and it wheels on almost effortlessly. Unless I am trying to get in a short strip, I wheel it on. Whenever I 3 point it, it just wants to skip a bit as I can't fully stall the wing in that attitude.

Incidentally, when solo (towards the forward end of the CG envelope), I always fly with some secured ballast (about 40#) in the rear baggage area in the -8 to help reduce stick forces at slow speed. I run out of trim below 90. I spoke with Vans and they use about 25# of ballast in their RV-8a when solo.

And I usually keep just a smidge of throttle in - mostly because my fuel injection system likes to spit and sputter trying their best to deal with the CS prop maintaining RPM and sucking in raw fuel when the throttle plate is closed. If you looked at the throttle lever, you would swear it is closed, but just a crack is enough to avoid the sputter. I see about 1900-2000 rpm (and basically no MP)with full flaps and 90mph.

From years of flying hyper bipes around, I remain high and tight and use 90mph for final since I can lose that speed easily with the CS prop and full flaps and a slip if needed. I like to keep some money in the bank....
 
On this topic. Who here consistently lands with no flaps?

What are the key differences in touch down speeds and handling without flaps?
 
Most of the time I only use flaps for speed brakes. But then again, most of my operation is from a 9000' concrete runway.

Landing without flaps - speeds are greater (really!) and handling is more crisp. Gives you more time to float along working on a smooth touchdown. Like I said above, most of mine are on long concrete, so I value a smooth touchdown more than getting it stopped in less than 5-6000'.

Probably said already, but the RVs sink when slow. They sink faster when slow with flaps. You get down to Vso at >0-agl, you better have your energy well managed. Doesn't matter if you're at 5' agl and really intended to do a nice, slow full-flap landing, it's going to quit flying when you hit Vso. It does "hang" a little better, as it should, with a little added slipstream.

My short-field/full-flap technique includes spooling up the engine to 10-1100 rpm (can't recall specifics - I just do it by sound & feel) at about 10' agl or just before I start the final flare.

I almost never land 3-pt. Just no reason for me. Would I teach it and require proficiency in transition training? Yes. But when I want to get stopped quick, I pull the power & retract the flaps as soon as I get the mains planted and start coming in with the brakes all simultaneously. Try doing that with your flap switch on the panel! Tail doesn't get planted until I've been able to get the flaps up and slow 10-15 below touchdown speed. All this to keep weight on the mains and more effective braking.

Disclaimer - don't be braking substantially with the tail off the ground until you know what you're doing! As with any conventional gear airplane, they will go over if you get carried away with the brakes.
 
cross winds and bumpy grass runways

everyone says avoid 3 pointing an 8

what about in cross winds?

or grass runways?

we dont all have the luxury of 9000ft of smooth hard
 
biggles said:
everyone says avoid 3 pointing an 8

what about in cross winds?

or grass runways?

we dont all have the luxury of 9000ft of smooth hard

Hi Biggles.

I understand that paved runways are less prevalent in your part of the world. I'm based on a paved, 3800' strip, but usually make the first turnoff (900') with light braking. I land on grass fairly often, but avoid rough strips because I think they are hard on the wheelpants.

As long as you aren't landing way too fast, the slow "wheelie" really doesn't require much more runway than a full stall and gives you better control.

In a stout crosswind, I wheel it on at a slight higher than normal airspeed. The RV-8 has an enormous rudder and is a very good crosswind airplane.
 
biggles said:
everyone says avoid 3 pointing an 8

what about in cross winds?

or grass runways?

we dont all have the luxury of 9000ft of smooth hard
The first 3-4 years (4-500 hrs) of my RV's life was at a 2000' grass strip where I landed about the same as on pavement. It was cross with the prevailing wind and heavily crowned. I rarely landed 3-pt there as well. But I did use more flaps than on long, hard surface runways.
 
Easier than the -7

My experience in my mate Gerry's RV-8 (80hrs) is much the same as described by others- though I haven't played around with flapless landings.

My -7, however, I find more difficult to three point as you cannot see over the nose when in the three point attitude- which you can in the eight.

For this reason I always take a crosswind from the right, if there are cross runways, as it screws the nose out to the right and I can see THE END OF THE RUNWAY, which we all know is where we should be looking.

It the wind is down the strip or calm, I often get a small skip as others have experienced.

If on the otherhand after the skip, I find the aircraft back 3' or more off the ground (not so much because of a bounce but rather because it just won't stop flying) then I add a trickle of power which makes it easier to fly it back down to mother earth.

When this happens I am always reminded of my collegues who flew the B727, of which they said, "You haven't finished with the engines until you have finished with the wings."


Pete.
 
Maybe its not really relevant as I fly a 7, but here goes. I only do 3 pointers. Almost always touch the tailwheel first. If I skip ,I gently pull back on the stick as it skips and re-flare basically for the second landing. Never do I add power or check stick forward. I tried this in the past and it really screws things up for me.

