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Chains or RV Rocket Steering Link?

DougCronkhite

Active Member
My 8 currently has chains on it.. but the previous owner purchased the RV Rocket steering link and tie-down control arm but never installed it? Any recommendation on either?
 
Depends on what you like. The link will be a bit more sensitive in general. Think of it like power steering vs a bit looser manual. It seems to be more personal preference than a case of one being better than the other. Some find the links twitchy, but I really like them. It feels like you have more direct control when you press it goes like right now!
 
I switched from chains to the "Silver Bullet", very similar to other steering links like the rocket, when it first became available about 10-11 years ago. I've never gone back to the chains.

There's nothing wrong with chains, but the more direct steering links give much more responsive and more precise steering control. I recommend switching. (Note: the silver bullet is no longer produced but other steering links available follow essentially the same design).

My original silver bullet finally broke about a year ago, but I keep a spare and it was replaced in about five minutes.

Chris
 
Flown both quite a bit. I strongly prefer the link. The dance you do with chains goes away. The tail is wherever your feet put it. No dancing on the chain slack. Does take some getting used to.
 
I am on the other side of this discussion and prefer the chains. Not only that, I like having my chains a bit loose. This allows the rudder to work before engaging the tailwheel.

Also, some time back there was a thread about a link that got crossed on landing and caused a ground loop. That can't happen with the chains.
 
I am on the other side of this discussion and prefer the chains. Not only that, I like having my chains a bit loose. This allows the rudder to work before engaging the tailwheel.

A loose chain, link, or cable generally allows the tailwheel to swivel past the release point before the rudder reaches its stop. Bad juju. It should need to stretch a spring to reach the release point, with the rudder on the stop. Easy to check. If necessary, move the forward attach points inboard on the rudder horn to change the ratio. Moving them inboard also makes the tailwheel steer a little less quickly, bringing aero and wheel steering into closer accord.

Chains are fragile. A S-curved link is weak. Cable is bulletproof.

Tailwheel%20Cable.jpg


All tailwheel mounting springs twist in torsion as well as bending under load. Steering feel is improved considerably by selecting a tailwheel fork and wheel with a smaller torsion arm.

Tailwheels%20with%20Torsion.jpg
 
Dan, the bending force on the rudder horn induced by the arm created with the eyebolt has always bugged me, albeit I?ve never heard of that part bending or cracking. What are your thoughts on this?
 
Dan, I respectfully disagree. I have had the locking pin jam in the retracted position due to a burr and didn't notice a difference. I noticed it during a preflight and flew it that way for a month. I didn't miss the steerable tailwheel at all.

As for the geometry of the springs, I put i-bolts sticking up on the wheel's steering arm and sticking down on the rudder horn. Thus improves the geometry and keeps the steel clips from enlarging the hole in the rudder horn.

I need to get a better picture but this might help:


(click to enlarge)
 
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A loose chain, link, or cable generally allows the tailwheel to swivel past the release point before the rudder reaches its stop. Bad juju. It should need to stretch a spring to reach the release point, with the rudder on the stop. Easy to check. If necessary, move the forward attach points inboard on the rudder horn to change the ratio. Moving them inboard also makes the tailwheel steer a little less quickly, bringing aero and wheel steering into closer accord.

Chains are fragile. A S-curved link is weak. Cable is bulletproof.

Tailwheel%20Cable.jpg


All tailwheel mounting springs twist in torsion as well as bending under load. Steering feel is improved considerably by selecting a tailwheel fork and wheel with a smaller torsion arm.

Tailwheels%20with%20Torsion.jpg

I switched to CABLE after stretching the the 2nd set of chains. Did not want to keep replacing stretched chains every 300-hours. The cables have been flawless for over 2,700-hours.

IF it were not for the heat sleeving and different tail wheel fork, that could be my airplane in the photo.
 
Dan, the bending force on the rudder horn induced by the arm created with the eyebolt has always bugged me, albeit I’ve never heard of that part bending or cracking. What are your thoughts on this?

I think it is always reasonable to note such loads.
I have not calculated anything, but the assembly is at 800 hours and counting.

Not much difference when compared to the s-link attachment.
 
