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RV6A Loops 101

Plumbmaster

Active Member
I'm looking for some step by step input for dong a loop in my RV6A. Powered by a 160 HP O320 with a constant speed prop but without inverted oil and fuel, I'm looking for the prop setting, entry speed, initial "G" pull, stick movement at various stages etc. I've joined the IAC and have made one acquaintance, but he's flying a different type aircraft, has inverted oil, fuel injection etc. Thus I would like to get some model specific input if possible.
The purpose here is to start a conversation about primary aerobatics only. This is not for instructional purposes and should not be used as such.;)
 
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Hi Ron,

To modify an old joke about high dollar purchases, "If you gotta ask, don't."

Seriously, don't try to teach yourself acro in an RV. At minimum, get someone who has experience to fly with you, or get instruction from a pro if you can afford it. Doing a loop in an RV is easier and simpler that a lot of other planes, but if you 'fall out' of a maneuver, the plane can overspeed much quicker than more traditional acro a/c. Years ago, a friend tried to teach himself acro in a homebuilt with similar performance and killed himself.

Having said that, I'll answer your question. In my fixed pitch 160hp RV-4, I do all the basic variations on loops and rolls starting at cruise power, and rarely if ever touch the throttle during a maneuver, even on the back side of a loop. With a c/s prop, the burden of throttle management is even less.

FWIW,

Charlie
 
After some basic aerobatic training, your question will be self-evident even if you did not train in an RV.
 
From cruise speed, pull the stick back until only blue is visible outside.
Continue to pull until only brown visible, pull some more until the normal attitude is back. Stop pulling. Keeps the wings level.
If more detailed instructions are required take some training.

Initial speed is not critical, the amount you pull is. Modulating the pull as the picture changes from blue to brown is also important. Best way to find out is get someone to show you. Teaching yourself can be (very) unhealthy.
 
RV acro is not special. Just get some training in a Decathlon and understand the RV is cleaner.
I am not telling you HOW to do a loop. As luddite42 said, good advice, get some dual, understand before you start.

Second, there are things you should do and think of before looping your RV. You should start at 3000 feet AGL and practice stalls and stall recovery. Stalls (and spins) are always possible with a poorly executed aerobatic maneuver. Consider practicing stalls and doing steep turns to get your feel for stick force and G force.

Blue line or maneuvering speed is 134 mph. We are not doing abrupt maneuvers, just be aware. 180 mph is bottom of yellow, or smooth air speed. 210 mph is red line, never exceed.

A loop can be done easily at 3G's initial pull up. In fact all aerobatics in the RV can be done at 3G or less. Make sure your seat belts are tight and secure. With constant speed prop you can just set throttle and RPM and leave it. Fixed pitch prop may require some throttle use. Make sure your W&B are in CG and aerobatic weight. Make sure you are in an area legal for aerobatics (not on an airway), and clear the area for traffic...

A loop starts in level cruse flight (recommend start at or below yellow line 180 mph); you are +1G (straight and level), force pushing you in seat. Negative G is pulling you our of your seat (which you should not feel in a loop). We consider load factor "G" to be vertical, perpendicular to the wing in any attitude.

Initiate a moderate straight and level cruise (under 180 MPH bottom of yellow line) and pull up smoothly to 3G. (2.5-3.5 will work but beginning 3G is about right). Having a G meter helps. There is some significant stick pressure (like in a steep turn), but again don't over load and don't be abrupt. Blue line or maneuvering speed is 134 MPH.

Too little pull up you will run out of airspeed before getting over the top. Too much you are needlessly loading the plane and may have excess speed at the bottom of loop. As you go through the loop you will release the back pressure continuously, to make a round loop (not an egg shape).

At first 90 degrees look left and right out the wings to see your position in loop and make sure you are going straight (up). You may need a little rudder to keep from yawing and making the loop fall over to the side. This is your chance to get orientated. You speed should have bleed off to about 125 mph

As you reach the top of the loop, inverted 180 degrees from direction started, you have released most or all of the back pressure. At the top of the loop you will be above stall speed, say 70-80 mph (Vs = 59 mph bottom of green) and less than 1G. Anything over 0.0 G is positive. You want to have about +0.5G +/- . You want to keep some positive G. Some folks float over the top, adding some forward stick. Engines and fuel will be OK for a few seconds near zero G, I don't do that. Speed over top should be over stall with margin (and not too fast either). Again look out the wings, and look out top of canopy, to see your position over the ground; did you get off heading (typically you use a road to line up with)? Keep track of your progress through the maneuver and check your speed and attitude is as planned.