I have tried wheelers and find that I bounce like a Kangaroo ever second landing. So I purposely give them a miss. Lack of experience I guess.

So 3 pointers it is for me. Keep the stick all the way back after touchdown and work that rudder. No groundloop yet. Touch wood.

But then again I only have 30 hours or so on tailwheels, so I am probably the last person to give advice.
icon10.gif
 
Comparing -8 to -7 wheel landings

rv72004 said:
Maybe its not really relevant as I fly a 7, but here goes. I only do 3 pointers. Almost always touch the tailwheel first. If I skip ,I gently pull back on the stick as it skips and re-flare basically for the second landing. Never do I add power or check stick forward. I tried this in the past and it really screws things up for me.

img]http://www.vansairforce.com/community/images/icons/icon10.gif[/img]

The -8 is the only one of Van's airplanes to have the flat steel gear. It's much stiffer than the tubular gear. Even the -8A doesn't have the flat steel. It makes all the difference in the world when wheel landing.

Your -7 has the tubular gear. It tends to flex and then spring back upon impact (I mean landing) so it's not surprising that wheel landings are a bit more challenging. My observation on the non-8 tailwheel airplanes is that pilots tend to land them three point or tail low.

Chris
 
rv72004 said:
Maybe its not really relevant as I fly a 7, but here goes. I only do 3 pointers. Almost always touch the tailwheel first. If I skip ,I gently pull back on the stick as it skips and re-flare basically for the second landing. Never do I add power or check stick forward. I tried this in the past and it really screws things up for me.

I have tried wheelers and find that I bounce like a Kangaroo ever second landing. So I purposely give them a miss. Lack of experience I guess.

So 3 pointers it is for me. Keep the stick all the way back after touchdown and work that rudder. No groundloop yet. Touch wood.

But then again I only have 30 hours or so on tailwheels, so I am probably the last person to give advice.
icon10.gif

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. My limited experience with the -7 wheel landing thrill is likewise. The full stall, staight ahead, 3 pointer is a piece of cake, although the tail wheel does make contact first. It does a couple little pogos and then stays glued to the ground. Directional control is OK.

It seems all tail draggers have a preferred landing attitude, be it 2 point or 3 point, although guys with lots of experience do it well either way. It's nice to know which the airpane prefers. Some of the WWII fighters were always wheel landed, some not. The BF-109 was very tricky as many were lost on landing - that's one reason so many were built. The FW-190 was much more forgiving. I know a pilot (then age 21, now 84) who flew -51's out of Italy. One guy in their outfit cart wheeled 2 -51's on landing and did not get a scratch.

(If anyone is interested, "Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs" is an excellent reference on the 52nd Fighter Group in WWII with many photos and daily combat reports. My friend was in the 4th squadron and is mentioned in the book.)

In the event I build the cool 8, I've saved this thread in PDF format as it is an excellent reference on landing the 8.
 
A little off topic, but how do you save threads as a .pdf? That would be a useful way to reference things...

T.
 
PDF

DD is running on a Macintosh, so PDF is built in. If you're hamstrung with Windoze, you'll need to download and install software like PrimoPDF (http://www.primopdf.com/), then you do file, print, and select the PrimoPDF printer.
 
Great Book

David-aviator said:
(If anyone is interested, "Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs" is an excellent reference on the 52nd Fighter Group in WWII with many photos and daily combat reports. My friend was in the 4th squadron and is mentioned in the book.)


David, It's funny you mention "Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs". I also have an uncle written about in that book telling his story of being shot down and missing and presumed dead for 10 weeks after being saved by an underground group in Yugslovia. In fact he is talking now with the folks that are putting on the Gathering of Legends (http://www.gml2007.com/) about participating in the event in September at Rickenbacker. I know I'll be there. Already have hangar, hotel and rent car.
Everyone should look into going. Over a hundred P-51's will attend.

And just so I stay on thread, Wheel landing my 8 is my preferred method. Kind of makes me feel like a 51 driver..
 
On the note of different gear handling different in landings. what about the optional Grove Airfoil Gear? Does it land any different than stock RV-8 gear?
 
As we touched down solidly on my trial flight the P1 commented that the landing was "just about OK", in a way which I later realised meant that normally it was a somewhat hit and miss afair.

A hundred hours later in my own 8, I had a range of techniques for a range of conditions and could generally nail a satisfactory landing on short strips.

Discussion with other strip pilots confirmed my opinion that the 8 with a C/S prop can be interesting to land especially solo without rear ballast.

My advise is to trial a range of flap settings and speeds depending on the length of strip that you are landing in, and vary your technique according to the gross weight and how short you wish to land. It will be a numbers game as the aircraft lacks the real feedback that you need for finess.

Although landing the 8 can be a challenge - it is an unrewarding process in many respects - it never provides a real "Stick and rudder" feel.

