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Van's Yaw Servo Mount

unitink72

Well Known Member
A few questions regarding Van's kit for installing the yaw servo.

1. Sterling at Van's said it was meant for the RV-14 but could be "adapted" for the -10. Has anybody been through that process, can you tell me exactly what that entails?

2. I'm about to assemble the tailcone. Would it be wise to install this now? It looks like one of the mounting points is shared with the bellcrank support ribs. So if I did it later, those rivets would have to come out. Not a huge deal but would much rather get it all taken care of now.
75uZvoE.png


3. If you are flying the Dynon yaw servo, do you still see a need for yaw trim? I've asked a lot of folks this question, and have gotten a lot of conflicting answers.
 
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Yaw servo

Yes it is much easier to do it now rather than crawl back in there later to do it. No, you will not need trim. You might still need a trim piece on the rudder, as he yaw servo only trims the ball to center when it is engaged.

Vic
 
Josh,
I installed in my flying RV10, not a hard job just uncomfortable. I would install the bracket during the build since everything is open.

You'll still need to crawl into the luggage area at some point to install the servo, wiring and bridle cables.

Gary
 
Can anybody confirm that the 14 yaw servo kit bracket in the 14 G3X Yaw Servo Install Kit works fine in the -10? Was any modification needed?

If modification is/was needed, how extensive?

Thanks,
Rob Kelly
 
If modification is/was needed, how extensive?

Holes that are meant to clear an existing AN470 rivet need to be enlarged slightly to clear the rivet, which is about 1/8" out of center on the -10 compared to the hole position in the -14 bracket. In addition, a flange needed to be trimmed slightly to clear a plastic bushing. A few minutes with a file, and you're done.
 
-10 Yaw Bracket, Garmin -10 VS Vans -14 Bracket

Here is a look at the Garmin RV-10 Yaw Bracket vs the Vans RV-14 Yaw Bracket. Apples to apples cost comparison comes out to $750 for the Garmin -10 kit, approx $300 for the Vans -14 kit ($160 Vans yaw -14 kit + Garmin 115-01854-11 GSA 28 Attachment arm/bow) . I wanted to understand the differences and see if the -14 kit could be used in the -10 to save about $450 which I could spend on avionics goodies.

Garmin bracket is on left, already rivited, Vans on right with blue covering not riveted out of the box.
20171106_121245-900w.jpg


The rectangular bracket part with the channel cut out is an exact match on holes and geometry with the exception of the ears at the bottom (garmin ears are rounded) Vans are squared off. This is showing the brackets held back to back.
20171106_121325-900w.jpg


The other part is an exact match for the holes but the Vans -14 bracket is approx 1/2" shorter - meaning that if the Vans -14 bracket was used in the -10, the servo would sit approx 1/2 lower than if the Garmin -10 bracket was used. I'm guessing the -14 bracket mounting fins could be elongated or the mounting fins could just be attached 1/2" higher...

For those that have used the Vans -14 yaw bracket in a -10, did you simply mount the fins approx 1/2" higher?

20171106_121446-900w.jpg


20171106_121516-900w.jpg
 
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Rob,

Did the garmin bracket come with the bow for keeping the cables out of the servo?

Lynn
 
Rob,

Did the garmin bracket come with the bow for keeping the cables out of the servo?

Lynn

Yes, the Garmin yaw damper install package from Garmin includes everything needed, including the bow and the cables that attach to the rudder cables.

I bought the Garmin installation package last year before becoming aware that Van's offers one. It is a nice package, but very expensive for what you get.
 
I installed it the Dynon Bracket in my 10. Everything was fine except the distance span of the aft two mounting holes on the bracket was about 3/16 inch narrower than the corresponding holes where the bracket needs to attach. Elongating one hole made it fit. With way more 10?s flying than 14?s I was quite curious as to why Van?s produced this the way they did and why they were so coy about a ?slight modification? being necessary rather than making a bracket for each respective model (best) or at least defining the ?modification? (better) rather than just letting the builder figure it out. The tailcone is no comfortable place for field engineering.
All in all it wasn?t a big deal and having the yaw damper is a nice upgrade.
 
Hi Lynn - The Garmin -10 kit contains the bracket, bow and servo arm and necessary hardware. $750.

The Vans -14 yaw bracket doesn't contain the bow and arm,you have to purchase separately from Garmin . Between the Vans -14 kit $160, and Garmin bow and arm kit, ~$100, you have a complete kit as above. Quite a difference in price. Differences in bracket noted in the pictures.
 
