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Post Your Improved OSH Arrival Ideas Here...

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I hope CB and Vic are looking at this thread too.

1. Move bottleneck out to C47 (Portage).
2. New altitudes for slow movers. Cubs,Tri-Pacers-----1300' and =<70 Kts
3. Use repeater to broadcast ATIS >100 miles
4. From Portage, 3 hold points that need monitoring, LAKES--Puckaway,Green,Rush.
5. Put strobes back on railroad tracks. If you can't see them you are in wrong place.
6. No HEAVY METAL till 3 PM Monday---TFR TIME
7. NORDO. NOT APPROVED. Borrow radio from your buddy.
8. NO FLY OUT ZONE. 181* -------269* (ON NOTAM)
9. Warbird arrival. Overheads OK 36R BUT you must land on 36R. Switching left and right within 1 mile.
10. All ADSB and Transponders off with in 50 miles.


Next year is 15 for me.
I will be landing on Saturday EARLY.

BOOMER
 
CB's here!

CB here!

Many minds are thinking this through.

I had some discussions this evening that includes a lot of what you say here and MORE!

<<<< DISCLAIMER: What I am saying here is **NOT** the position of the Board as that will take a lot of analysis and testing of the proposals. Also, I was not at a meeting later in the week as I had to depart for a must-do meeting in DC. So, even though shared with someone at the forefront of this, these are just some OPINIONS from me.>>>>.

1. I agree with moving the bottleneck out AND adding more logical places for planes to be and not get all bunched up. That way, it would a lot more planes to jam up the works.

2. "Low and slow" comes to mind. My Champ could barely do 90kts falling out the sky. Also, the 60-70kt planes are used to being slow and following "nearby" :) landmarks.

3. A repeater could be good but I also think that discreet frequencies unique to each "feeder" area or point would be in order. Allows a better management of the flow when things go bad. If all is well then everyone gets the same message.

4. I added another similar point. It too fed into Ripon eventually and had a logical holding space if it were needed. Along a logical route. Adds maybe 3-4 nm to route versus "Direct To".

5. I like put strobes back. Since I have had to fly in commercial the last three years, was not aware they were not there.

6. Hmmm ... Don't think I agree with this one. Just make sure that said arrivals don't clog up the system.

7. Coming to this event "NORDO" during the busy/active time without some SPECIAL dispensation should result in a "visit".

8. Need to think about it.

9. Need to think about it.

10. ADS-B could potentially be an asset in a revamped set of procedures.

Comments are being gathered and reviewed far and wide. Proposals will take some time. Solution/Improvement implementation will take longer.

But we have a few months. :)



2urm2hk.png


I hope CB and Vic are looking at this thread too.

1. Move bottleneck out to C47 (Portage).
2. New altitudes for slow movers. Cubs,Tri-Pacers-----1300' and =<70 Kts
3. Use repeater to broadcast ATIS >100 miles
4. From Portage, 3 hold points that need monitoring, LAKES--Puckaway,Green,Rush.
5. Put strobes back on railroad tracks. If you can't see them you are in wrong place.
6. No HEAVY METAL till 3 PM Monday---TFR TIME
7. NORDO. NOT APPROVED. Borrow radio from your buddy.
8. NO FLY OUT ZONE. 181* -------269* (ON NOTAM)
9. Warbird arrival. Overheads OK 36R BUT you must land on 36R. Switching left and right within 1 mile.
10. All ADSB and Transponders off with in 50 miles.


Next year is 15 for me.
I will be landing on Saturday EARLY.

BOOMER
 
This is not an arrival issue per se, but I noticed sitting on the side of 18/36 Sunday was the "warbirds" and straight in traffic crossing the light, VFR traffic. That's just not smart, and I'm no aviation genius. If you can't land your P-51 or your Challenger on 36R, then you might need to not fly to Oshkosh. I know personally of several instances where people were cleared for the (36) right had to fly under heavier traffic landing on the left.
 
I survived the Fisk arrival on sunday afternoon (but diverted after 2.5 hrs holding)...

The problem is ACCOUNTABILITY. This arrival works great if everyone follows the rules. But they don’t, and they didnt. And in the future, they WON’T! Unless they are somehow held accountable for blatantly disregarding the Notam. In fact, I witnessed multiple offenders actually being REWARDED by being given a right turn to 36 after passing me between ripon and fisk!.

You can publish two arrival gates, stagger arrivals based on tail numbers, implement reservation number....none of that will matter if the offenders dont get punished for non compliance. Their desire to get there trumps safety and rules.

I know, because I, and many of you witnessed it first hand sunday.
 
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Requirements for solution?

So,... solutions start with requirements,..... ( and should be guided by facts / analysis)....

