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Landing an RV-8

The above was prefaced with lengthy solid discussion on why wheel landings were all around safer then full stall three pointers.

They are not generally all around safer in the least bit. I think you are the only one here who proposed that. :) But lots of pilots are biased one way or the other. Nothing wrong with having a preference as long as your preference doesn't hinder your skills and your ability to handle the full envelope in other aircraft with different characteristics.
 
They are not generally all around safer in the least bit. I think you are the only one here who proposed that. :) But lots of pilots are biased one way or the other. Nothing wrong with having a preference as long as your preference doesn't hinder your skills and your ability to handle the full envelope in other aircraft with different characteristics.

Rick,
The premise about safer wheel landings was not mine, it was right out of Stick and Rudder. I didn't word it properly, the discussion and why is in the book.
 
I am real novice at tailwheel flying, but in my tailwheel training in a Champ, we nearly always did 3-pointers. At the end of training we were coming down nicely and touched, mains down, pulled the stick back as the tail touched down, then a gust hit and up went the nose! The instructor assisted for a nice recovery. It was apparently right on that edge of flying and after planting the little wheel, the front end is at risk for a short period. That won't happen with a wheelie, but surely other things will. Transition training with M. Seager in the 7 was a lot more comfortable.

Bill, stick with your flight instructor. This discussion is about the RV-8, not a Champ.
For a broader perspective on aviation, read Stick and Rudder. It's about flying, really flying, like in the days when people loved this business and were trying to do better every day. The accident rate during training in WWII was awful. This book was written in that context and time frame. That awful accident rate was pivotal in getting rid of tail draggers for training.
 
I am in the 3-point camp.

However, there is no doubt that each pilot should do what works best for him/her. A technique that is safe, repeatable, and winds up with the aircraft back in the hangar for another day.

However, I offer the following:

Can you land the aircraft with the tail wheel two feet in the air?
Can you land the aircraft with the tail wheel one foot in the air?
Can you land the aircraft with the tail wheel six inches in the air?
Can you land the aircraft with the tail wheel one inch in the air?

If you can do those, you can handle the final stage... a perfect 3-point.

Well... Maybe a little skip, but that's OK. (;>0)


Again, each to his own; however, I won't denigrate the chap that prefers not to 3-point nor should he feel it necessary to castigate those who do...
 
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Rick,
The premise about safer wheel landings was not mine, it was right out of Stick and Rudder. I didn't word it properly, the discussion and why is in the book.

I gotcha. That may be one author's opinion, but in general the idea that one method of landing is safer than the other is really not up for debate among experienced tailwheel pilots. It's purely aircraft characteristics + pilot preference.
 
I gotcha. That may be one author's opinion, but in general the idea that one method of landing is safer than the other is really not up for debate among experienced tailwheel pilots. It's purely aircraft characteristics + pilot preference.

Believe it is aircraft characteristics and pilot preference also, except with some airplanes it is cut and dried. The DC-3 is wheel landed. So are some WWII fighters.

Was watching movie "Patton" the other night, interesting the German airplane in movie that came to pick up Rommel tried for 3 pointer but ended up raising tail and making it a wheel landing. :)

I remain total neophyte with tail wheel ops but am inclined to believe the 8 has characteristics making wheel landing more consistently satisfactory. If I knew how to set up a poll on subject, I would do it just to see how many guys prefer one method over other with this airplane (RV-8).

There is a lot of experience here and it is well we share it.

My intent is not to rewrite the book but to fly safe.
 
...it looks a little like a P-51, fly it like a P-51!

And finally from Stick and Rudder (1944)....The three-point landing is not the only way to get an airplane down. It is not even the best way.....the tail up "wheel" landing, made at high speed, is getting more attention from many pilots. It is the way airliners and "hot" Army ships are landed, but it is just as easy and just as suitable for the smaller lighter airplane.

After about >1000 hours in the RV-8 I don't have a strong opinion in the "which way of landing is better" debate (I routinely do both depending on conditions and the whim of the moment), but its interesting to see that many of the "hot army ships" actually seem to do fine with three-pointing. Also interesting to note that like the RV-8, not all of the warbird 3-pointers are perfectly smooth (which I don't equate to being less safe):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehLPAdniWSo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhAgU-GUc1Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1S-C1r_mA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y3v1-WMJS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJI3l4_ug0g

The last video is particularly interesting because it shows a P-51 landing 3-point (sort of), and a P40 landing both ways!
 