For those that have used the Vans -14 yaw bracket in a -10, did you simply mount the fins approx 1/2" higher?


As someone that didn't like the idea of dropping $750 for the Garmin yaw kit I'm quite interested to hear what others have done with the Vans -14 kit. Anyone have photos of their install? Raabs, what are you thinking of doing, going with the Vans kit or using the more expensive Garmin kit.
 
After looking at the two kits on the workbench, the only differences are the 1/2" shorter Vans bracket and the Garmin price $490.00 more expensive. I think the -14 kit will be fine.

I would also like to see pics of somebodys intall of the -14 kit in the -10.
 
Btw, what I did for my 10 in order to delay purchasing/installing this (since it may change until I get to avionics) was simply to not install the top rivets on the bottom part of that bulkhead - lets me install it later somewhat easily (maybe with cherrymax rivets?).
 
While we're on the topic of pricey mounting hardware

anyone reverse-engineered or home-brewed a tiller arm/bow for the Dynon yaw servo? Seems very pricey for what it is, and easy to fab from a bit of aluminum plate and an old hacksaw blade :rolleyes:

All we'd need are a few major dimensions for hole spacing; the rest is eyeball-engineering with an eye towards keeping the cables from possibly fouling with anything.
 
I am stuck in the middle debating whether I should be putting electric rudder trim in my plane or not. This yaw damper will technically work like a rudder trim once engaged correct??
 
I asked that question of many folks, including Rob Hickman and dynon engineers. Generally from the engineer types you hear that you also need trim. Those flying will say you don't need it. I've heard the latter from enough people whose opinion I respect, that I'm going without rudder trim.
 
I started this process of mounting this today and here was my findings.

When I mount everything according to the drawing as shown in this picture, I will need to drill 2 new holes per side into the frames and bellcrank ribs. Rivet spacing should still be ok at .25 in o/c. Additionally, I will convert the middle 470 rivet to a 426 flush rivet to remove the conflict.


20180120_152429-e1516483500287.jpg



When I utililize the existing holes ...you guessed it the mount sits 1/2 inch proud of the bellcrank mount. The spacing for the bottom two holes results in 1/2 inch too low. I think this might explain why the mount from Garmin is 1/2 in taller...to mount in the bottom two holes.


20180120_154003-e1516483282463.jpg
 
Resurrecting an old thread: Does anyone have part number for just the Garmin "bow" - I'm going to use the Vans bracket for yaw damper on my RV-14, and can't find a part number for just the bow/arm as opposed to the very expensive full Garmin mounting kit.

Thanks
 
Engineers

Yeah, what do those engineers know, anyway...🤔

Could it be that the servos are much better at changing a position than continuously holding one? <rhetorical>
 
Good point, but with the damper centering the ball and the AP maintaining the desired heading where would adjustable rudder trim come into play, unless you were hand flying the plane?
 
Trim

The trim removes the conitous load from the servo. With the garmin system, for example, the roll servo and pitch servo can be wired with the electric trim to automatically trim off the control pressures to the servos. The rac servos are jackscrew type and are very good at holding a position, reducing the continuous load on the autopilot servo. So in the case of rudder trim and yd, the rudder trim would be used exactly the same, to reduce the load on the yd servo.

That being said, will the yd work as rudder trim, probably but there is a reason that the engineers recommend trim as well...
 
Just so we are on the same page here, are we talking about a yaw damper or rudder trim or both ?

If they are saying that the 10 and 14 are benefiting from a yaw damper, that casts clouds over the fundamental design process - surely ?

If we are saying it is rudder trim, I can see that is perfectly logical as anything with 200hp upwards generally benefits from rudder trim.
 
Both

Both are being discussed. Some are using both, others are using just the yaw damper to do double duty while noting that the engineers don?t recommend it...
 
Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade but I really don't think that the -10 needs any sort of rudder trim/yaw damper.

I have a very small wedge on the rudder which keeps me trimmed in the cruise and the offset thrust line pretty much takes care of the climb and descent - very little input needed.

By all means put whatever you want in your aircraft but I can't help thinking that the time, effort and money might be better spent elsewhere......
 
Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade but I really don't think that the -10 needs any sort of rudder trim/yaw damper.