As you start down the back side you will feel the G forces built (and hear airspeed build) back up. You increase stick back pressure smoothly.... At the bottom you should be a 3G and same speed you started with (180 mph for example) and same altitude (approximately). You may even hit your own wake turbulence. Do not go over 210 Vne ever.... You will also be looking at altitude because you are trying to level off at entry altitude. At the straight down line look out wings and again see your position and heading.

Going through loop you see speed slowly decay from 180 to 70 mph for example, then build back on the back side. The initial 3G will go to 0.5 G over the top, back to 3G at bottom... If not doing another loop you release back pressure at the bottom, straight and level, going from 3G to 1G, and that is the end of maneuver.

It is way harder to explain than do. I start students doing 3G pull ups and then knocking it off and leveling off. Doing steep turns and getting warmed up for G's is a good start... As was suggested get some aerobatic dual. There are great books on aerobatics as well.... RV aerobatics are fun, easy and safe but it is serious business, so have a plan. However I say easy. To do a loop or roll is easy, to do them well, is very difficult and takes real dedication.
 
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From cruise speed, pull the stick back until only blue is visible outside.
Continue to pull until only brown visible, pull some more until the normal attitude is back. Stop pulling. Keeps the wings level.
If more detailed instructions are required take some training.
Please do not follow this advice. Constantly increasing the pull all the way around with no reference to G is a good way to stall or snap roll off the top unexpectedly.
 
Thanks Carl

Thanks Carl. I found that issue among my old RVators.

Ron, I was lucky enough to find Greg Koontz for some aerobatic instruction last year. He asked me what my goals were to which I responded, "To be able to roll and loop my plane without killing myself". To that end we did 4 hours of flying and lots of ground instruction. The first three hours of air work were in his beautiful Decathlon and the last hour was in my 6A. We did a lot of spin recovery training in the Decathlon.

The toughest thing for me was to make myself pull enough G's in the loops. He likes about 3.2, and I would usually max out at about 2.8 G's. Neither plane had trouble completing the loop at 2.8 G's, but I'm working to get the feel of 3+ G's and over-coming my over-cautious tendency with respect to pulling G's to make better loops. I should say, that it took a couple of lessons to start getting over feeling yucky. But, it gets better if you persist.

After doing a few loops in my plane, he thought that my best loops happened when I pulled 3.2 G's and held the stick in the same position until I got over the top. He emphasized that when you're inverted at the top and if you get close to a stall that you need to push the stick forward a little. Makes sense when you think about it, but seemed counter-intuitive to me at the time.

I really enjoyed Greg's two day course at his private strip in Ashville, AL and learned a lot. He is a very knowledgeable airshow pilot, and the setup at Sky Country Lodge is very conducive to learning.

Looking forward to studying and applying Van's advice now that Fall weather is kicking in.

John
 
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Not covered in many aerobatic guidelines: Once you have reached a safe altitude, do some clearing turns, just like you should have been taught for stalls, turns around a point, etc...
It also isn?t a bad idea to announce your position, operating area and intentions. My two favorite ?practice? areas are also areas that can have frequent local flight school activity, which is just about everywhere in these parts.
 
One more thing about loops. When I was getting some dual in a RV-4, we did a loop and I was told to try and get a stall buffet and recover at the top of the loop....

So inverted I increased back pressure and felt the buffet. I released the back pressure and the plane recovered, buffeting stopped immediately. The point, RV is pretty docile and will give you warning, and it fly's the same upside down as right side up.

The other point as was made above, just don't yank it back and hold on for it to come back around. You actually FLY the plane through the loop. That is why I mentioned LOOKING OUT THE CANOPY. You need to have situational awareness. Know about what airspeed, attitude and G's you should have at each part of the loop....

To do a loop by just pulling back and not adjusting your flight path (stick pressure) is like driving a race car at full speed into a turn and turning the wheel, holding that constant, closing your eyes and opening them when you think you are about to come out of the turn.... It might work out... might not.
 
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The Edge Is Still Part of the Envelope

As a former Navy A-4 Adversary pilot who spent a lot of time maneuvering the A-4 at the edge of a departure, the primary thing to keep in mind when maneuvering - the airplane doesn't know or care what its attitude with respect to the horizon is. It's all about angle of attack - the relative flow of air over the wing.

If you get uncomfortable and are nose high, stop the roll rate, hold the wing attitude regardless of where the horizon is, push forward on the stick and unload the g. You may be uncomfortable with negative g, and it may seem like it's taking forever for the nose to fall through the horizon and regain normal flight, but the plane will not depart/stall/spin when unloaded. Level the wings after the plane breaks the horizon and you have sufficient airspeed.

If you are nose down, power to idle, roll to the horizon, level the wings, then pull.
 