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One caution about the steering link products for new tailwheel pilots. I know of three runway departures, all on RV8’s, due to pilot error overcontrolling. All where new to tailwheel.
They don’t seem to be an issue for tailwheel pilots after they have some time built.

My opinion is shared by a very well known transition trainer and a few other highly experienced RV guru’s.

It is possible the products where not set up properly, or regardless of the steering system, the outcome would have been the same, but I believe the more sensitive tailwheel contributed to the problem, as did one of the guys that wrecked his 8. It was repaired, standard springs put back on, and after some time building, the link went back on. So far, so good...
 
Switch from chains to rocket link on my -6. Would never go back.
Ditto, with one additional note... I love the link for steering on the ground, i'm sure it saves on brake pad wear. That said, I had the locking pin wear on me at one point and before I got to disassembling it and reshaping the tip so it worked again, I got quite used to the free-castering tailwheel. As an adequately competent tailwheel pilot, I considered removing the link entirely and just leaving it free-castering. I only kept it in consideration of reduced brake pad wear while manoeuvering on the ground.
 
Personally I like the link style becasue they are clean and easy to maintain, and I like tight-coupled steering. We have Silver Bullets on all our RV’s. However, our Tundra has chains, and it flies fine. I fly lots and lots of different taildraggers - links, tight chains, loose chains, cables, full swivel, tail skids....I just adapt to whatever I am flying. They all work if you have good fundamental technique.

Paul
 
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Terry Jantzi, RV6, was the original designer of the RV/Rocket steering link, around 20 years ago. I did the initial flights with the unit on my rocket and I think that is how it got the "Rocket Link" name. We tried a few different versions, some different spring tensions and ended up with the unit that is still pretty much the same. Since then I have used the link on all my airplanes, Rockets and RVs. I really do like the feel of the unit although, like Paul I am used to other methods of steering.
For a while the steering arm would wear, especially on the heavier rocket. Vince Fraizer who now markets the link has improved the hardness of the steering arm and my current one has lasted many hours. Also included in the new steering link is the tie rope attach hole on the steering arm. I am going to take credit for idea that lead to that useful addition. It makes it much easier to keep the tail tied down rope cleaner. I have also used that "hole" as a tow point to pull the airplane backwards out of the hangar.
 
Terry Jantzi, RV6, was the original designer of the RV/Rocket steering link, around 20 years ago. I did the initial flights with the unit on my rocket and I think that is how it got the "Rocket Link" name.

I received one of the early units from Terry for evaluation and it is still flying on my RV-6.

- links, tight chains, loose chains, cables, full swivel, tail skids..... They all work if you have good fundamental technique.

And that pretty much sums up this entire discussion. :)
 
Yes. Yes it does. If you know haw to make it go straight not hitting anything in the process. That's just experienced flying.

Jim
 
I have a Rocket Link on my RV-8. First taildragger I have flown without chains. I find it very nice on taxi. However, my tailwheel tends to kick into swivel easier to the right than the left. So on every takeoff and landing, especially with any left crosswind component, I have my right foot up where it can catch the right brake in case the tailwheel comes out of lock and darts left. The first time it happened I had my heels on the floor and a seasoned crop duster in the back seat landing on a dirt strip with a left crosswind. As soon as the tailwheel hit with the crosswind controls it went into full swivel and started heading to the left, faster as I slowed and lost aerodynamic rudder force. I had to wake up and get my right foot up on the brake. No groundloop but embarrassing, especially with a guy in the back seat who could feel it coming a mile away as a helpless passenger.

Understanding the tendancy I have learned to be ready for it, especially with a left crosswind on takeoff or landing. I have even gone so far as to warn my passenger as we line up for takeoff with a left crosswind that they will feel a bit of a dart to the left when the tailwheel kicks loose and I have to kick the brake. This really has nothing to do with the Rocket link but the tailwheel pawl adjustment.

I have also experienced the Rocket link overcenter to reverse steering when ground handling when the mains hit a hangar door rail and the airplane bounced backwards with tension on the link. It required lifting the tail onto a support and forcing the internal spring on the link back overcenter to the original configuration. A very unlikely loading scenario during normal operation but might do the same in a severe groundloop if the airplane starts sliding backwards with pilot frantically pressing the rudder pedal to the floor.

