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Electroair Ignition Failure

N130PM

Active Member
First, it is not my desire to flame Electroair in any way. I believe there are some data points that should be found in the archives, as I have spent the last few days searching VAF and the RV list, I think this needs to be added.

Way back in 2006 I was helping my buddy Mike Cupiole finish his 6. Being a staunch believer in Jeff Rose and his EI unit I goaded him into purchasing one. Mike was a better mech than me but it never worked. He took it out and put in a Slick and asked me if I wanted it.

5 years later I put it in my plane. No workie. Send it back, it was returned with two new coils and deemed to be OK. OK!

Flew 55 hours with it. Strange stumbling at low power while taxiing. Ran fine at first at high power then a couple of stumbles early in the flight. They were no kidding get your attention right now events. I circled the glider port for 5 minutes the first time trying to figure it out. It just stopped.

Last Saturday at Valkeria (by the way outstanding little airshow) as I raised my tail and stuck the RV down for that extra cushion of pull off speed I feel "DUUUH". It registers but I'm really busy at the time and I'm passing the shut her down and abort point, so I pull her off. Instead of flying off like she usually does, she sinks back in and bouces twice, I feel her tail drop down and then she just somehow flys off. I see I'm down 150 rpm from normal. This is new. So I just hold what I have and start looking for a place to go. Its much quieter than it usually is at this point in the flight. I find a road if need be, level out, I reach 110MPH and start a 300 fpm climb. I get to 500 feet and turn a wide base to return to Valkaria and the **** thing kicks in like an afterburner. It was ...DRAMATIC....she took off like a scalded cat and in a few seconds I was climbing at 1700 fpm. OK, so I'll climb up and see what I get. At 4500 feet I cycle the EI off and on and I do recreate what I just experienced. It was working fine and I flew home with no further pucker.

Today I received a return call from Electroair. They told me exactly what I had witnessed. I give them huge credit for not telling me that I was crazy and they never heard of such a thing. They told me the following.

When I sent my unit to them, there was no way they could duplicate the situation. Well, neither could I today. The problem is in the board, something I also knew since the Hall Effect unit was still functioning as that gives me my RPM reading and I was down 150 rpm on take off (its an enormous 150). Its an old unit and the silicon in the board degrades with time. I asked if I bought another unit, would I face this again? "Yes, in another ten years. But if you want we'll sell you another lower unit for 800 bucks. "Or, for your own piece of mind now given what happend, you might want to just put a mag in." I'll give them credit, they shot straight.

And this is the reason for the post. If you have one of these, straight from the horses mouth, it is a time sensitive component. I realize that 95% of those installed are problem free, but thats not a big comfort when you are trying to stay out of the trees at the far end. Seriously, it climbed like a Cessena 140 on a hot day. I have a Bendix on the shelf that was O/hauled with my left mag. I'll put it in, just for simple economics and the comfort of my wife who is a little freaked out.

I hope this will be helpful to someone in the future.
 
Eric,

Can you clarify what you mean by "the board"? Is it a component inside the control box that is installed in the cockpit, or a portion of another component in the system?

Also, did they tell you new units would/might/will experience the same issue over time, or is the issue just with replacement units for the same vintage as that of your system?

I ask, because they have been refining the system quite a bit over the years. Haven't heard of this issue before, but good to have the data point.

Thanks!
Bob
 
Eric,

Can you clarify what you mean by "the board"? Is it a component inside the control box that is installed in the cockpit, or a portion of another component in the system?

Also, did they tell you new units would/might/will experience the same issue over time, or is the issue just with replacement units for the same vintage as that of your system?

I ask, because they have been refining the system quite a bit over the years. Haven't heard of this issue before, but good to have the data point.

Thanks!
Bob

Yes I'm assuming its the circuit board and the components on the control box. I know they now move those inside the cockpit, but I asked him specifically if I bought a new one would it do the same. He said yes, in ten or so years. He said that even though mine was a 2006 unit the board was 10 or 12 years old. He stated that it happens with any circuitry of this type over time. I wonder if thats why its impossible to keep my 1985 big money stereo in operating order.
 
Electroair EI

I installed the system on a IO-540 six months ago. From the start I had a miss when the MAP sensor kicked in and started to advance the timing. With 20 hours on the system, the controller shorted out and became INOP. Electroair was very good in trouble shooting and sending me a new unit. The system should run very smooth all the time; if any miss or studder is present in any phase of operation, something is wrong. As a side note the harness from the factory was miss pinned, so I had a timing problem at first start. Again Electroair was very good with trouble shooting and fixing the problem; but check those pin outs on new installations. Blue Skys Barry
 
Is the unit you're having problems with a gold or purple anodized unit? The old analog gold units have been rock-solid for me and everyone I know that has them.
 