I have a very small wedge on the rudder which keeps me trimmed in the cruise and the offset thrust line pretty much takes care of the climb and descent - very little input needed.

By all means put whatever you want in your aircraft but I can't help thinking that the time, effort and money might be better spent elsewhere......

Understood - I asked one expert for advice and it was recommended. Still thinking about it. I'm building a -14A, wondering if it has more or less need for yaw damper.
 
I think that, with these airplanes, it comes down to more of a want than a need...

True. I have 2 years, ~140 hours flying my RV-10. I have nothing but a small wedge taped to the rudder. The rudder forces needed for climb don't strike me as a lot different than a C-172. Barely touch pedal in descent to keep ball centered. Adding rudder trim would be a waste of time and money IMHO.
It did require some effort during Phase I getting the wedge sized right...started with longer wedge, kept snipping some off until it was right for cruise.
BTW, Dynon now sells the bow for $150 to go with the Vans kit.
Seriously thinking about the yaw kit for passenger comfort, for those that are sensitive to air sickness.
 
Like Paul 330 I think a simple fix that takes care of most rudder yaw trim issues is the little wedge. Just as a matter of interest, I was at Oshkosh last year and noticed the yellow Vans RV10 demonstrator had a small rudder trim.............. but on the starboard side, don’t remember ever seeing one on that side before.
 
My need for rudder adjustment seems to change with different flight configurations, wind direction, but the Aerosport rudder trim makes a capable adjustment for each situation,. I suppose that is the reason yaw trim would be nice for an automatic adjustment.
 
Anyone having luck with obtaining the 115-01854-11 $180 subkit referenced in the drawings? It's not available anymore from what I can tell, with Garmin pushing you to buy the ~$750 kit instead.
 
Actually stein was able to source one. I'm wary though, in talking to another avionics shop he made it sound like garmin is pulling the plug on selling it separately outside of buying the whole $750 kit from them.
 
Hmm

Looks like garmin is doing what lycoming did when they stopped selling the experimental engine kits...

Why get a piece of the overpriced pie when you can have it all...
 
Just wanted to highlight how I went about this. I have a new -10 kit and wanted to get this yaw damper mount installed during the tailcone process instead of doing a retrofit later.

As others have noted here, the "14 G3X YAW SERVO INSTALL KIT" installs just fine in the 10, and is substantially cheaper than the garmin equivalent. You will also need the garmin 115-01854-11 kit, which as of this writing SteinAir still has as a purchaseable part.

The main issue with installation of Van's bracket vs Garmin is the alignment of holes on the bulkhead. It's still an easily solved issue, however, one thing I didn't like is that all of the pieces of the battery box/elevator bellcrank/etc are removable with screws, but the yaw servo installation bracket is done with rivets meaning it will be permanently sticking up in the way when you try to enter the tailcone in the future. I decided now was the opportunity to try and also make it so you can remove the mount in the future should it be necessary.

The bracket looks like this:

6H284Hz.png


The way it is intended to be installed is that the two smaller holes get riveted to the bulkhead, and the center hole is large enough to slip over the head of the existing rivet already in the bulkhead. Instead of that, I riveted a doubler plate to each of the feet using the existing rivet holes with the flush head on the fwd side that lays up against the bulkhead. When mounted it looked like this:

DQA2ajP.jpg


Now with this in place, drilling through the center hole in the bulkhead through the existing hole in the bracket and making a new hole in the doubler, we now have a place where a screw can go. This means you now install a nutplate on the bulkhead with the flush head on the rear side where the bracket sits.

fs7aOY4.jpg


zpwLRBR.jpg


Now when you go to install the bracket, it's completely installed with screws and can be removed later if needed.
 
I installed similar kit in my RV-14A. I replaced the rivets on the bulkhead with screws to make it removable (discussed with Van's and they were OK with it).
 
If I may re-pose a question

not replied to in December when I first asked:

Has anyone reverse-engineered or home-brewed a tiller arm/bow for the Dynon yaw servo? Seems very pricey for what it is, and easy to fab from a bit of aluminum plate and an old hacksaw blade.

All we'd need are a few major dimensions for hole spacing; the rest is eyeball-engineering with an eye towards keeping the cables from possibly fouling with anything.

Can someone post up a pic of their tiller bow alongside a ruler?
 
Now with this in place, drilling through the center hole in the bulkhead through the existing hole in the bracket and making a new hole in the doubler, we now have a place where a screw can go. This means you now install a nutplate on the bulkhead with the flush head on the rear side where the bracket sits.