Those are some small nits and I like my link enough to keep it but might change the tailwheel out for a different type like the Screaming Eagle I have on the RV-3B. That shoukd help the swivel kick out tendancy in a left crosswind. A friend has this configuration on his 8 and never experiences the kick out.

Jim
 
I have a Rocket Link on my RV-8. First taildragger I have flown without chains. I find it very nice on taxi. However, my tailwheel tends to kick into swivel easier to the right than the left. So on every takeoff and landing, especially with any left crosswind component, I have my right foot up where it can catch the right brake in case the tailwheel comes out of lock and darts left. The first time it happened I had my heels on the floor and a seasoned crop duster in the back seat landing on a dirt strip with a left crosswind. As soon as the tailwheel hit with the crosswind controls it went into full swivel and started heading to the left, faster as I slowed and lost aerodynamic rudder force. I had to wake up and get my right foot up on the brake. No groundloop but embarrassing, especially with a guy in the back seat who could feel it coming a mile away as a helpless passenger.

Understanding the tendancy I have learned to be ready for it, especially with a left crosswind on takeoff or landing. I have even gone so far as to warn my passenger as we line up for takeoff with a left crosswind that they will feel a bit of a dart to the left when the tailwheel kicks loose and I have to kick the brake. This really has nothing to do with the Rocket link but the tailwheel pawl adjustment.

I have also experienced the Rocket link overcenter to reverse steering when ground handling when the mains hit a hangar door rail and the airplane bounced backwards with tension on the link. It required lifting the tail onto a support and forcing the internal spring on the link back overcenter to the original configuration. A very unlikely loading scenario during normal operation but might do the same in a severe groundloop if the airplane starts sliding backwards with pilot frantically pressing the rudder pedal to the floor.

Those are some small nits and I like my link enough to keep it but might change the tailwheel out for a different type like the Screaming Eagle I have on the RV-3B. That shoukd help the swivel kick out tendancy in a left crosswind. A friend has this configuration on his 8 and never experiences the kick out.

Jim

JIm - the asymmetry you describe sounds to me like you are getting uneven where in the notch in the steering arm. I?ve had this happen, and it develops slowly, so you don;t really register that it is happening - you just learn to compensate for it. Easy way to see if this is true is to take the arm off and look for wear. If you see wear indications, you can try flipping it (if it is a two-sided arm), or just buy a new one and give it a try.

Something to check.
 
You can also put a drop of weld on the worn spot and file it to the correct profile. A chain saw file works well for this.
 
The 9

I have the rod link to install......but as someone who is a newby tailwheel pilot, should I put the chains on and get experience before tackling the steering link?

Or is it better to start off right off the bat with the link. For those of you 9 drivers.....what do you have? Are the chains more forgiving?
 
I have the rod link to install......but as someone who is a newby tailwheel pilot, should I put the chains on and get experience before tackling the steering link?

Or is it better to start off right off the bat with the link. For those of you 9 drivers.....what do you have? Are the chains more forgiving?

I have always just had the chains on my -9 and happily don?t know what I?m missing.
 
Well Then!
Thank You, Terry, Vince and Tom.
I just upgraded to the steering link + Tie Down Ring, I think it's a big improvement in steering stability on my RV-8. Slowing down thru 50 MPH is more stable, and I just like it better.
I can't imagine the steering link making tail wheel transition harder?
I always kept slack in the chains w/ springs to prevent ground loops when one side breaks off. I like Dan's cable upgrade too.
The tie down ring has been worth the price of admission. :cool:
 
Broken tailwheel link

Hi,
At about 180 hours, my RV8 tailwheel link broke when landing. I ordered a new one from JD Airparts . I am wondering if I could fly safely without any link? Taxiing is not a major issue, but in flight I am not sure of the rudder stability...
Thanks for your opinions
 
Hi,
At about 180 hours, my RV8 tailwheel link broke when landing. I ordered a new one from JD Airparts . I am wondering if I could fly safely without any link? Taxiing is not a major issue, but in flight I am not sure of the rudder stability...
Thanks for your opinions

One of the rod end bearings on my Rocket link (RV-6) broke while taxiing out of a Saturday breakfast. The steering was a bit looser but landing back home was a non-event. There was no effect on in-flight stability.
 