While we wait for facts and figures..... how about some brainstorming on REQUIREMENTS,...not point solutions

1. MAXIMIZE runway arrival (ground handling) rate
2. FAIRNESS in who gets in or not,... (not who can endanger the most)
3. MINIMIZE the number of aircraft in same area at same time
4. MINIMIZE the number of places to merge (make it obvious if someone cuts in otherwise)
5. MAXIMIZE flexibility to change and adapt to arrival load (control and reduce plane density if arrivals exceed capacity)
6. COMMUNICATE status of and approach protocol in use (and status of open or closed holding areas)
 
I've probably flown the arrival into OSH about 75 times over the past 20 years now. Maybe more than that. Before I had an RV, I would fly in and fly home every day for the show, a few days during the week. I've only had about 3 really sporty days trying to get into OSH, and only one that really got to the point of dangerous. That one time I'm sure not nearly as bad as what friends got to fly in on Saturday this year, and it happened after a temporary airport closure/hold was released.

My opinion is that largely, the changes do not need to be extreme. This was just a bad year on those days due to weather. I flew in and out 3 times this year during the show. None were bad for me. I do think that they can improve things a bit though.

1) I agree that NORDO should not be allowed. You need to at minimum have the ability to listen to ATIS, and FISK, and TWR. No, it may not be practical in some planes to require them to transmit, but going into OSH without the ability to hear commands is just not something to allow, unless perhaps it's a show plane on a special arrival with special handling, due to a hardware failure.

2) Something should be done for planes that can't reach 90kts on the approach. It's a real hazard to everyone else when someone is flying 75kts. I'd say we need 3 arrivals, but that becomes tricky because first of all, I don't like the idea of stacking them in altitude, and second, we only have 2 runway directions to choose from. If there is significant wind, many of these slow planes will need the proper runway for the wind. When landing 18/36, that's ok, because you could give them the taxiway. But for 9/27 they would have to merge with one of the other feeds of planes.

3) Amateur Built should be preferred for Runway 18/36. Standard GA should be preferred for runway 9/27. The parking for GA other than vintage is mostly on the North part of the field. So, have them fly the 9/27 arrival. But, if you're a 135kt arrival person, you should be 18/36 unless unable. That means the RVs will be mixing it up with Twins and fast planes for 36L. They could still put slow planes in on 36R. (Mass arrivals excluded...people like watching them on 18/36, so just let them be, but, they must adhere to a schedule)

4) The arrivals should be done to GPS fixes. Maybe we should even be "GPS required" at this point. Using GPS fixes it would be easy to list crossing altitudes and separate traffic arrivals to the various runways. The Choke point of Fisk should maybe be moved further out as well, to give more distance to do this routing on the arrivals. Ripon to Fisk was a good idea pre-GPS, because it was a visual highway to the field, but GPS is mostly universal now, so lets use the technology to help the arrivals. Maybe various speed arrivals could come in from different fixes, and each could have it's own area to hold if necessary, before reaching the chokepoint.

Regarding ADS-B, when it's mostly common place after 2020 it'll be a benefit, I think. I do NOT think ADS-B should be turned off. If anything, I'd rather have it be required, but I don't think it's necessary to impose that on some of those low and slow planes. It could give a lot of good info to the FAA for controlling these arrivals better in the future.

I would also agree that a $100 fine for not having a copy of the NOTAM on board would be totally appropriate.

Now, with all that said, I think the current procedures could still be workable as-is, except during bad weather situations. I really feel we didn't get the "A" group of FAA controllers this year, after listening to them on the radio for a few hours and seeing how they did. That's not an insult to any one controller, as I know they tried, but, clearly we've had excellent controllers in the past and I don't think they reached that level of excellence this year, even when it wasn't crushingly busy.

The number one thing we can do to fix the problem is make bad weather illegal, and fine mother nature for any ceilings lower than 2300'. :D Beyond that, sure, we can improve things, but changes may not even be necessary if the PILOTS and the CONTROLLERS both bring their A game instead of being sub standard. There were plenty of problems caused by poor or non-compliant pilots this year, and there were plenty poorly performing controllers as well. I watched for minutes at a time on saturday when NOBODY was landing on runway 9/27, that the infinite hold could have been thinning down. That wasn't the pilots at fault. It takes more situational awareness on the controllers behalf. In fact, if they used ADS-B they could have been directing people by tail number to head for the runway.
 
1. Move bottleneck out to C47 (Portage).

Human nature says if you stretch out the line, you'll just get more folks jumping the line. They already cut in everywhere from Ripon to the 27 base leg.