I installed the Electroair last summer and after 100+ hrs it works perfectly. Big difference from my previous dual Slick mags....more power, better fuel consumption, and clean plugs. They are working on an STC for the system and mine was one of those units. On my previous RV I had dual Lightspeed II's and had to send both units back to Klaus to be upgraded when one blew out a resistor and he charged me, both units having been flying for only a couple of months.
 
I installed an Electoair system over 10 years ago in a previous airplane and it is still running today with the follow up owner. He has had a couple hall sense problems with oil leakage and carries a spare one, but the board is still original and works. The other half is a magneto.

When a magneto goes TU here, it will be replaced with an Electroair.
 
Is the unit you're having problems with a gold or purple anodized unit? The old analog gold units have been rock-solid for me and everyone I know that has them.

Gold unit here, they are pretty much written off by E.A.

Had this not happened I was about to order ignition wires made by Aerolite in hopes of finding a cure in the wires. The things that you pin are just the cheapest things I've ever seen. If you do a search on the rv list you will find lots of talk on the unit stumbling because the wires are being run parallel. That seems kind of sad for an aircraft component.
 
Yeah I run NGK plugs so the spark plug connection is not a problem for me. I originally ran with REM37BY's but had radio noise, so I switch to automotive plugs which solved that problem.

Last summer I had to pull my engine to weld up some gear leg cracks. I put the airplane back together right before Oshkosh and just did a few short flights before we left. At altitude I felt it misfiring and the RPMs were jumping around a bit, so I shut it off and pressed on. After landing I pulled the cowl and reseated the connector to the sensor I had disconnected when doing the maintenance work and all has been well after that. Moral of the story is your problem could be minor, and its likely the variable reluctance sensor, gap, or the wiring. In all of my years of working on all things electronic I have never heard of anyone claiming silicon degradation so I don't buy that explanation for a nanosecond.

My wires are run in parallel and have zero problems. They are Taylor 8mm wires.
 
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Eric, thanks for the clarification.

Bob, my box is silver and just two years old. Are the gold/purple boxes problematic units, to your knowledge?

Mine has been very solid, 250+ hours of everything from formation to long X-C to racing. I ran parallel wires (though I was careful to keep them from touching along the run) and have 37BYs. Been lucky with no radio noise, but good to hear the swap to NGKs solved that for you Bob (in case issues appear!)

Not sure I get the silicone degradation thing either. Mike and company seem like the diligent types that would have a service interval recommendation or a SB if that was the case...especially with all the work towards certification they are doing.

I'm sure its frustrating Eric...I had a frustrating experience with the older Plasma I that came with my plane. The EA has been much better for me.

Cheers,
Bob
 
Are you saying this happened while another Electroair unit was working 100% normally?

First, it is not my desire to flame Electroair in any way. I believe there are some data points that should be found in the archives, as I have spent the last few days searching VAF and the RV list, I think this needs to be added.

Way back in 2006 I was helping my buddy Mike Cupiole finish his 6. Being a staunch believer in Jeff Rose and his EI unit I goaded him into purchasing one. Mike was a better mech than me but it never worked. He took it out and put in a Slick and asked me if I wanted it.

5 years later I put it in my plane. No workie. Send it back, it was returned with two new coils and deemed to be OK. OK!

Flew 55 hours with it. Strange stumbling at low power while taxiing. Ran fine at first at high power then a couple of stumbles early in the flight. They were no kidding get your attention right now events. I circled the glider port for 5 minutes the first time trying to figure it out. It just stopped.

Last Saturday at Valkeria (by the way outstanding little airshow) as I raised my tail and stuck the RV down for that extra cushion of pull off speed I feel "DUUUH". It registers but I'm really busy at the time and I'm passing the shut her down and abort point, so I pull her off. Instead of flying off like she usually does, she sinks back in and bouces twice, I feel her tail drop down and then she just somehow flys off. I see I'm down 150 rpm from normal. This is new. So I just hold what I have and start looking for a place to go. Its much quieter than it usually is at this point in the flight. I find a road if need be, level out, I reach 110MPH and start a 300 fpm climb. I get to 500 feet and turn a wide base to return to Valkaria and the **** thing kicks in like an afterburner. It was ...DRAMATIC....she took off like a scalded cat and in a few seconds I was climbing at 1700 fpm. OK, so I'll climb up and see what I get. At 4500 feet I cycle the EI off and on and I do recreate what I just experienced. It was working fine and I flew home with no further pucker.