As I read and think about my experiance, I feel landing is a lot about energy management. I learned and earned my TW endorsement in a Citabria. I was taught to slow it down until the airframe no longer possessed the energy to do anymore then plop on the runway, a little foot work was only sometimes needed. My instructor did admit he pulled on the rudder cables now and then to see if my feet were awake. 😉
Then as I finished my -8 I took four, not two or three, but four days with Mike Seager. He had to retrain me away from the Citabria habits some. The factory trainer is a -7 with a CS prop. Energy fell quickly in pattern and holding a slow and steep approach seemed easy. We three pointed all landings, some were bouncers, but all were manageable. My foot work needed refinement, and I suffered many times from pilot induced oscillations.
So then I finished my -8, had 12 hours of TW training, about 20 hours TW total, 150 PP Logged time total! And yes I took my 5 year build project up for the first time about 4 years ago. I now have 365 hours on my -8.
My -8 has a fixed prop. So I feel energy management takes a little more planning. I enter the 45 to downwind slower, about 135mph, I like the smaller pattern and steeper approach that both past mentioned instructors taught me. But if I am carrying energy on the short final I am going to either eat up runway to three point further down the runway, or wheel land near the numbers. Total runway used ends up about the same.
I fly into an 1800' strip several times a year, my personal limit. It would be no big deal, but some tall trees then a fence right before the numbers makes it my challenge. So with this runway I slow further and put myself behind the power curve, adding power over the trees just a little, not ideal for safety sakes I know. Then a touch of power again just to arrest the sink before touch down in a three point. I have never had to go around at this strip, some good bounces have taken place because of poor timing, but I have never had to brake to slow the plane down and always make an easy turn off the runway. Most of the time I have used half the runway.
Many other runways, either longer or with much less obstructions, I use the wheel landing, and when little extra power is used, I make the first turn off.
So either way, wheelie or 3 point, wind and other conditions aside, it is only a matter of timing. When do you wish to expell the last bit of flight energy? Touch down on two wheels and then expell, or drain the last drop just as you drop on all three.
IMHO....YMMV....😁
 
Interesting videos Alan, but none of those guys were hot WWII pilots. They were civilians flying restored WWII airplanes many years later, certainly not spun up like guys flying combat missions every day in time of war.

Have your read "Stick and Rudder"?

Just a little information on Wolfgang Lengewiesche the author.

"Wolfgang Langewiesche (1907?2002) aviator, author and journalist, is one of the most quoted authors in aviation writing. His book, Stick and Rudder (1944), is still in print, and is considered a primary reference on the art of flying fixed-wing aircraft.

Born in D?sseldorf, Germany, in 1907, he migrated to America in 1929. He was a graduate of the London School of Economics and earned his master's degree from Columbia University. He was in a doctoral program in the University of Chicago when he decided to learn to fly and pursue a career in aviation.

Mr. Langewiesche wrote for Air Facts magazine, an aviation safety-related publication edited by Leighton Collins, and his articles were the basis for most of Stick and Rudder. The basic facts about flying that he emphasized in 1944 have withstood much criticism since then. Over 200,000 copies of the book had been printed by 1990.

He taught "Theory of Flight" to US Army aviation cadets in the ground school at The Hawthorne School of Aeronautics in Orangeburg SC during World War II, and test flew F4U Corsairs for the Vought Corporation. He later worked for Cessna as a test pilot. In the 1950s he became Reader's Digest's roving editor, retiring in 1986."


I'm not interested in selling the book, only what the guy wrote when the war was going on and how to get a handle on training pilots during that effort. Langewiesche was very influential at the time.

The stuff he wrote then makes sense to me today. Thats all I am saying.

Yes, I know it was some 73 years ago, but no one has invented aviation since then, just made up their own interpretation of it. There never has been a more intense time for aviators than WWII.

I knew (he passed away recently) one guy who flew P-51's in Italy in 1944, he was 21 years old when he got to the unit, had about 200 hours and never sat in a 51 until then, had flown P-40's in training. There was a guy in the unit who wrecked 2 51's because he could not land the airplane. There simply was not time to adequately train pilots. A problem Langewiesche was trying to fix back in the states. He was 37 years old at the time.

There are lots of misconceptions about aviation. One is this eternal fixation that "my way is best". I flew with a senior captain at TWA before crew resource management was implemented, back when airline captains walked on water. This guy had learned to fly in a Champ sometime during the war but never served in the military and somehow got a job with the predecessor of TWA. It was my leg and at about 100 feet said, I've got it let me show you how to land an airplane like the Champ. (he had talked about his glorious days flying a Champ) This was in a 707. He flared and hauled back on the stick trying to stall the Boeing in like a Champ, finally touched nearly dragging the tail on concrete, all this with a load of passengers.

I thought, well isn't this interesting. I was just hired and knew this guy was nuts (I had about 2000 hour of KC135 time from the military) but did not have the balls to turn him in. I wanted the job, not confront a senior captain in the front office, I would have lost that one.