If you dont have any acro experience

As a former Navy A-4 Adversary pilot who spent a lot of time maneuvering the A-4 at the edge of a departure, the primary thing to keep in mind when maneuvering - the airplane doesn't know or care what its attitude with respect to the horizon is. It's all about angle of attack - the relative flow of air over the wing.

If you get uncomfortable and are nose high, stop the roll rate, hold the wing attitude regardless of where the horizon is, push forward on the stick and unload the g. You may be uncomfortable with negative g, and it may seem like it's taking forever for the nose to fall through the horizon and regain normal flight, but the plane will not depart/stall/spin when unloaded. Level the wings after the plane breaks the horizon and you have sufficient airspeed.

If you are nose down, power to idle, roll to the horizon, level the wings, then pull.

Get some training before you do it solo.
Its pretty simple but there are many ways to botch it up and you wont remember to push roll power stablize... you dont want to tail slide your rv
Cm
 
Over the Top...

I'm looking for some step by step input for dong a loop in my RV6A. Powered by a 160 HP O320 with a constant speed prop but without inverted oil and fuel, I'm looking for the prop setting, entry speed, initial "G" pull, stick movement at various stages etc. I've joined the IAC and have made one acquaintance, but he's flying a different type aircraft, has inverted oil, fuel injection etc. Thus I would like to get some model specific input if possible.
The purpose here is to start a conversation about primary aerobatics only. This is not for instructional purposes and should not be used as such.;)

Ron
Several good posts above.
Bottom line, after 25 years of positive G (non inverted fuel/oil) aerobatics in my RV4/HR2 and RVX plus a few years (25) in the F16, my advice? (like you've heard before), Get some training!
Not that the level of difficulty is high, but RV's build up speed quickly with the nose buried and a demonstration of a few basics will help.
There are several RV guys out there and experienced CFI's who might give you some basic Acro instruction, Patty Wagstaff for one...

But hey Mav, if nobody else will will fly with you, let me know...

https://youtu.be/LgrVhdZde5U
RVX Basic Acro 101...

V/R
Smokey
 
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Loops 101 Thanks

Hi guys,
Thanks for the responses.
Special thanks goes to to gmcjetpilot for providing the blow by blow progression of the maneuver.
Because I do not have a death wish, I'm on the hunt for an instructor in my area. To date my greatest weakness is the fact that I ave not performed a single spin in either of the two aircraft I ave owned. Primarily because the Cessna 150 was not spin certified and I'm unclear as to the rules regarding spins in RV's.

I fly a lot (100 hrs in the last four months) have a g meter and have done steep turns to the tune of 3.3 G's. I'm aware of not being within 4 nautical miles of an airway, staying clear of congested areas and doing clearing turns.

Lastly, as an aside, I spent the last couple of days in mainland China. No gmail, no internet to speak of. Interestingly enough, I was able to pick up CNN. The point of all this is we truly are a free country!
 
Thanks John

Thanks Carl. I found that issue among my old RVators.

Ron, I was lucky enough to find Greg Koontz for some aerobatic instruction last year. He asked me what my goals were to which I responded, "To be able to roll and loop my plane without killing myself". To that end we did 4 hours of flying and lots of ground instruction. The first three hours of air work were in his beautiful Decathlon and the last hour was in my 6A. We did a lot of spin recovery training in the Decathlon.

The toughest thing for me was to make myself pull enough G's in the loops. He likes about 3.2, and I would usually max out at about 2.8 G's. Neither plane had trouble completing the loop at 2.8 G's, but I'm working to get the feel of 3+ G's and over-coming my over-cautious tendency with respect to pulling G's to make better loops. I should say, that it took a couple of lessons to start getting over feeling yucky. But, it gets better if you persist.

After doing a few loops in my plane, he thought that my best loops happened when I pulled 3.2 G's and held the stick in the same position until I got over the top. He emphasized that when you're inverted at the top and if you get close to a stall that you need to push the stick forward a little. Makes sense when you think about it, but seemed counter-intuitive to me at the time.

I really enjoyed Greg's two day course at his private strip in Ashville, AL and learned a lot. He is a very knowledgeable airshow pilot, and the setup at Sky Country Lodge is very conducive to learning.

Looking forward to studying and applying Van's advice now that Fall weather is kicking in.

John
Thanks John.
 
...I ave not performed a single spin in either of the two aircraft I ave owned. Primarily because the Cessna 150 was not spin certified and I'm unclear as to the rules regarding spins in RV's.

The only rules regarding spins in RVs are whatever your ops limits state. Unless you fly an RV-10, a DAR won't limit spins in an RV. Otherwise, you select Phase I test maneuvers as you see fit, common sense and stated Vans limitations considered. There is no issue with spinning the 'aerobatic' RV models. Cessna 150's are legal to spin if the simple rudder stop AD is c/w. C-150's spin great.
 
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