Today I received a return call from Electroair. They told me exactly what I had witnessed. I give them huge credit for not telling me that I was crazy and they never heard of such a thing. They told me the following.

When I sent my unit to them, there was no way they could duplicate the situation. Well, neither could I today. The problem is in the board, something I also knew since the Hall Effect unit was still functioning as that gives me my RPM reading and I was down 150 rpm on take off (its an enormous 150). Its an old unit and the silicon in the board degrades with time. I asked if I bought another unit, would I face this again? "Yes, in another ten years. But if you want we'll sell you another lower unit for 800 bucks. "Or, for your own piece of mind now given what happend, you might want to just put a mag in." I'll give them credit, they shot straight.

And this is the reason for the post. If you have one of these, straight from the horses mouth, it is a time sensitive component. I realize that 95% of those installed are problem free, but thats not a big comfort when you are trying to stay out of the trees at the far end. Seriously, it climbed like a Cessena 140 on a hot day. I have a Bendix on the shelf that was O/hauled with my left mag. I'll put it in, just for simple economics and the comfort of my wife who is a little freaked out.

I hope this will be helpful to someone in the future.
 
Steve, no I have a Bendix w/impulse on the Left side. That kept me aloft.

On the wiring thing, I stood behind a spinning prop with the engine just running on the EI for ten minutes jiggling every connection I could reach. I could not make it miss a beat. The fact that the two times prior to Saturday, when it happened, it also happened in the first 5 minutes of the flight, then was fine the rest of the flight. Of course both times I beat feet back home and tried to convince myself it was a fouled plug, the plugs were beautifully clean, not a chance they were fouled or mis gapped.
 
Great system

I bolted one of Jeff Rose's first ignitions in my RV-4 back in the 90's. It is still running strong after nearly 15 years and 1400 hours. I duplicated the setup (one mag/one EI) in my HR2 and my RVX, again no issues whatsoever.

Total time on all three systems is over 2500 hours. My systems are all of the original design but work very well. Just a positive note for Electroair and Jeff's leading edge design, much cloned since.

Smokey
 
Bob, my box is silver and just two years old. Are the gold/purple boxes problematic units, to your knowledge?

I know a couple of guys that tried the purple boxes and had nothing but problems. Gold ones, like I have on my RV and Rocket, no problem. I don't know anything about the silver boxes.
 
I have a question not related to the failures. With a single ElectroAir system, have most folks run the spark plug wires to the bottom plugs on all cylinders?
Thanks,
Mark S.
 
Steve, no I have a Bendix w/impulse on the Left side. That kept me aloft.

While I would expect some power loss, if the Bendix is working fine, what you describe is a bit extreme I would have thought. Still, nobody else has picked up on it so perhaps my expectations of a single conventional mar are too high.

I have been on dual P-mags for a while, and while it is better to have two on than just one it pulls well on one.

Glad it kept you aloft and a safe return!
 
I have a question not related to the failures. With a single ElectroAir system, have most folks run the spark plug wires to the bottom plugs on all cylinders?
Thanks,
Mark S.

Mark, I think you will find that most people run the EI wires to the top plugs, however there isn't a compelling reason to do so in my opinion. Keep in mind that the EI wires are running a much higher voltage and the spark will be hotter and base your decision on that. Many folks like to have the shorter wires (top plugs) running the higher voltage, others want to have the bottom plugs (most likely to fowl) with the hotter spark. I chose the bottom plugs for my ElectroAir system. Been fine for 8 years now. :)
 
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on the bottom

I have a question not related to the failures. With a single ElectroAir system, have most folks run the spark plug wires to the bottom plugs on all cylinders?
Thanks,
Mark S.

Mark,
My builder put the EI plugs on the bottom. 1000 hours has run well but have replaced the RPM detector a couple times.
 
One of the guys at Van's had problems with his spark plug connectors coming loose on the bottom plugs (since the automotive wires don't have the same mechanical connection as aviation wires). He moved the wires to the top and apparently solved the problem. I took the same approach from the beginning, figuring gravity would work in favor of keeping the auto wires attached on the top plugs.
 
Crash test dummy

When you read about a pilot electing to continue a flight under these conditions it should be a warning to you all.

'she took off like a scalded cat and in a few seconds I was climbing at 1700 fpm. OK, so I'll climb up and see what I get.'

Don't try to diagnose from the cockpit in the air. I had two engine out landings on the same day for the same reason, my own foolishness. Unless you want your Obit to include 'test pilot or crash test dummy' get back on the ground as soon as possible.
 