Thank Sam for the info. Anyway I was able to repair the link . But regarding flight controls I am always very carefull. That?s A good info when you don?t want to be stuck far from your homebase.
 
My RV-8 had a rocket link already installed when I bought it. I prefer the positive steering control with the link over the tap-dance-inducing hysteresis of chains/springs. Steering with the link is like coasting on a bike....no wasted pedal/steering motion.

I found no problem whatsoever using the link...it was an unexpected and welcome improvement over other taildraggers I've flown. It made landings that much easier.

Chains/springs are like steering a bicycle with a loose handlebar. :)
 
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Chain Chain Chain...

My 8 currently has chains on it.. but the previous owner purchased the RV Rocket steering link and tie-down control arm but never installed it? Any recommendation on either?
Doug,
I suppose I am from the RV "Bush-plane Wannabe" side of total performance with 80+% of my landings are off pavement.
My RV4 (and RV6"X") had chains initially back in the 90's but now has "the fix". The fix came after the Rocket Steering link on my HR2 broke off on my first landing at my home turf strip in FL.
The fix?
These: https://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1540320357-16-744&browse=misc&product=tail-lynx

Not cheap, but they withstand off road abuse and work nicely with the API, FlyBoy or Bell Tailwheel.
V/R
Smokey
 
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Beware of asymmetry in castor release point

Bruce Eicher linked to the thread I posted where I found out the hard way (although not as hard as it could have been) that with the rocket link, there is an asymmetry in the geometry that causes the wheel to get to the castor release point with less than full rudder in one direction.

Jliltd -- what you describe is exactly the issue. Paul, it is not a wear issue, it is intrinsic to the asymmetrical geometry because the angle from the rudder hinge axis to the point on the rudder horn that drives the link is different than the angle from the attach point on the steering arm to the tailwheel pivot.

As some have noted, it is not too difficult to manage a taildragger with a full castering tail wheel, and I have done that a lot. But what is hard is to have the steering lock let go on you abruptly.

A change in the design of the steering arm so that the angle matches the angle on the rudder horn would prevent this. Would be easy to do if the supplier would step up and just do that.

Until then, I went back to the Tail Lynx, which is a very tidy spring system.
 
Bruce Eicher linked to the thread I posted where I found out the hard way (although not as hard as it could have been) that with the rocket link, there is an asymmetry in the geometry that causes the wheel to get to the castor release point with less than full rudder in one direction.

Jliltd -- what you describe is exactly the issue. Paul, it is not a wear issue, it is intrinsic to the asymmetrical geometry because the angle from the rudder hinge axis to the point on the rudder horn that drives the link is different than the angle from the attach point on the steering arm to the tailwheel pivot.

As some have noted, it is not too difficult to manage a taildragger with a full castering tail wheel, and I have done that a lot. But what is hard is to have the steering lock let go on you abruptly.

A change in the design of the steering arm so that the angle matches the angle on the rudder horn would prevent this. Would be easy to do if the supplier would step up and just do that.

Until then, I went back to the Tail Lynx, which is a very tidy spring system.

Steve,

I discussed the geometry issue at length with the rocket link manufacturer several months ago. He's aware of community concerns about the link-steering arm geometry issue but considers it a non-problem, based on his own experience and customer feedback. He was pretty adamant about not doing anything to address it. I pushed it as hard as I could, until it became clear that further discussion was pointless. His anecdotal argument did not allay my own concerns, but it seems the customers are on their own if they want to make the geometry mods proposed here by others.

In your opinion, does the Tail Lynx system provide a comparable level of positive steering control as the Rocket link?
 
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Experienced all three

I started with Van?s stock springs, in about 100 hours went to Rocket link, liked it but had one cross wind breakout, without any more than a scare, and then it broke at about 400 hours. Coincidently Steve Smith happen to be coming to the same flyout and brought me his old link to get me home. Now I have the Linx cable springs from Van?s with 100 hours. And is it like the others? It depends on how tight you set them up, I went a little tighter than the plans called. For me They fall between stock chains and the rocket link. Taxi is a little more wiggly. But bottom line, I trust the strength and the symmetrical break out of the Lynx.
 