Some time later a more senior first officer did turn him in and the captain had to go to "attitude adjustment" training in Kansas City. Airlines did bend over backward in those days to not fire a captain they had blessed for the job but did insist company airplanes be flown in accordance with Boeing and company policy.

My point being, none of us have invented this stuff. That was done a long time ago by guys like Langewiesche who contributed to it. What we can do is try to figure a way to apply it today to make aviation safer than it is. Things have changed so much, even the FAA does not believe stick and rudder skills are important anymore, based on some mysterious over educated premise invented by government psychologists who may not even be pilots.

So how does all this apply to flying the RV-8 (a passion of mine since building the darn thing).

There is a marked difference from landing a Champ and B-707. The RV-8 lies somewhere in between, where it is exactly I am attempting to discover for myself and sharing that experience here. Some days I wish I had not done that because it confuses the issue. We have a lot of guys here who are good pilots, don't crash and burn, but are rather closed minded about what they know.

What really scares me as a pilot is how a guy like Charlie Hilliard died. He was the best of the best in his day and kills himself flipping a Sea Fury after landing. How does stuff like that happen? I just don't know.

What I do know, getting back to the discussion, is I have to fly the 8 in a manner that leaves feeling like I have a chance to survive the next flight. I have never gotten a 3 point landing in an RV that leaves me with a feeling I was in control. And I've had quite a bit of instruction in the 6. In fact the guy i flew with most always wheel lands it and he is an outstanding pilot. The first guy I flew with always 3 pointed it and said I did just fine but on the inside i was a wreck, I had no control over the event except haul back on the stick and hope for the best.

So there you have it one more time, do it in a manner that suits you. There really is no "best way" for all, only a "best way" for you.

Unless of course you work for a living in military or airline and then you do it their way. :)
 
Interesting videos Alan, but none of those guys were hot WWII pilots. They were civilians flying restored WWII airplanes many years later, certainly not spun up like guys flying combat missions every day in time of war.

True, except for the P47 which was a War Dept. training film. Not so much Youtube in 1944 :)

Have your read "Stick and Rudder"?

Yes, in fact I own two copies and consider it an aviation classic. I also got my instrument rating instruction from Langewiesche's son, who is an accomplished pilot and author in his own right. He wrote a book about the U.S. Air ditching on the Hudson that was a bit controversial because it opined that the Airbus itself was partly responsible for the outcome. I think it would not be an exaggeration to say that father and son both tend toward confidently expressed opinions. Not necessarily wrong though.

I don't have anything like your amount of aviation experience but it strikes me that a variety of operational considerations might also influence the preferred landing mode. For example prop clearance might have been a factor with the P47, and passenger comfort or loading considerations with the DC-3? For quickly training thousands of WWII pilots standardization was no doubt important, which might lead to there being only one "right" way?

What I do know, getting back to the discussion, is I have to fly the 8 in a manner that leaves feeling like I have a chance to survive the next flight.

I'm all for that! I've enjoyed reading your posts and particularly appreciate your openness on the subject.
 
Interesting read. I've been fortunate over the years to fly many different aircraft and to me they all land like, well, airplanes. Be on speed, arrest the sink and flare. I've witnessed so much stick pumping I thought there must be snakes in the cockpit. I've heard about how you had to push the 727 on. You don't have to carry power to touchdown, bump the power to arrest the sink, push to keep from spiking it, pump the stick or fight it down. All I've ever had to do is fly it like a plane. They ALL land very well if flown correctly and smoothly. Be it airline equipment, military, corporate ot our beloved GA, just fly it like an airplane. Smoothly.
It has been my experience over the years when I seen somene pumping the stick, they don't really know where the ground is.
 
Interesting read. I've been fortunate over the years to fly many different aircraft and to me they all land like, well, airplanes. Be on speed, arrest the sink and flare. I've witnessed so much stick pumping I thought there must be snakes in the cockpit. I've heard about how you had to push the 727 on. You don't have to carry power to touchdown, bump the power to arrest the sink, push to keep from spiking it, pump the stick or fight it down. All I've ever had to do is fly it like a plane. They ALL land very well if flown correctly and smoothly. Be it airline equipment, military, corporate ot our beloved GA, just fly it like an airplane. Smoothly.
It has been my experience over the years when I seen somene pumping the stick, they don't really know where the ground is.

Jerry,

I never flew the 727 but have close to 2000 hours at the panel watching guys fly it. The stretch was always flared with power on, if not it would not flare but hit the runway and drop all the masks in the back.

The "push on" was a technique in stretched airplanes to get the mains rising as they settled on the concrete, if done just right, passengers did not know they were on the ground. It worked well with the MD80, I did it if not fighting a gusty wind. The 80 was like the 727 also in that power was necessary going into flare, or it would not flare, a characteristic of airplanes that were stretched from original designs. The early DC9's flew like real airplanes and guys loved it.