Plug wire came loose

I have been flying my RV6 for 3 years (270 hrs.) and have only had one, maintenance related incidence with the older, brass connectors that screw onto the spark plug.
During a run up, I got a dropped cylinder and upon checking, the plug wire had fallen out of the spark plug, but the brass screwed-on connector was still on the spark plug.
I have recently replaced the EI spark plug wires and connectors with the new "aviation style" aluminum connectors. IMHO, they are much better.
Other than mentioned above, I'm a happy camper with the Jeff Rose system.
 
Installation info please

I bought an slightly used gold unit a few years ago....
Has anyone got some decent pics or info on how to install the whole shebang?
I'm not sure where to mount on the firewall, how to run the wire to the crank ring sensor...the potential pitfalls, tach & ignition wiring, use of voltmeter to monitor advance etc.
Appreciate anyone who has some tips, even 'don't do this!' warnings.
PM me if you prefer.

thx
 
Proper Installation Technique Is Critical on Automotive Style Spark Plug Wires

One of the guys at Van's had problems with his spark plug connectors coming loose on the bottom plugs (since the automotive wires don't have the same mechanical connection as aviation wires). He moved the wires to the top and apparently solved the problem. I took the same approach from the beginning, figuring gravity would work in favor of keeping the auto wires attached on the top plugs.

Just an FYI for those of you using automotive style spark plug wires on your Electronic Ignition systems [regardless of manufacturer] Often, I find that an engine miss in a customer's car is caused by improper wire installation technique after an "owner" tune up.
Modern automotive ignition wires have spark plug AND coil end boots which fit so tightly onto their respective wires, that when you slide the wire/boot assembly onto the spark plug and/or coil, you actually pressurize the air trapped inside that boot. This pressurized air MUST be released. The simple way to do this is to CAREFULLY insert a small, thin screwdriver between the plug wire and the boot. You will hear a slight hiss, as the pressurized air is released. Failure to do this, will cause this trapped air and normal engine vibration to cause the wire to back off the spark plug or ignition coil. The devil is in the details.
Charlie Kuss
 
When you read about a pilot electing to continue a flight under these conditions it should be a warning to you all.

'she took off like a scalded cat and in a few seconds I was climbing at 1700 fpm. OK, so I'll climb up and see what I get.'

Don't try to diagnose from the cockpit in the air. I had two engine out landings on the same day for the same reason, my own foolishness. Unless you want your Obit to include 'test pilot or crash test dummy' get back on the ground as soon as possible.

Well Mr. Armchair Quarterback, as I stated I was setting up for a return to the field under sufficient power to get there. It did indeed climb impressively. I was able to cycle the EI off and on and EXACTLY duplicate the feeling of it kicking back on, thus verifying the problem. As I also said this was the third or fourth time it had occurred and I had reason to expect that once it came on it would stay on. The other contributor was I was very quickly at 5500 feet with a chain of major training fields EVERY ten miles to home with a functioning mag. There was never a point I could not have gotten down with room to spare. If my Barkalounger is every inop I'll have my people call you.
 
ElectoAir issues

Hopefully I am not changing the direction of this thread but I would like to add my experience with the ElectroAir system.
I purchased my RV8 flying, and equipped with a Slick left magneto, and an ElectroAir system on the right, along with a SkyTec Flyweight (149-12LS) permanent magnet starter. Apparently the Slick magneto failed during a flight, but went unnoticed as the ElectroAir carried on without a hitch. On the next attempt to start, the engine would not start at all! Troubleshooting identified the failed Slick magneto, but the ElectroAir seemed to be fine. A call to the folks at ElectroAir enlightened me: The permanent magnet starter draws a great deal of current, and can drop the battery voltage below the 8 volt threshold required by the ElectroAir system. This apparently is what happened . They advised that voltage drop can prevent the ignition starting retard to work, resulting in a severe kickback. ElectroAir also suggested that a separate electrical source be provided to prevent the voltage drop to the ElectroAir system. My solution was to:
1. Replace the SkyTec Flyweight starter with a SkyTec (149-NL) field-wound motor. The field-wound motor has a lower current draw than a permanent magnet motor, hence less voltage drop.
2. Add a 1.2 AH battery to supply the ElectroAir unit, with a charging circuit powered by the main bus to maintain the battery. ElectroAir indicated that the battery will supply power for about one hour in the event of a total electrical system failure.
Since these additions, there have been no problems with starting. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread; I have learned some useful tips from all of you.
Craig
 
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