Missing Link...

Steve,

In your opinion, does the Tail Lynx system provide a comparable level of positive steering control as the Rocket link?
Bruce/Steve,
My biggest issue with the RSL vs Lynx was my "Off Road sturdiness required" on my operational requirements list.
It wasn't the positive feedback of the Rocket Steering but the lack thereof.
In gravel, mud, loose sand or soft turf the Rocket Link would breakout continually during taxi and provide zero positive steering (especially with a hard rubber TW) where the Lynx Cables (or chains) would.

The Lynx system works, well, especially under duress.
V/R
Smokey

PS:Trust me, in 25 years I have provided plenty of duress...:)
 
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Steve,

I discussed the geometry issue at length with the rocket link manufacturer several months ago. He's aware of community concerns about the link-steering arm geometry issue but considers it a non-problem, based on his own experience and customer feedback. He was pretty adamant about not doing anything to address it. I pushed it as hard as I could, until it became clear that further discussion was pointless. His anecdotal argument did not allay my own concerns, but it seems the customers are on their own if they want to make the geometry mods proposed here by others.

In your opinion, does the Tail Lynx system provide a comparable level of positive steering control as the Rocket link?

I had exactly the same experience trying to discuss it with him.

I would say no, it does not feel as quick and positive as the Rocket Link, but that may be because I set mine with just a little slack. I found that if the Lynx doesn't have a bit of slack on the ground, it pulls tighter in the air, as the tail spring unloads and pulls the chains/Lynx tighter. I was worried about that pre-load force on the lower rudder hinge. Probably fine, well within the load capability of the rod-end bearing. But I set mine to have a bit of slack anyway.

So, as Bruce also said, they are somewhere in between the Rocket Link and the old-fashioned chains.
 
Bruce/Steve,
My biggest issue with the RSL vs Lynx was my "Off Road sturdiness required" on my operational requirements list.
It wasn't the positive feedback of the Rocket Steering but the lack thereof.
In gravel, mud, loose sand or soft turf the Rocket Link would breakout continually during taxi and provide zero positive steering (especially with a hard rubber TW) where the Lynx Cables (or chains) would.

The Lynx system works, well, especially under duress.
V/R
Smokey

PS:Trust me, in 25 years I have provided plenty of duress...:)

Smokey/Bruce/Steve,

As I want to be prepared for more off-pavement flying, you've sold me on converting to the Lynx Cables set-up. :)
 
I am curious. Is the Rocket or other type of asymmetric push/pull single rod system ever been used on any other tailwheel aircraft or is this just an RV developement?
I have never seen any other tailwheel aircraft with a single rod.
Personally, I just can't get over the look. I like a traditional look and the links always looked awkward to me. To each his own and I am sure others prefer the clean look, along with the positive feel. Most are probably neutral about its appearance.
But hey, I still think round gauges look best too and I like the smell of exhaust fumes! Perhaps my brain is damaged.
 
+1 for Lynx cables

Yep, I also have the Lynx cables on my -4 and I?m installing them on my new -7 build. They?re very robust and work great!!

Mark
 
Yep, I also have the Lynx cables on my -4 and I?m installing them on my new -7 build. They?re very robust and work great!!

Mark

Tail Lynx was developed two hangars down from me "back in the day" so, I have had them since day one. I keep them loose and they behave like chains.
 
A change in the design of the steering arm so that the angle matches the angle on the rudder horn would prevent this. Would be easy to do if the supplier would step up and just do that.
It seems it shouldn't be that hard for a competent builder to make a prototype and prove the change would be an improvement.

Personally I haven't had a problem with my Rocket Link...
 
Silver bullet link

If you guys are referring to the Silver Bullet Link, JD Air was born after getting taken for my money after ordering one. Found out later several others had problems too.