It is more "process than art" :)

Nic
 
Poetic Expression.

Skyhi said:
Although landing the 8 can be a challenge - it is an unrewarding process in many respects - it never provides a real "Stick and rudder" feel.

It is more "process than art" :)

Nic

Well put Nic.
Pete.
 
Bag it and Sell it

Skyhi said:
Although landing the 8 can be a challenge - it is an unrewarding process in many respects - it never provides a real "Stick and rudder" feel.

It is more "process than art" :)

Nic

Nic:

My favorite aviation saying is the one about any landing you can walk away from is a good one. This one sounds like an crook, I mean politician running for public office. Although I do not agree with your evauation, I love your eloquent use of the written word. Your comment reminds me of one of those silver toungue devils, I mean attorneys!
 
Well said Robby,

I don't believe Nic likes the RV-8, and I have never heard him say anything good about the aircraft. That's fine. Everyone's opinion is respected here. I can't speak for Nic's 8 but the Doll communicates just fine. The pilot has to be listening I guess.

N80434 does not have any kind of electronic stall warning. i.e. horns, bells, lights, or even AOA, but she is so good about communicating with me, non of those things are needed. The much talked about tail shake is there just before stall, and I can fly her right on the edge of it with no fear of departure.

With experience, even the airspeed indicator could be inop, and safe approaches and landings could be made. One day I landed with no A/S indication because of a poor preflight. I failed to remove the pitot cover, and was climbing out before I figured it out. It was really no big deal. I flew the aircraft by feel, and made a normal landing.
 
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Communication

I agree Danny. "Sunshine" communicates very well and has a fairly large vocabulary. :) If you are on your game listening, feeling, and "at one" with the airplane she will cooperate. Display a little inattention and she will look over her shoulder and smack you. Seriously, it is a light, well balanced, sensitive airplane that needs some skill and practice to fly (or land) well.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
IO360-A1B6
KSBA
 
Danny King said:
snip....
With experience, even the airspeed indicator could be inop, and safe approaches and landings could be made. One day I landed with no A/S indication because of a poor preflight. I failed to remove the pitot cover, and was climbing out before I figured it out. It was really no big deal. I flew the aircraft by feel, and made a normal landing.
Not intending to highjack the thread, but I too am a member of the "have flown with the pitot cover on" club.

Unfortunately, Danny was in the flight when I did it and gave me cr@p the whole way home :D .

Back to the discussion....
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Not intending to highjack the thread, but I too am a member of the "have flown with the pitot cover on" club...
Shoot, you've just done it once? Amateur! It is certainly a non-issue in my 6.
 
Any different to other RV tailwheelers?

Is the RV8 any different to other RV tailwheelers when it comes to landing?
 
Sounds like the answer is "YES" the -8 is different than the other RVs when it comes to landing. Or, the answer could be "NO". I have never flown one but I can imagine that the same principles of tailwheel landings apply.
In learning to properly land my -9, I just applied what I learned during TW instruction in a Citabria. That is, don't flare until you are really close to the runway then hold it off and position for either a wheel landing or 3 pointer.
Usually, I land in a level flight attitude but lately I have been applying the tail low wheel landing practice and have found it to be very comfortable.
BTW, my first flight was with the pitot cover on! Fortunately, my GPS provided some ground speed reference but it still took 3 attempts to get to the right speed on final. You should see the tape!
 
VH-VRN said:
Is the RV8 any different to other RV tailwheelers when it comes to landing?

Yes and no.

The only difference in the -8 is the stiffness of the landing gear.

The round gear legs on the other models are much "softer" and more forgiving of a little extra vertical rate at the touchdown. In this way they are more like the cubs and champs that many of us transition in.

None of the RVs have much damping like the oleo struts on a champ or a T6.

The RV-8 has very stiff, springy flat steel gear legs, like any number of tailwheel Cessnas. IMHO it touches down exactly like a Cessna 120/140 when wheel landed. The Cessna 3-points better because it sits at a higher angle on the ground.

In every other possible way, the RV-8 is utterly different from the Cessna, but if you can smoothly wheel land the Cessna, you'll have no trouble with the RV-8. The RV has mush greater controla authority, more power, etc.

I find the RV-8 very satisfying to land. It can be consistently landed very smoothly and precisely, it just takes a little more attention than its brethren.

As an RV-8 owner, I find RV-6s harder to land, because the gear feel slightly "wiggly" to me.
 
flyeyes said:
Yes and no.

The only difference in the -8 is the stiffness of the landing gear.

The round gear legs on the other models are much "softer" and more forgiving of a little extra vertical rate at the touchdown. In this way they are more like the cubs and champs that many of us transition in.

None of the RVs have much damping like the oleo struts on a champ or a T6.