Getting back to the 8, there is a point in landing where the drag curve really goes up quickly if the the machine is close to stall speed. No amount of back pressure will arrest the sink, but just a bit of power will. When flying into the Troy airpark from the west, I learned the hard landing way to add just a little power going into flare after a 60-65 knot power off glide when clear of trees.

Technique that works.

Your comment about pumping stick is interesting. There are serious articles written about doing it. I've flown with a guy who as CFI taught it to students who were having trouble getting their act together. It is a substitute for not really knowing what's going on.

I don't know if he still uses that as a teaching/learning method.
 
Jerry,

I never flew the 727 but have close to 2000 hours at the panel watching guys fly it. The stretch was always flared with power on, if not it would not flare but hit the runway and drop all the masks in the back.

The "push on" was a technique in stretched airplanes to get the mains rising as they settled on the concrete, if done just right, passengers did not know they were on the ground. It worked well with the MD80, I did it if not fighting a gusty wind. The 80 was like the 727 also in that power was necessary going into flare, or it would not flare, a characteristic of airplanes that were stretched from original designs. The early DC9's flew like real airplanes and guys loved it.

Getting back to the 8, there is a point in landing where the drag curve really goes up quickly if the the machine is close to stall speed. No amount of back pressure will arrest the sink, but just a bit of power will. When flying into the Troy airpark from the west, I learned the hard landing way to add just a little power going into flare after a 60-65 knot power off glide when clear of trees.

Technique that works.

Your comment about pumping stick is interesting. There are serious articles written about doing it. I've flown with a guy who as CFI taught it to students who were having trouble getting their act together. It is a substitute for not really knowing what's going on.

I don't know if he still uses that as a teaching/learning method.

Different techniques. I was on both 72 and 88, and all the others. In calm conditions never had to keep power on in flare. 1011 was a big cub. 75, 76 same. Pull the power and flare.
They're all fun honest birds kust like out current rides.
 
Interesting videos Alan, but none of those guys were hot WWII pilots. They were civilians flying restored WWII airplanes many years later, certainly not spun up like guys flying combat missions every day in time of war.

David,

Just for fun here's a couple more vintage videos from WWII:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duyMuyA69yg Very nice 3-point landing by a P-51

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi9i6k5NBTY Skip ahead to about 10:50. The first P-51 does a wheel landing and the next 4 or so land 3-point.
 
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O-360 w/ fp. I always land full flaps and wheels. As near to level as possible and keep the tail up with the stick until it won't stay up. 80 mph on final and pull power over the threshold. If the cross wind is significant, I put the tail down quicker. Either way, when the tail goes down I pin it there with the stick.
 
Keep pushing stick forward..??

so once the mains touch...and you put forward pressure on stick ..do you continue to push it forward until the tail drops, and let tail drop when it wants to?
 
so once the mains touch...and you put forward pressure on stick ..do you continue to push it forward until the tail drops, and let tail drop when it wants to?

You could hold the tail up as you describe if you have no winds (or maybe steady down the runway). But I have found it to be safer to let the tail down as soon as you slow past full stall speed. Then the plane won't relaunch and you can apply smooth up elevator to pin yourself to the runway. Holding the tail up too long could leave you at risk of a sideways gust sending you towards the ditch or into a ground loop.
 
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Gear cuffs

Something that hasn't been addressed in this thread. Several references have been made to the only difference between the -8 and other RV tailwheel models is the flat steel gear. However, the placement of the gear is different too.

The Vans bible, 27 years of RVator, has several pages dedicated to the disturbance of flow at the wing root caused by the gear cuff.

That flow disturbance can change stall speed by 5 or more mph.

I guess my point is that the -8 has more differences contributing to landing techniques then discussed.

BTW, I'm at about 50 landings now. Control speed, carry a pinch of power, wheel it on tail low, pin the mains then follow the tail down with elevator.

Seems to be working for me.
 
Hurry up 100 hours

I'm still at the infant stage with crosswind landings, however yesterday with as little as 8 kt direct Xwind I found that tail low I was almost out of rudder, or should I say I was pushing almost to the firewall during the dance. The second landing I kept the tail a smidgen higher seemed to help.
I understand what was said...that if the tail is high that a gust could send you ditch bound.....still learning.

P.S. I have found the ditch once, scared the bejesus out of me.

When you xperts post landing techniques, I'm all ears then I apply what I read......seems to be many different opinions that all work or that you can walk away from.
Master Lander seems way off in the distance somewhere, but I can't wait until I can relax a bit and quit chocking the life out of the infinity grip on xwind's.
 