The JD Air link looks much like the Silver Bullet but thats it. It was a clean sheet design with much improved innards. We have sold hundreds of these with very few problems. Keep in mind tail wheel components take a beating back there. If you try to lift the tail with the steering link, it will break. :eek:

Many if not most of the failures (about 6 over 10 years) are caused by improper maintenance of the tailwheel assemblies. They need to be cleaned, the locking pin and arm checked and everything regreased on a regular basis. I used to do it every oil change while the oil was draining. About 20 minutes start to finish.

Definitely don't be afraid of a steering link type system. It is positive and will give you years of service with proper maintenance. We have them in stock and ready to ship.
 
It seems it shouldn't be that hard for a competent builder to make a prototype and prove the change would be an improvement.

Personally I haven't had a problem with my Rocket Link...

It would not be difficult to cut one out of normalized 4130 sheet. But it would require taking it somewhere for heat treat to make the latching notch durable.

I suppose I could cut one out of 17-4PH.

Also the link arms need to be longer. For a proof-of-concept, I could use a stacking nut as an extension, but I would not want to trust that very long.
 
If you guys are referring to the Silver Bullet Link, JD Air was born after getting taken for my money after ordering one. Found out later several others had problems too.

The JD Air link looks much like the Silver Bullet but thats it. It was a clean sheet design with much improved innards. We have sold hundreds of these with very few problems. Keep in mind tail wheel components take a beating back there. If you try to lift the tail with the steering link, it will break. :eek:

Many if not most of the failures (about 6 over 10 years) are caused by improper maintenance of the tailwheel assemblies. They need to be cleaned, the locking pin and arm checked and everything regreased on a regular basis. I used to do it every oil change while the oil was draining. About 20 minutes start to finish.

Definitely don't be afraid of a steering link type system. It is positive and will give you years of service with proper maintenance. We have them in stock and ready to ship.

Darwin, I would be delighted to work with you on a modified steering arm geometry, and an accompanying longer link.
 
If you guys are referring to the Silver Bullet Link, JD Air was born after getting taken for my money after ordering one. Found out later several others had problems too.

The JD Air link looks much like the Silver Bullet but thats it. It was a clean sheet design with much improved innards. We have sold hundreds of these with very few problems. Keep in mind tail wheel components take a beating back there. If you try to lift the tail with the steering link, it will break. :eek:

Many if not most of the failures (about 6 over 10 years) are caused by improper maintenance of the tailwheel assemblies. They need to be cleaned, the locking pin and arm checked and everything regreased on a regular basis. I used to do it every oil change while the oil was draining. About 20 minutes start to finish.

Definitely don't be afraid of a steering link type system. It is positive and will give you years of service with proper maintenance. We have them in stock and ready to ship.

I'll probably grab one of your links when I get home in March.
 
Darwin, I would be delighted to work with you on a modified steering arm geometry, and an accompanying longer link.

Steve,

Terry Jantzi was the original designer of the steering links, now made by Wayne Hadath, and sold by Blake through www.flyboyaccessories.

Blake would be happy to also work with you on any improvements to the geometry. That way we all win. We're all in this together, eh?
 
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I am curious. Is the Rocket or other type of asymmetric push/pull single rod system ever been used on any other tailwheel aircraft or is this just an RV developement?
I have never seen any other tailwheel aircraft with a single rod...

Steve Wittman used a single arm unit decades before there were any RV's. Many of the early Tailwinds and racers were so equipped.

These were solid rods and the tailwheels had no swivel function, but I think your point is the asymmetric actuation, which these share.
 
Steve Wittman used a single arm unit decades before there were any RV's. Many of the early Tailwinds and racers were so equipped.

These were solid rods and the tailwheels had no swivel function, but I think your point is the asymmetric actuation, which these share.

The Sonex series uses a solid, single rod. There are others too.
 
The solid rod versions with no swivel are not really comparable to this situation. I think the issue people see with the Rocket/Flyboy/Jantzi links is that the asymmetry affects how the "release" actuates depending on which way the wheel is turned. I know when my pin wears, one side wears faster than the other. If I let it go too far, i'll end up with positive steering turning one way, and full swivel turning the other way.

Regular maintenance (disassembly, regreasing, checking pin for roundness) of the assembly seems to prevent this.
 
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