The RV-8 has very stiff, springy flat steel gear legs, like any number of tailwheel Cessnas. IMHO it touches down exactly like a Cessna 120/140 when wheel landed. The Cessna 3-points better because it sits at a higher angle on the ground.

In every other possible way, the RV-8 is utterly different from the Cessna, but if you can smoothly wheel land the Cessna, you'll have no trouble with the RV-8. The RV has mush greater controla authority, more power, etc.

I find the RV-8 very satisfying to land. It can be consistently landed very smoothly and precisely, it just takes a little more attention than its brethren.

As an RV-8 owner, I find RV-6s harder to land, because the gear feel slightly "wiggly" to me.
Second this. -8 has a stiffer "system", making the responses a little faster.

With the more springy gear of the -8, the bounced landing will require some positive corrective action. Add power, well timed the elevator corrective input, etc. For the new -8 pilot, the 3-pt landings would be a good start. Moving to wheel landings, you either need to be able to grease it on or be very well tuned at adding elevator input to plant the mains and stop any bounce/oscillation. Otherwise, you're going to be going for a big bouncy ride - and hopefully the front stays in the front.

I have found that once you tune your brain to providing the right input to plant the mains when wheel landing, it's no problem. Just takes a little practice.

Never flown a -120 or -140, but if you can make a nice wheel landing in a -170, a -8 would be a piece of cake. Sorry - already mentioned, but worth repeating.
 
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wheel landings for me

I've got about 400 hours in my -8, (O-360 & cs prop) and only do wheel landings. I've found that a little steeper than normal descent angle at about 80-85 (with full flaps) works well. You don't get much of a window to level off in ground effect, but the airspeed drops nicely, and a tail-high attitudes 'feels right' and the controls remain crisp. It works well in cross-winds, and I generally fly on pretty small paved strips (4-5000') and don't have any problems - I rarely use the brakes. I have done high-speed no-flap landings (touch-and-goes following practice 120kn ILS approaches) and they work well enough on a really long runway - just fly it on - but I don't think it does much for the longevity of the tires. I've also done 3-pointers, but they are really tough. I recall only one that I've greased on; it's definately something I need to do some more practice on. I've been told using ballast will help, but I don't normally (I'm about 235lb on my own).

I haven't flown enough other tail-wheels to be able to do comparisons.

Chris Happel
N127EK
3I3
 
Black and White ?

Danny, It is interesting that very few independent flight reviews that one reads in the aviation press "tell it like it is". Most of them are positive about the aircraft under test, and talking to an editor of one of the leading aviation publications, this has more than a little to do with advertising revenue. Likewise many forums of builders are extremely "pro" their own aircraft type because they have a lot invested and like positive reinforcement from their peers.

In my opinion the 8 fly's well from A2B, it rolls well but is heavy in pitch (control harmony is not great). It lands OK solo with weight in the back & doesn't so well without, the pilot ergonomics are poor and so on.....

Like any aircraft it has its good and bad points, I just prefer to tell it as it is, and I don't go along with the myth that the RV8 is the best plane ever designed. I think that builders who are likely to spend a few years of their lives bashing rivets should have the benefit of inside knowledge from all perspectives.

As regards the 8's "communications" - Yes, it is loud and clear, and cant be faulted for that, it just lacks subtlety, and that is a question of experience and feel.

Talking to open minded RV8 owners, one soon gets a clear picture of all the points (good and bad) involved in flying an 8, and I think that is the great benefit of a forum like this.

Rgds, Nic



Danny King said:
Well said Robby,

I don't believe Nic likes the RV-8, and I have never heard him say anything good about the aircraft. That's fine. Everyone's opinion is respected here. I can't speak for Nic's 8 but the Doll communicates just fine. The pilot has to be listening I guess.

N80434 does not have any kind of electronic stall warning. i.e. horns, bells, lights, or even AOA, but she is so good about communicating with me, non of those things are needed. The much talked about tail shake is there just before stall, and I can fly her right on the edge of it with no fear of departure.

With experience, even the airspeed indicator could be inop, and safe approaches and landings could be made. One day I landed with no A/S indication because of a poor preflight. I failed to remove the pitot cover, and was climbing out before I figured it out. It was really no big deal. I flew the aircraft by feel, and made a normal landing.
 
Skyhi said:
..........Likewise many forums of builders are extremely "pro" their own aircraft type because they have a lot invested and like positive reinforcement from their peers.

In my opinion the 8 fly's well from A2B, it rolls well but is heavy in pitch (control harmony is not great). It lands OK solo with weight in the back & doesn't so well without, the pilot ergonomics are poor and so on.....

Like any aircraft it has its good and bad points, I just prefer to tell it as it is, and I don't go along with the myth that the RV8 is the best plane ever designed. I think that builders who are likely to spend a few years of their lives bashing rivets should have the benefit of inside knowledge from all perspectives.