I'm still at the infant stage with crosswind landings, however yesterday with as little as 8 kt direct Xwind I found that tail low I was almost out of rudder, or should I say I was pushing almost to the firewall during the dance. The second landing I kept the tail a smidgen higher seemed to help.
I understand what was said...that if the tail is high that a gust could send you ditch bound.....still learning.

P.S. I have found the ditch once, scared the bejesus out of me.

When you xperts post landing techniques, I'm all ears then I apply what I read......seems to be many different opinions that all work or that you can walk away from.
Master Lander seems way off in the distance somewhere, but I can't wait until I can relax a bit and quit chocking the life out of the infinity grip on xwind's.

I found out today how easy it is to be diverted toward a ditch.

Wind was no more than 10 kits but it was not steady, varying in direction. Just as tail was coming down after wheel landing, a gust hit and nose went right sharply, rudder was not much good. When tail wheel got down, did get it locked and was able to steer nose back left and align with runway.

That was first time getting hit by cross wind at that point of landing, was very aggressive with rudder and luckily got it straight.
 
Not the steering link

Guys...... It's not the steering link. Randy was landing on a wet runway in a crosswind. The authority of the tailwheel to steer him out of the situation was minimal at best. Randy had installed rudder pedal extensions. In a post accident discussion with him, he said that the interference the extensions cause to application of brakes may have been a factor.

I have flown three different RV-8s with extensions installed, and found the extensions interfere with normal brake application. The first 8 I flew with them had run off the runway in AZ and damaged the fuselage similar to Randy's 8. I was ask to fly the aircraft to the paint shop after the repair. Compared to the Doll, I found this RV-8 difficult to simply taxi. I felt like I was wearing combat boots in this aircraft. The extensions interfered with the required application of brakes while taxiing in the grass. I was concerned with how they would affect landing situations. I was extra alert after touchdown. I called the owner. I didn't question his story of a dust devil causing his runway departure, but I did recommend he remove the extensions prior to further flight.

When the day comes that a strong gust hits your 8, just after touchdown, and you push the rudder pedal to the firewall to correct, you better have the brake RIGHT THERE to save the day to remain on the runway.

The brakes on the RV-8 are up to the task. Returning from Sun-N-Fun several years ago, I landed at 52F with a gusting direct crosswind of 30K.
After touchdown, the tires sounded like this: Chirp.....Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp ...Chirp, but the Doll remained on the centerline of a narrow runway.

The brakes are your savior in these situations! When the rudder is not enough, and the pedal hits the firewall, PUNCH the brake! If you have modified your brakes in any way......return them to design.
 
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With 350 hours on my 8, I really have no idea why anyone came up with those rudder pedal extensions in the first place. Maybe really small feet?
 
With 350 hours on my 8, I really have no idea why anyone came up with those rudder pedal extensions in the first place. Maybe really small feet?

Big feet, size 14 in my case. And it's not just shoe size; it has a lot to do with leg length, thus knee height, thus the angle at the ankle, plus seat cushion height, and seatback thickness. This may be one of those things where "Do what works" is the best advice.

What works? Like Danny said, the brakes need to be right there, just a poke with the toes, without shifting of leg or foot position. At the same time, getting brake when you didn't want it also bends airplanes. That's the problem for the long-legged. As the legs get longer, the toes go more and more forward given the same angle at the ankle:



BTW, I don't have extensions below the brake pivot. I use a short length of flattened aluminum tube pop-riveted to the pedal forward of the pivot to correct the foot angle. The "A" and "B" notes point to where the cylinder's fork may bind on the weldment.

 
FWIW I have rocket steering device and like it. The airplane is easy to taxi and getting tail wheel locked is readily felt.

I subconsciously am on brakes, I hear that chirp, chirp, often. It may have been factor in keeping the thing on runway yesterday.

And, Stan, ex Subby guy, I did not feel all that comfortable at 100 hours either. But it is coming together as I close in on 200, went over 190 yesterday.

The deal with getting hit by cross wind just as airplane is transitioning from tail up, declining rudder authority and no TW steering, to tail down is an envelope we have to watch for. A steady or nearly steady state wind is not too difficult to manage but yesterday the wind sock just off of end of 8L at Spirit showed wind straight down runway. It was not so a 1000' down the runway. Its that unexpected gust that really gets your attention.

Some here may be familiar with the RV-8 that went off into ditch at Spruce Creek 5 or 6 years ago. The guy flying it was friend Jim Corley from TWA and thats what happened to him, just as he was crossing an open taxi area and as tail was coming down, was hit by gust and off the airplane went into a drainage ditch. It was a serious wreck with fuel leak, he said sure glad there was no fire, had trouble getting canopy open. (Jim passed away not long ago, he was careful about health but something got to him anyhow, at least was not an airplane)

All just part of the learning curve mastering the beast. :)
 
With 350 hours on my 8, I really have no idea why anyone came up with those rudder pedal extensions in the first place. Maybe really small feet?