2. New altitudes for slow movers. Cubs,Tri-Pacers-----1300' and =<70 Kts

We already have a safety problem with the 2300 ft bunch dropping into the pattern, blind as King Tut, from above those flying at 1800. They are entirely dependent on tower controllers for separation. You seriously want to add a third altitude? Tell 'em to go WOT or go to the Red Barn, which is a lot of fun, BTW.

3. Use repeater to broadcast ATIS >100 miles

Darn good idea.

4. From Portage, 3 hold points that need monitoring, LAKES--Puckaway,Green,Rush.

The Lake Parker hold at S&F is monitored by the initial approach control point, but it would be a stretch to say it is controlled by them....

5. Put strobes back on railroad tracks. If you can't see them you are in wrong place.

Another darn good idea. If I had not already flown it multiple times, I would have had a hard time being sure about the tracks.

6. No HEAVY METAL till 3 PM Monday---TFR TIME

If by "heavy metal" you mean "aircraft which generate a requirement for wake turbulence separation", I'm with you entirely. Everybody else is just another warbird approach, and it's up to the runway guys to fit them in the stream.

7. NORDO. NOT APPROVED. Borrow radio from your buddy.

Yes, it's probably time.

8. NO FLY OUT ZONE. 181* -------269* (ON NOTAM)

Yes again. Gotta be brain dead to fly outbound toward Ripon.

9. Warbird arrival. Overheads OK 36R BUT you must land on 36R. Switching left and right within 1 mile.

Leave that call to the runway controllers.

10. All ADSB and Transponders off with in 50 miles.

Please God, make it so.

Note the theme here. The Ripon approach has worked fine for a long time. There were not significantly more airplanes than any other year. We had weather packing, so someone in authority insisted on 1 and 2 mile spacing to get calm, orderly runway traffic. It was a dumb move, and it didn't work.

Educate the pilots, make only minor changes to the procedure, and allow the good controllers to do their thing. They love it.
 
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Why are you all suggesting turning ADS-B off? Is that simply so pilots will keep there eyes outside rather than in the cockpit?

It seems to me that ADS-B could be a real asset for ATC.
 
Split Runway?

EAA could obtain an FAA waiver, just for KOSH during AV, to split the two main runways down the center? We did this in USAF, and it doubled the number of takeoff/landing opportunities. i.e. divide each main (wide) runway down the centerline and paint the dots on each side? Planes land on assigned alternating sides of the runway and are committed to not crossing the centerline, clear into the grass/taxiway on their side unless told otherwise by a pink shirt. I know with the incompetence/disregard of NOTAM displayed by some of the pilots this year that this may be a pipe dream, but in my thousands of hours of executing this kind of split runway operations, it was perfectly safe, as long as the mindset is there that you don?t own the whole runway, just your half. Your thoughts?

Another option is for folks to team up beforehand, at an enroute fuel stop, and fly formation to OSH...mini-mass-arrivals, as such. You?d need to fully brief the formation approach and landing ROE of course, and preferably practice the routine beforehand.

Flame away, I?m asbestos.

Woody.
 
Why are you all suggesting turning ADS-B off? Is that simply so pilots will keep there eyes outside rather than in the cockpit?

It seems to me that ADS-B could be a real asset for ATC.
Probably for ATC, maybe some kind of positive release from Green lake based on your ADS-B reports. Could be a way to meter traffic to the maximum flow rate for the runways. Everyone holds at Green lake and every 40 seconds the ATC picks someone at the NE turning point for Green lake and calls for their callsign to proceed to Fisk. Gives you a perfect 1mile train if everyone is flying 90knots. If you need 2 mile you call them at 80 seconds, etc. Easy to spot someone not playing by the rules and gives a better chance of getting the most out of the runways. If you're consistently off-speed (say +/- 3knots) you get sent back to Green lake.

It would also support multiple parallel feeder holds so that the traffic didn't get crazy around the one lake. The timing would be the key so every 80 seconds you call one out of each hold so they arrive at Ripon or some other point 40 seconds apart.

But for the pilot I think it would be far to many aircraft too close for it to be useful.
 
Why are you all suggesting turning ADS-B off? Is that simply so pilots will keep there eyes outside rather than in the cockpit?

It seems to me that ADS-B could be a real asset for ATC.

And it's an asset for the pilot as long as he doesn't just stare at it. I don't understand turning it off either. Just zoom your display in to the 2 mile range if you don't like clutter. Anyone who thinks that they see everything that's out there with their eyes is either Chuck Yeager or deluded. The traffic display is like the back up camera on your car...a great tool but not to be solely relied upon.
 
One more gripe I have for this year - which stems more from my personal experience than any observation os a systemic problem - is that the controllers could do better in calling out aircraft.

