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Hazard of quartering tail wind

David-aviator

Well Known Member
Budd Davisson commented at OSH forum about hazard of landing in quartering tail wind.

It is indeed a squirrelly experience, had it happen again today, makes you feel like going back to drawing board.

The airplane wants to head for boonies half flying half skidding while trying to get slowed down. Finally got tail wheel down and control of direction. Really a challenge.

And it happens with as little as 6 knots reported wind, but as he commented, reported wind and what is experienced on runway are never same. Even wind sock 20' up does not reflect surface wind.

We have to deal with whatever wind is and be aware it will be tricky if comes from rear.
 
Honestly, I am not trying to start a configuration debate.

I am curious if Budds comentary was for all craft or specifically taildraggers.
Is it the post touchdown regime you described where one has to be careful?

I ask because one airport I fly into weekly for cheap gas frequently has a tailwind (usually a northerly breeze on the right rear quarter) on the most convenient runway. The tower always asks if I mind that one. Nope. Really has not been an issue. Happened today.

I want to make sure I'm not being oblivious to a flying aspect that needs attention.
 
It is a tail dragger issue. Has something to do with partial loss of control before tail is down.

Just something tail wheel pilots should be aware of.

He did say he has cancelled flying because of it. That got my attention.
 
Tailwind

Budd primarily flyers the Pitts which is a handful in any situation, especially in a quarterly tailwind. Also might apply to all others in a lesser way.
 
Everyone knows landing downwind in any airplane results in a faster than normal groundspeed, that's why we try to land upwind. Landing downwind your primary nose pointing device (rudder) will lose authority at a faster speed than normal. That leaves either brakes or a steerable wheel. If the steerable tailwheel is still in the air due to a wheel landing, better be right there with the brakes. Or 3 point it for more control.
Uh oh, wheel or 3 point.
 
Budd primarily flyers the Pitts which is a handful in any situation, especially in a quarterly tailwind. Also might apply to all others in a lesser way.

While refueling on a sumer vacation trip, I heard a propellor and engine winding up to take off power followed by a very loud but dull thud, followed by total silence. I stood up and looked in the direction of the thud. A new pitts owner had tried a take off with a light quartering tailwind and discovered the expensive way, that when the ground speed equalled the tail wind speed the rudder had absolutely zero ability to keep him lined up. Worse yet the cross wind component of the quartering tail wind has considerable effect when you don't have any rudder. The runway broke about 18" of one prop blade completely off. The runway had a wild set of skid marks from the mains , wingtip and propellor. The pitts looked like a lawn dart stuck in the runway with the tail several feet up almost vertical. A multi thousand hour ag pilot was helping to clear the runway so we could all get on our way again. The 6 hour pitts pilot was adamant that standing on the rudder had absolutely no effect. He just didn't understand the physics at play. The ag pilot calmly said that even with a few thousand hours, that he just would not do a quartering tailwind take off or landing, period.
I was thinking how much nicer that sounded than "Do you feel lucky, Punk ? "

Be very vigilant, the same physics are at play with any TW AC in a quartering tailwind.
 
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The trap is a light and variable wind.

ATIS was reporting a 6 knot wind almost down the runway but I heard tower report a light 90 degree cross wind to pilot ahead of me. When I turned final the report was "light and variable", a euphemism for "don't ask for change of runway".

The tower is good at swapping runways, they've done it for me, but some days it won't help, the wind is just too unpredictable.

That was the set up yesterday, it was a quartering tail wind when I landed. Ten minutes later it was not so.

Makes flying interesting.....BLAH!
 
The 6 hour pitts pilot...

The wind may have been a slight factor, but I think the above is what actually sums it up. A Pitts at full power generates a lot of prop wash over a powerful rudder. Would take a helluva quartering tailwind to take this away. A "light quartering tailwind" won't do it. He had other issues going with that take off.
 
The wind may have been a slight factor, but I think the above is what actually sums it up. A Pitts at full power generates a lot of prop wash over a powerful rudder. Would take a helluva quartering tailwind to take this away. A "light quartering tailwind" won't do it. He had other issues going with that take off.

Agreed 100%.

We had a Pitts for 19 years. It was the most powerful rudder *by far* of any airplane I've ever flown. Couple that with a significant amount of gyroscopic stability at full power and it was not the monster people claim it to be. Something else was going on. Had it happened on landing, I'd be more inclined to blame the wind.

Otoh, I generally agree with the original post. Quartering tailwinds can be a challenge for sure given the right (wrong?) airplane - especially during a wheel landing. Something to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to three point it.
 
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Good insight

Landing downwind your primary nose pointing device (rudder) will lose authority at a faster speed than normal.
That's a good insight right there. On takeoff, my rudder doesn't gain authority until about 40 KIAS. I usually line up left of centerline aiming 5 degrees right so I make a nice arc to the centerline so I don't have to drag the brakes. My tiny little tires will flat-spot themselves if I apply brakes above 45 KIAS. I have to be very careful landing in any kind of crosswind.

So would this same theory apply on a very cold day?
 
Agreed 100%.

We had a Pitts for 19 years. It was the most powerful rudder *by far* of any airplane I've ever flown. Couple that with a significant amount of gyroscopic stability at full power and it was not the monster people claim it to be. Something else was going on. Had it happened on landing, I'd be more inclined to blame the wind.

Otoh, I generally agree with the original post. Quartering tailwinds can be a challenge for sure given the right (wrong?) airplane - especially during a wheel landing. Something to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to three point it.

Excellent, excellent point about wheel vrs 3 point landing....and a reason I need to shape up and do more near 3 pointers with the 8. I do believe getting the tail wheel down sooner than later would help in such conditions.
 
Tail winds

I've flown over 3500 hours in tailwheel airplanes from a Pitts to DC3's. The 3 has a demonstrated xwind of 13 kts. And 5 kt. quartering tailwind. My recommendation is never, I repeat never land with a quartering tailwind. You are asking for trouble, I have done it on one way strips, but it is wrong. Wait for a headwind or xwind, but no quarters. I was safety officer for a military tailwheel airplane and we didn't want anyone to land with a quarting tailwind, several tried and several ground looped.
 
Over 3,000 hours in tailwheel RVs. I always tell others to takeoff and land into the wind. At my home airport, I will take off downhill and land uphill with wind any direction as long as it is below 5 kts. It pretty much does not matter to me in my RV-6 what wind direction is at any airport as long as it is less than 5 kts. IF I were to be flying another RV, it would be into the wind.

I once watched two RVs land at an airport that had 3-knots of quartering tailwind. Both landed without issue BUT when one of them turned to exit the runway it went up on its nose. The tail was in the air and pilot in the cockpit till it was pulled down by someone on the ground.

My RV-6 handles crosswind landings with either wheel landings or 3-point landings. Most of my landings the past 10-years have been wheel landings but will typically 3-point with strong or gusting crosswinds. The 3-point is just my personal preference and I tell others that they should use what they like and feel safest doing.
 
Advice

my instructor used to say...."It's better to fly into the wind and break ground that the other way around...."
 
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