You have to go way back into history - people were concerned about accidentally being on the brakes when they didn't want to be. The way the original pedals were designed, it was really easy for some people to apply brake when they intended only to apply rudder.

I had the extensions on mine from the start, and never had a problem. In any airplane, I slide my feet up and down as required to get the control I want. I removed the extensions when Louise started flying the Valkyrie because she didn't like them. I find the airplane just as easy to fly and land without them.

The truth of the matter is that I have flown with toe brakes and heel brakes, rudder pedals and rudder bars, all different shapes and sizes. I adapt to whatever I am flying because I was taught that way - flew lots of different airplanes before I got my Private ticket. I don't do anything by rote in an airplane, and I think about where I am putting pressure, and what it will do.

It pays to sit in the airplane on the ground and try different things with your feet - you'll be surprised how much your muscles will learn and retain. Actually LOOK at what your feet are doing (when you are sitting motionless), and then remember how it feels. We had a fun time re-adapting the RV-1 to Van's more "seasoned" personal geometry back in 2012, many decades after he had flown it. It was just a geometry and ankle flexibility thing. The left pedal on our RV-6 (kit #4, old style pedals) is a good example of something that feels really odd under foot - but once I looked at it, I understood why it felt that way, and adapt to it.

Try, learn, adapt....

Then go fly something with heel brakes, just to really fry your noodle.... :rolleyes:
 
C of G?

Is there a C of G sweet spot for three point landings? What about tail low wheel landings?
 
FWIW I have rocket steering device and like it. The airplane is easy to taxi and getting tail wheel locked is readily felt.

I subconsciously am on brakes, I hear that chirp, chirp, often. It may have been factor in keeping the thing on runway yesterday.

And, Stan, ex Subby guy, I did not feel all that comfortable at 100 hours either. But it is coming together as I close in on 200, went over 190 yesterday.

The deal with getting hit by cross wind just as airplane is transitioning from tail up, declining rudder authority and no TW steering, to tail down is an envelope we have to watch for. A steady or nearly steady state wind is not too difficult to manage but yesterday the wind sock just off of end of 8L at Spirit showed wind straight down runway. It was not so a 1000' down the runway. Its that unexpected gust that really gets your attention.

Some here may be familiar with the RV-8 that went off into ditch at Spruce Creek 5 or 6 years ago. The guy flying it was friend Jim Corley from TWA and thats what happened to him, just as he was crossing an open taxi area and as tail was coming down, was hit by gust and off the airplane went into a drainage ditch. It was a serious wreck with fuel leak, he said sure glad there was no fire, had trouble getting canopy open. (Jim passed away not long ago, he was careful about health but something got to him anyhow, at least was not an airplane)

All just part of the learning curve mastering the beast. :)

I went off in our drainage ditch in October, my heal caught on extensions as mentioned. My heal had not caught in 25 hours previously....but that one time was all it took to spend another $30K

The time it takes for the brain to process your toes can't reach the brakes due to heel being stuck under extensions, and then the necessary motor functions needed to reposition in my case exceeded the my processors limitation and short circuited leaving my life in the hands to tightly secured Hookers.

For that much money its hard to believe the short ride I got to the ditch, and it only took about 3 seconds without brakes and it was over.

I'm sure this landing comfortability dilemma I am experiencing is proportional to my experience that is burned into my memory chip each and every time I turn final.:eek:
 
The brakes on the RV-8 are up to the task. Returning from Sun-N-Fun several years ago, I landed at 52F with a gusting direct crosswind of 30K.
After touchdown, the tires sounded like this: Chirp.....Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp ...Chirp, but the Doll remained on the centerline of a narrow runway.

I'll concur with Danny's x-wind experience...coming into North Las Vegas one afternoon I was confronted with a 30 knot cross. I won't claim to have kept it right on centerline, but I did keep it on the runway! Full rudder and differential braking was the trick.

Mark
 
Starting to click

Flew most all day Sunday, landing...landing...landing until the wind fear subsided. I ended the long day with the RV grin, next hurdle is to get the courage to go out and do a loop :eek:
 
Flew most all day Sunday, landing...landing...landing until the wind fear subsided. I ended the long day with the RV grin, next hurdle is to get the courage to go out and do a loop :eek:

Good show Stan.

Logged 200.1 total in the 8 as of yesterday and am still learning to land the beast but not all tensed up.

The wind has been very squirrelly lately so wheel landings have been necessary. But I do get a very tail low landing now and then and it is better for sure if wind permits it.