As regards the 8's "communications" - Yes, it is loud and clear, and cant be faulted for that, it just lacks subtlety, and that is a question of experience and feel.

Talking to open minded RV8 owners, one soon gets a clear picture of all the points (good and bad) involved in flying an 8, and I think that is the great benefit of a forum like this.

Rgds, Nic
Nic -

I'm trying hard to temper my pride of ownership, but do wonder if your comments about the heaviness comes from the fact that you flew with extreme fwd cg. Solo, with fwd cg, yes - it's heavy. With someone in the back seat of any reasonable size, there's nothing heavy whatsoever about the pitch control. As a matter of fact, with a 200-lb person back there it's almost too light in pitch. Which points out the fact that, for a two-seat tandem sport plane, it compromises very well between the various flying missions. Better than anything out there I'm aware of (under $500,000).

If the heavy pitch is a problem, fly with ballast strapped in the back.

Best plane ever built?! Hardly. A plane that can be had for $50-100,000, operated for $50-100/hr, does very reasonable light acro, has predictable & consistent stall/snap/spin characteristics, carries a reasonable load, carries two people, conventional construction, robust (kit) factory supported design - it's top 5, no doubt.

2 very biased cents
 
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Thanks for the input

Being new to the RV8 (one month and 15 hours) I appreciate all the landing hints.
I previously owned a RV6a (400 hours) and a Supercub (450 hours) and noticed most of all, the pitch heaviness compared to the 6a when solo.

Compared to the Supercub the rudders in the 8 are much more responsive, with just a touch needed for alignment compared to more of a stab with the Cub. Also the RV6a had a o320 fixed and the 200 horse CS RV8 wants a little more right foot on launch.

The previous owner of the RV8 liked his tailwheel chains loose so to me the rudders felt tight on the mains and loose when the tail came down. I replaced the chains with the silver bullet link and like the results. This RV still commands some attention on rollout mostly just as the tail loses control authority.

I also think the RV8 communicates very well, I tried three pointing on a short field technique and at 15 feet over the threshold the tail buffet recommended I add a touch of power and let off the back pressure.

Thanks again for all the recommendations for the RV8, it's a great airplane! This site is a great resource!

steve
 
I'm three solos and three horrific landings into my fledgling RV-8 career, so I took a step back after today's inglorious session to read this old thread. Definitely some useful information here, and everything bad that has been described has happened to me! :( Fortunately, no damage done except to my pride.

I've tried both wheel and three-point landings. None were good, but the three-pointers were definitely the worst. I'm going to stick with wheel landings for now.

The airplane is so new to me (I didn't build it) that I can't speak with authority about how heavy or light it feels to me in pitch. Frankly, it feels light as a feather in all dimensions compared to my Mooney. I got transition training in an RV-7, and so far my feeling is that the RV-8 feels much more unstable in the flare and on the rollout. I'm guessing the differences in landing gear, tailwheel and payload (there were two of us in the 7) have a lot to do with it.

Anyway, here's my question: I weigh 215lb. and always fly solo. I have a 180hp Lycoming and a Hartzel CS prop. Should I use secured ballast in the baggage compartment? If so, how much?

Thank you.
 
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I'm three solos and three horrific landings into my fledgling RV-8 career, so I took a step back after today's inglorious session to read this old thread. Definitely some useful information here, and everything bad that has been described has happened to me! :( Fortunately, no damage done except to my pride.

I've tried both wheel and three-pointer landings. None were good, but the three-pointers were definitely the worst. I'm going to stick with wheel landings for now.

The airplane is so new to me (I didn't build it) that I can't speak with authority about how heavy or light it feels to me in pitch. Frankly, it feels light as a feather in all dimensions compared to my Mooney. I got transition training in an RV-7, and so far my feeling is that the RV-8 feels much more unstable in the flare and on the rollout. I'm guessing the differences in landing gear, tailwheel and payload (there were two of us in the 7) have a lot to do with it.

Anyway, here's my question: I weigh 215lb. and always fly solo. I have a 180hp Lycoming and a Hartzel CS prop. Should I use secured ballast in the baggage compartment? If so, how much?

Thank you.

Don't know anything about adding ballast but will volunteer this comment regarding your disappointment.

I assume your landings have been bounces.

Perhaps what is going on is the CS prop is slowing the airplane too quickly making it difficult to control the final sink and touch down. I had the same problem trying to teach myself to land the 7 with a CS prop and the Subby engine. The prop was like a speed brake. I never had a chance to arrest the sink rate because the thing was slowing so quickly.

Next time, try adding just a smidgen of power as you go into the flare to better control the final sink and find the runway. It might make a difference.

PS I was so frustrated with the 7, i converted it to a 7A. Should have had a bit more instruction to figure out what was going on.
 