...

Now when you go to install the bracket, it's completely installed with screws and can be removed later if needed.

Thanks for the tip that Stein has the servo mounting kit. Went ahead and ordered it while it's still available.
Also wondering if just a single nutplate per side is sufficient to hold it on. Anyone else do something similar and how did it work out? Think it's a good idea, but personally think I would rather have two nutplates per side, just need to get the parts in my hands to work out the details.
 
My calipers say it's 0.075" - sorry I missed that originally. The bottom part is steel, rainbow colors a little bit so I guess heat treated or anodized? The bow looks to be stainless to me, but I don't know a good way to verify vs. aluminum without grinding on it.
 
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Van?s Yaw Servo Mount

I keep scratching my head - why all this effort and money and complexity for something not necessary? Got 800 hours on my 10 and the effort to step on the ball for a few seconds each flight hardly needs a fix.

Yaw dampers are needed on some designs (Bonanza), maybe a 14 (don?t know), but certainly not a 10. Of course, it is your nickle and time.
 
I keep scratching my head - why all this effort and money and complexity for something not necessary? Got 800 hours on my 10 and the effort to step on the ball for a few seconds each flight hardly needs a fix.

Yaw dampers are needed on some designs (Bonanza), maybe a 14 (don’t know), but certainly not a 10. Of course, it is your nickle and time.

I need enough right rudder pressure in level flight at cruise speeds that it gets annoying after a bit.

Every RV is different.
 
But

That is NOT what a yaw damper is for...needing constant rudder pressure is a job for rudder TRIM, not a yaw damper. In fact, it specifically says in the Garmin installation manual that the yaw damper isn't to be used as a trim replacement.

That being said, from most reports here, the installation of the yaw damper works fairly well in this airplane as trim...
 
"That is NOT what a yaw damper is for...needing constant rudder pressure is a job for rudder TRIM, not a yaw damper. In fact, it specifically says in the Garmin installation manual that the yaw damper isn't to be used as a trim replacement."


That being said and undoubtedly true, how about temporarily putting an amp meter in the power circuit for the yaw damper to see how hard it's working to center the ball? I would think max climb attitude at WOT would be the worst case scenario.
 
Naw, man

Yaw dampers aren't for rudder trim - they're for making the wife comfortable on cross-countries, even when most pilots feel they aren't really necessary. ;)

Enough RV-10 drivers have weighed in here on VAF saying they/their passengers love their yaw dampers that it only took realizing it was already coded into the AFS software to convince me to outfit my build for eventual inclusion of an SV-42 servo in that role. It'll be one of the last things I buy, after phase I, most likely. Won't cost any extra to add the feature set to the EFIS, just the hardware. For that cost, I decided that at least the bracket and tiller bow were worth the investment for now.

Update: I got a good deal on a gently used SV-42, so I made the tiller/bow and won't be waiting until later in phase 1 to add that functionality.
 
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I need enough right rudder pressure in level flight at cruise speeds that it gets annoying after a bit.

Every RV is different.
Why would you not correct the level flight rudder with some form of wedge or trim tab so that rudder is only needed when climbing or descending?
I flew for a couple years with a wedge, which was fine, but I didn't like it that much for appearance, so I fabricated a tab to attach under the tail nav light that is just metal extended to the left side from tail light and bent back sufficient amount. It is a bit more sensitive than the wedge was, but keeps ball dead center in level cruise. Then the yaw servo would only operate in turbulence and climb and descent. I can't envision leaving the rudder with no trim device to eliminate rudder usage in level flight.
 
Why would you not correct the level flight rudder with some form of wedge or trim tab so that rudder is only needed when climbing or descending?
I flew for a couple years with a wedge, which was fine, but I didn't like it that much for appearance, so I fabricated a tab to attach under the tail nav light that is just metal extended to the left side from tail light and bent back sufficient amount. It is a bit more sensitive than the wedge was, but keeps ball dead center in level cruise. Then the yaw servo would only operate in turbulence and climb and descent. I can't envision leaving the rudder with no trim device to eliminate rudder usage in level flight.


My plan is to add the aerosport rudder trim first, then YD to make the wife happy.
 
When installing the YD mount and the pitch trim bracket, they use the same aft holes on the surface of the bell-crank bracket. Are shimms or washers used under the pitch trim bracket?
 
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