A high wing experimental tail dragger got wrecked landing here yesterday due to wind about an hour after I quit. He was on news at 5 pm sitting sideways on runway with one main gear collapsed.
 
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Good show Stan.

Logged 200.1 total in the 8 as of yesterday and am still learning to land the beast but not all tensed up.

The wind has been very squirrelly lately so wheel landings have been necessary. But I do get a very tail low landing now and then and it is better for sure if wind permits it.

A high wing experimental tail dragger got wrecked landing here yesterday due to wind about an hour after I quit. He was on news at 5 pm sitting sideways on runway with one main gear collapsed.

Where I tense up is those big gust, example yesterday was 150@14G22
The first landing attempt was scrubbed due to a big gust, on the next attempt, instead of pulling power off and letting it blow my skirt up...I left power in and drove it to the runway on the left wheel.
Wasn't a thing of beauty, but I stuck it on the left wheel and did the dance without bending anything....WAHOOO.:D
It's ironic that Danny King told me when I have 100 hrs under my belt that I would look back and ask what the fuss was about.....I'm starting to believe.
3 weeks ago I would not have attempted yesterdays adventure.
 
Rather bad judgement going flying yesterday, but after 10 days of stormy weather couldn't resist the sunshine dispite the wind.

By the time of return it was 70 degrees 15G25, what a rock and roll on final!!

Was in flare right wing down searching for wheel touch when gust slammed airplane on to runway with significant bounce, added a little power and started over had plenty of runway, this time got it on right wheel stayed on runway finally tail down and steering back there.

Wow!! Now that was fun!!

No. Really dumb going out just for local patrol, turbulence was awful up to 4500'. But did see a lot of water along Missouri River, river is flooded.
 
Gusty conditions= small rudder inputs (happy feet) with differential braking. Never let pedals get to full deflection. Come to think of it.....same in calm conditions.
 
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Truth!

It is more "process than art" :)
I'm following thie thread with interest because "process" has been the way it's been for me for the last 2.5 years with my Lancair. I started landing very conservatively at 85 Kts...then 8O Kts...then 78 Kts. I would always "fly it down to the ground" with a little power rather than landing on the mains first with the nose up. My goal has been NOT to break the airplane that I worked so long on. The last thing I want to do is drop it in from 24" and see the gear come up through the top of the wing.

I don't know what I did differently the other day, but somehow I made a Cessna-style landing where I kept pulling the nose up until she finally set down gently on the mains. The wheels didn't kiss the asphalt until 60 KIAS - well below my normal 70 KIAS touchdown speed and also the dirty stall speed in my airplane. My AoA was going off in my headset. I need to see if I can pull that off again reliably because I sure don't have the short field capability that you RV guys have. My shortest landing so far has been 2,500'.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rpsqbo77bqk9nru/Wheel Landing 60 Kts.mp4?dl=0
 
I'm following thie thread with interest because "process" has been the way it's been for me for the last 2.5 years with my Lancair. I started landing very conservatively at 85 Kts...then 8O Kts...then 78 Kts. I would always "fly it down to the ground" with a little power rather than landing on the mains first with the nose up. My goal has been NOT to break the airplane that I worked so long on. The last thing I want to do is drop it in from 24" and see the gear come up through the top of the wing.

I don't know what I did differently the other day, but somehow I made a Cessna-style landing where I kept pulling the nose up until she finally set down gently on the mains. The wheels didn't kiss the asphalt until 60 KIAS - well below my normal 70 KIAS touchdown speed and also the dirty stall speed in my airplane. My AoA was going off in my headset. I need to see if I can pull that off again reliably because I sure don't have the short field capability that you RV guys have. My shortest landing so far has been 2,500'.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rpsqbo77bqk9nru/Wheel Landing 60 Kts.mp4?dl=0

Have a good friend flying Lancair 360, he needs more runway all the time due to nature of the airplane. It will never be an RV and RV will never be Lancair, he cruises on less fuel, has been on my wing to prove it.

His CS prop helps a lot in this case.
 
Went flying yesterday with wind less than 15 gusting to 25 at 70 degrees.

Made 5 good landings including an easy one on grass, grass makes a big difference. Every airport should have a grass runway. :)
 
Every airport should have a grass runway.
I tried to get our airport manager to give us a grass strip. They tore up one of our old runways and turned it back into open grass land. All thats needed is to smooth it out and keep it mowed. The airport manager said she wouldn't do it because it had to get FAA approval and it was too much red tape.
 
I've enjoyed reading this thread and watching the videos.

I now know I am not alone in the initial ability to land my RV-6 without bouncing.

It took 5 hours of transition before I was comfortable to go alone.