I'm three solos and three horrific landings into my fledgling RV-8 career, so I took a step back after today's inglorious session to read this old thread. Definitely some useful information here, and everything bad that has been described has happened to me! :( Fortunately, no damage done except to my pride.

I've tried both wheel and three-point landings. None were good, but the three-pointers were definitely the worst. I'm going to stick with wheel landings for now.

The airplane is so new to me (I didn't build it) that I can't speak with authority about how heavy or light it feels to me in pitch. Frankly, it feels light as a feather in all dimensions compared to my Mooney. I got transition training in an RV-7, and so far my feeling is that the RV-8 feels much more unstable in the flare and on the rollout. I'm guessing the differences in landing gear, tailwheel and payload (there were two of us in the 7) have a lot to do with it.

Anyway, here's my question: I weigh 215lb. and always fly solo. I have a 180hp Lycoming and a Hartzel CS prop. Should I use secured ballast in the baggage compartment? If so, how much?

Thank you.

How much weight is on your tailwheel empty? You should have a W&B but it never hurts to double check. Most -8s configured like yours have a pretty forward CG but of course they are all different.

Being based in Denver exacerbates any issues because of the higher TAS at touchdown. Limiting your flying to the cooler part of the day might help.

If you're uncomfortable, I'd strongly suggest getting more dual locally, and maybe getting someone experienced in the -8 to fly your airplane and make sure it is rigged correctly. Small errors in toe can make most taildraggers squirrelly.

The -8 is really pretty benign as far as taildraggers go, but it is different than the -7 in the touchdown and rollout. Airborne it flies pretty much the same. I've flown a -7 and 3 different -6s and find them all harder to land than the -8.

The best way to ballast the airplane aft would be 180# or so of RV-qualified CFI in the back seat. After that though, I like 25#bags of dry dog food. It's soft, not too much of a hazard in an incident, and you can throw one or two bags in the back baggage compartment and then tighten the rear seat straps. It also helps that we have big dogs and always have a lot on hand.

Some people use bags of sand, but I don't like them because they leak and sand is abrasive. Lead shot is convenient but worries me if you hit something...

I kept some weight in my baggage compartment for the first 20 hours or so, and it definitely made the airplane easier for me to adjust to. After I got more comfortable though, it just didn't seem to make much difference either way. My empty CG is a little farther aft than most in the database though.

Are you having trouble with directional control (yaw) or is it more of a pitch issue?
 
I assume your landings have been bounces.

Perhaps what is going on is the CS prop is slowing the airplane too quickly making it difficult to control the final sink and touch down. I had the same problem trying to teach myself to land the 7 with a CS prop and the Subby engine. The prop was like a speed brake. I never had a chance to arrest the sink rate because the thing was slowing so quickly.

Next time, try adding just a smidgen of power as you go into the flare to better control the final sink and find the runway. It might make a difference.

David is right about the C/S prop being a speed brake. Once mastered it can be a big help in approach and landing, but there is a learning curve. I went through the same experience years ago getting used to my '8'. I would suggest that you find a longish runway and do a some experimenting. We are talking about a tiny amount of power above idle, probably just a "zero thrust" setting, just enough to flatten the the approach angle in the last few feet. When doing a wheelie, I add a touch of power when everything looks good going over the fence and reduce it to idle as the mains touch. If your speed is correct and you add a tiny bit of forward stick on touchdown, it will be a thing of beauty. Remember, landing a taildragger is not a big deal, it just takes practice, quite a bit of practice, actually. :rolleyes:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
The -8 is the only one of Van's airplanes to have the flat steel gear. It's much stiffer than the tubular gear. Even the -8A doesn't have the flat steel. It makes all the difference in the world when wheel landing.

Your -7 has the tubular gear. It tends to flex and then spring back upon impact (I mean landing) so it's not surprising that wheel landings are a bit more challenging. My observation on the non-8 tailwheel airplanes is that pilots tend to land them three point or tail low.

Chris

Interesting! I'm building a -7 and I absolutely love doing wheelies. Nothing says "joe pilot" as much as a nicely stuck wheel landing. I do them successfully in Citabrias, but the gear there is also the flat steel type.

Can you get an after-market flat steel gear for a -7? Even the Citabria, when learning, can be quite bouncy and exciting.

Anyone do consistent wheelies in the -7?
 
Landing an RV8 or RV7 taildragger.

I have written a brief on landing the RV8.
It's too big to fit.
Here is the first part.