I'm now up to 15 hours and comfortably (sort a) doing wheelies on command.

Previously I've been doing wheelies with airspeed at 80 mph over the threshold and just a touch of power. The success rate (no bounce) was about 70-80 %.

After reading this thread, I went out to practice wheelies with airspeed at 90 mph over the threshold and wheelies with airspeed at 70 mph over the threshold. BTW, my Vso is 56 mph.

I had to be much more precise on the touch with the 90 mph approaches, which makes sense because of the excess flying speed on the plane. But it was good practice on learning how to get it on and stick. The attitude was very level on the touch.

The 70 mph approaches were the easiest. It was tail low, and just a small release of back pressure kept it on the wheels with no bounce.

Also of note, I tried to use the "look at the end of the runway" technique, but alas, that will only work with a "level" runway. If the runway slopes up or down or has a crown or a dip -- not so much.

Had the RV grin all day.
 
Read this whole thread. Glad I'm going to fly with Mike Seager a bunch before I try and fly my 8. I've only got about 20 hours recent tailwheel time in a Citabria.. but I couldn't resist the RV8 when I had the chance.. Hoping all goes well in about a month.. :D
 
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I've enjoyed reading this thread and watching the videos.

I now know I am not alone in the initial ability to land my RV-6 without bouncing.

I've been struggling with landing 2' in the air during my transition training. It's frustrating because I feel like I'm just repeating my mistakes. I can't seem to find a good reference to my altitude once I start the round-out, and I'm consistently over-controlling and hunting for the ground on final (this is in Mike Seager's RV7). I'm confident I'll get it figured out, but man it's frustrating right now.
 
I've been struggling with landing 2' in the air during my transition training. It's frustrating because I feel like I'm just repeating my mistakes. I can't seem to find a good reference to my altitude once I start the round-out, and I'm consistently over-controlling and hunting for the ground on final (this is in Mike Seager's RV7). I'm confident I'll get it figured out, but man it's frustrating right now.

I am by no means any kind of an authority, but it helps to focus on the other end of the runway on short final. If you're used to larger planes that don't react to every little gust of wind like these do, it's easy to get into over controlling, especially when you're looking at the runway just in front of the plane.

One other little trick that my hangar mate (retired carrier pilot) told me was to take the plane out on the runway and try to burn the sight picture into your mind as to what it looks like as you sit there in a 3 point attitude. I haven't done that as much yet, but I plan to. My landings are still inconsistent. A couple of greasers and then a couple of bouncers. It's all a part of the process and it's fun because it's an achievable goal.
 
Ultimately what did it for me was to improve my scan during the flare and look down the side of the nose a bit to get a better altitude reference. I'm still by no means relaxed and nailing every landing, but I'm passable, and not abusing the landing gear (mostly).

Was really nice to get that first flight in my own RV-8 today though.. that's for sure!
 
I've been struggling with landing 2' in the air during my transition training. It's frustrating because I feel like I'm just repeating my mistakes. I can't seem to find a good reference to my altitude once I start the round-out, and I'm consistently over-controlling and hunting for the ground on final (this is in Mike Seager's RV7). I'm confident I'll get it figured out, but man it's frustrating right now.

I just had a remarkably similar experience while doing some training with Mike. Since my 8 won't be finished until spring I'm going to go back for another 3 days and hopefully clean some things up.

What a great instructor he is though!
 
He absolutely is! I felt like I was really abusing his RV-7 at times, but he remained cool and collected and educating the entire time. I will say after spending 3 days with Mike that my initial flights in my 8 were an absolute non-issue. I now have about 25 landings in mine, and am feeling very confident with it, with the caveat that I'm expecting it to make a run for the weeds at any moment so not getting complacent with it..
 
STRAKES!!!

Ive have my RV 8 for 2 years...3 points were always challenging...then my buddy told me about Strakes..i installed them....WORLD OF DIFFERENCE!!!! MUCH MUCH easier to land!! HIGHLY RECOMMEND them!!
 
Strakes

Ive have my RV 8 for 2 years...3 points were always challenging...then my buddy told me about Strakes..i installed them....WORLD OF DIFFERENCE!!!! MUCH MUCH easier to land!! HIGHLY RECOMMEND them!!
Just curious - where did you by your strakes?
 
Ive have my RV 8 for 2 years...3 points were always challenging...then my buddy told me about Strakes..i installed them....WORLD OF DIFFERENCE!!!! MUCH MUCH easier to land!! HIGHLY RECOMMEND them!!

Strikes were all the rage for the RV-8 before folks figured out that good intersection fairings did the same thing and with lower drag - that was more than about a dozen years ago. So if you like them and are happy, that?s fine....but for folks building today, make (or install) intersection fairings and you can forgo the little things....
 
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