Pete.
Landing an RV8, or RV7 taildragger
There is some good advice in this ?Thread? regarding C of G and relative undercarriage stiffness. However, whilst these may effect the behaviour of the aircraft, getting the landing technique right will almost nullify these effects.
Landing technique.
Difficulty in landing any aeroplane is usually the result of a few easily corrected faults.
They are:
Incorrect approach speed.
Making an unstable approach with varying airspeed and power.
Apprehension causing the pilot to grip the stick fiercely, causing loss of feel of the aircraft.
Failing to look, in the flare, to the FAR END OF THE RUNWAY,
This, in my years of instructing, I have found the most common landing fault and the result of ensuring this IS done, achieves an immediate and almost magical improvement.
Dual with a flying instructor.
A few circuits with an instructor is likely to correct any flying faults. Having said that, it is really necessary to find and instructor with RV time. If this is not possible, dual with any experience RV pilot is the next best thing. Instructing is an art and takes time to acquire. Many excellent pilots can show you a great landing, but they may not be able to give you the guidance as to how to achieve it. But watching them will help.
The best approach would be to have an experienced pilot demonstrate a few landings, whilst you observe the approach angle, airspeed, flare height, hold off height, smoothness and stability of the approach. And then, for you to work towards replicating his approach and landings.
Flying RVs.
Two finger control.
RVs are very light on the controls and should therefore be flown with a very light grip on the controls. Holding the pole with the grip necessary when holding an axe whilst chopping wood, will result in very little feel and feedback from the aircraft. Hold the stick lightly and only REST your feet lightly on the rudder bar.
This may take a while to achieve and you should develop the habit of asking yourself frequently whilst flying, ?Am I using a light touch?? Relax your grip.
Practice low speed flight at altitude.
To get a feel for slow speed handling characteristics, climb to an altitude of at least 3,000?, reduce power and fly at low speed (70-80kt), carrying out some gently turns. Eventually reduce to approach power and reduce airspeed gradually until in a descent, flying a few knots above the stall. This will give you the feeling of the control available in the flare and hold-off. This is a very valuable exercise as we spend most of the time flying at high speed where RV controls are very crisp.
Rv 8 v. RV7
Use the same technique.
Despite the differences between RVs the approach and landing technique should be the same. Until you can personally detect their different flying characteristic between an RV7 & and RV8, there is little point in trying to deal with them. When you can detect them, you will deal with them almost unconsciously.
Gear stiffness.
Gear stiffness will only cause a poor landing to manifest in a different manner. That is, the amount of bounce, skip and ?RV dance?.
It shouldn?t change your technique.
Rear Centre of Gravity. (C of G)
Once again, changing the C of G should not mean a change of landing technique.
Deliberately changing the C of G may make the aircraft slightly easier to land, but if you concentrate on getting the technique right, this will become irrelevant.
Besides, moving the C of G aft makes the aircraft more prone to ground loop. I?ve seen one from the back seat of an RV8. My 90kg didn?t help.
Approach speed.
Approach speed is normally calculated as 25% higher than the stall speed, written as 1.25Vs. For an RV this means with a stall speed of 48kt the approach speed should be 48 + 12 = 60kt.
However, the very short wings on RVs produce significant ?Induced Drag? (the vortex drag from the wingtips at high angles of attack) and so there can be a significant airspeed loss in the flare. Consequently, a higher approach speed than 1.25Vs provides a useful little margin; and also is comforting if you encounter strong windshear in the flare. One day you will!
I have found that 70Kts is a more comfortable figure, but this is a personal choice and I am sure other RV drivers use a different approach speeds.
Also, a gently flare will produce less airspeed loss than a big pull which puts the wing at a higher angle of attack.
Wheeler versus three point
This comes under ?Battle Stations? as in, Tailwheel v. Nose Wheel, High-wing v. Low Wing, so I will treat it as a preference to avoid all out war However, it is well advised to be aware of the pros and cons of each.
Wheelers.
A good wheeler looks fantastic and brings the pilot great kudos. Particularly if a strong crosswind is kicked off in the flare.
However, get wrong, and you can really scare yourself. As the aircraft is still flying well above the stall in a wheeler, an even slightly firm touchdown can cause the tail to drop, the nose to pitch up and aided by the infamous RV spring undercarriage you will find the aircraft instantly climbing. But is won?t last long as the throttle is closed and the drag is high (that Induce drag again) and it will all be manifest as a bounce, or two, or three.
Three point
In a true three pointer the aircraft is stalled, so in can bounce, but not fly again.
Having said that, RVs (taildraggers) sit on the ground at an attitude less than the Stall attitude, so they are not stalled when landing in the three point attitude. (Tiger Moths can stall on, Callairs can?t. It?s all in the undercarriage geometry.) So RVs will be flying above the stall speed in a three-pointer; but only just. They may bounce, but will very quickly be below stall speed if the stick is kept back, and will settle on the ground, rolling out with the irritating ?RV dance?. But, they won?t execute a frighteningly high bounce. Unless, of course, you have dropped in on from 10?.
It?s hard to do a three pointer without a skip; but it won?t bite like a wheeler can.
Watch any youtube clips of Spitfires landing on grass and you will see the same thing. And Spit pilots don?t let there egos push them to try for a wheeler, they three point the aircraft, hold the stick back and wait for it to settle, excepting a few skips. The ?Spitfire Dance?, I suppose.

My complete brief is above the limit of the forum posts.
Contact Peter James [email protected] for complete and formatted PDF version of this brief.
 
Joe
Anyway, here's my question: I weigh 215lb. and always fly solo. I have a 180hp Lycoming and a Hartzel CS prop. Should I use secured ballast in the baggage compartment? If so, how much?
You've getting lots of good advice here. I'll try and keep mine short, and hope it does not contradict what you've seen above.
  1. RV-8 CG is hugely variable by design and load
  2. I do not agree that CG is not relevant to landing technique - solo / fwd CG a "wheeler" is easy, provided the surface is appropriate
  3. Aft CG 3 point easier, wheeler likely to bounce unless you very good/lucky
  4. When I send RV-8 convertees "solo", I put a 5gallon water barrel (full) in the rear baggage area
  5. They can then over time, reduce the amount of water in it
  6. In the US you tend to have mostly hard runways, grass less often. Over here the other way round. (Smooth) grass is far more forgiving in a taildragger for getting your confidence up if you can find some.
  7. Keep some power on longer than other types - the C/S and short wing drag can make life rather exciting. Wait until you in the landing attitude <1' above the ground, and then to idle.
  8. I do not advocate full aft stick on rollout, especially on a bumpy surface - it just puts energy into the subsequent bouncing. "Gather" stick with aft pressure, say about half back stick, and let the bouncing do its thing
  9. Be careful about flying a "speed" someone else advises you "for an RV-8". RV [Falcon] ASIs are poor quality, and static systems likewise. Unless the builder/owner has done a comprehensive calibration (difficult) it will be aircraft specific. I would suggest Full Flap Stall +15K for approach, aiming for minimum of +10K as you start the flare. With experience knock 5K off those if required...
 
David: Yes, all my landings have been bounces, followed by loss of directional control. Somehow I eventually managed to regain control, but it sure was spooky each time.

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I never cease to be amazed by the expertise and fellowship displayed on these boards.
 
Anyone do consistent wheelies in the -7?

I do almost exclusively wheel landings in my -6. It took a lot of repeated practice to get them as smooth as wheel landings in the -8, but once you've acquired the touch they can be done consistently. Every once in a while, I still encounter one that falls out of the flare a bit too quickly and wants to bounce and if there's enough runway left I can usually salvage the landing, else I pour on the power and go around to try it again.
 
Newbie

A relative newbie RV-8 pilot, but I will share my recent experiences hoping they might help.

Did my transition training with Alex, (can't recommend highly enough), and the -7 "squashes" right down when a 3 pt is executed nicely. My -8 does not feel even close.

I have done most of my early flying with 20 lbs of ballast in the back to get a near perfect center CG. I have done good 3 pointers (have the video to prove it :) )and it gives a small bounce or two. No trouble with directional control. Those were on a large runway 8k x100ft. Lots of time to let her settle. This was for the first month of flying, made me think no big deal. Then I had to fly out of home.

Now, I live on a runway that is 2500ft usable and 50ft wide with hills to either side at one end and drop offs in the middle. Throw in a quartering right crosswind, most of the time and a rotor bump a couple hundred ft out on final and the pucker factor is just now subsiding for me. I started with wheelies, no power and if all was not right, 70% of the time, I had to make numerous unplanned touch and go's. Then started using power 1500-1700 rpm which allows a slower approach and my wheelies have been greatly improved. Just like Andy said I kill the power just before touch down and then I keep the tail up until she want to come down and then pin.

I have also experienced the right directional dart when the tail comes down. Lucky for me, on the high crosswind day, it was at the level grass end of the runway. Directional control is a breeze with the tail up, but after the off runway excursion, I read these threads for tips. Some said the flaps disturb the flow to the rudder when the tail is down, so I tried putting my flaps up (stick switch) when I pin her on the ground. That made a noticeable improvement, with flaps up I find the tail down control is much better and she no longer darts away when the tail comes down.

Keep at it, and good luck to you.
 
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Interesting! ....

Can you get an after-market flat steel gear for a -7? Even the Citabria, when learning, can be quite bouncy and exciting.

...

Bill:

I do not believe it is possible (without a major engineering effort) to get a flat steel gear for the -7. For one thing the gear (on the -8) is mounted in a different position and via different hardware. Noting wrong with the -7 gear, you can get nice cushy landings with it. I've flown Doug Reeves' -6 and was pleasantly surprised by how smooth the landings can be. I'm sure you'll be able to wheel land it without problem after a little practice.

As for flat-gear on the -8, I think sometimes people forget you have to push the stick forward as the wheels touch ground to really "stick it" on. Otherwise the bouncing can begin. Those new to the -8 and its gear type are sometimes reluctant to push forward thinking they'll hit the prop. Won't happen.

Chris
 
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