When I finally made it out of holding and past Ripon Monday morning, at Fisk I got sent east to 36. I was probably a mile out on base when I heard the first tower instruction directed at "white low wing on the base," which I acknowledged with a rock. Not too long after, there was a similar instruction, this time with a dot assignment. I rocked again.

As I turned final, I was reaallly surprised to see a Bonanza appear about 100' below me, seeming to come in from a longer final. Not sure if he flew a wide base or what. But notably, he was white too. Best guess I have is those instructions I rocked for were directed at him.

In any case, I immediately turned right and broadcast that I was going around. They gave me a quick 270 back to 36R and I was on the ground quickly, no harm, no foul.

But in retrospect, you can hardly get more generic than "white low-wing," when you're talking about common GA aircraft.
 
Why are you all suggesting turning ADS-B off?

Because it's Oshkosh. The air around Airventure will always (hopefully) be full of flying things not graced with a wad of avionics. As such, ATC can't depend on it for separation, nor can the pilots. ADSB separation is only possible in airspace where non-ADSB aircraft are excluded.

Yes, I understand Mark's point. It's the "as long as" part that worries me. After all, there won't be any arrival problems as long as the pilots and controllers all operate at the top of their game, follow published procedures, don't line cut...

Hey, look, I found the first draft of next year's procedures. Just follow these simple instructions to merge into the traffic stream and hold separation. Don't worry, we have ADS-B, and you guys wanted something more controlled, right?

Spacing.JPG




(I'm kidding, but hey, the above is real....non-radar ADS-B merge rules for oceanic flight)
 
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And it's an asset for the pilot as long as he doesn't just stare at it. I don't understand turning it off either. Just zoom your display in to the 2 mile range if you don't like clutter. Anyone who thinks that they see everything that's out there with their eyes is either Chuck Yeager or deluded. The traffic display is like the back up camera on your car...a great tool but not to be solely relied upon.

One more gripe I have for this year - which stems more from my personal experience than any observation os a systemic problem - is that the controllers could do better in calling out aircraft.

When I finally made it out of holding and past Ripon Monday morning, at Fisk I got sent east to 36. I was probably a mile out on base when I heard the first tower instruction directed at "white low wing on the base," which I acknowledged with a rock. Not too long after, there was a similar instruction, this time with a dot assignment. I rocked again.

As I turned final, I was reaallly surprised to see a Bonanza appear about 100' below me, seeming to come in from a longer final. Not sure if he flew a wide base or what. But notably, he was white too. Best guess I have is those instructions I rocked for were directed at him.

In any case, I immediately turned right and broadcast that I was going around. They gave me a quick 270 back to 36R and I was on the ground quickly, no harm, no foul.

But in retrospect, you can hardly get more generic than "white low-wing," when you're talking about common GA aircraft.


This is one of the big advantages I see to ADS-B. There were many pilots either rocking their wings to acknowledge instructions not for them, or not responding to calls that were. This was especially true once in the proximity of the airport and resulted in some very close calls. ADS-B could allow ATC to identify aircraft by N-number which is the way we pilots are accustomed to being identified. Knowing they were talking to me while I was over Fisk was easy. When landing became a little chaotic around the runway, knowing they were talking to me became more difficult.
 
ADS-B could allow ATC to identify aircraft by N-number which is the way we pilots are accustomed to being identified.

Not at the separation distances reported in the holds this weekend. And not unless everyone had ADS-B.

IMO, ADS-B isn't a solution to the Oshkosh capacity issue.

The solution lies in simplicity, not complexity. Simplicity being doing a better job of pushing traffic through a slightly refined version of today's procedures.
 
Because it's Oshkosh. The air around Airventure will always (hopefully) be full of flying things not graced with a wad of avionics. As such, ATC can't depend on it for separation, nor can the pilots. ADSB separation is only possible in airspace where non-ADSB aircraft are excluded.

Yes, I understand Mark's point. It's the "as long as" part that worries me. After all, there won't be any arrival problems as long as the pilots and controllers all operate at the top of their game, follow published procedures, don't line cut...

Thanks, Dan! I agree ADS-B separation only works when it excludes non-ADS-B equipment aircraft. However, I believe just because it isn't the primary means of separation doesn't mean there's no value. ATC is never ultimately responsible for separation when we are in VMC conditions. It's always our responsibility to see and avoid whether flying VFR or IFR while in VMC. I don't want to change Oshkosh either, and there will always be aircraft at Airventure that aren't graced with a wad of avionics, just like there are planes there that don't have radios. I'm not saying ADS-B is the solution, but it is a tool that might be a help.
 
seems like the ultimate bottleneck is how many landings can be done. holding and procedure can be optimized but in the end i think landing capacity of the runways is a finite number and proper holding and procedure will saturate the runways.
if it takes more airspace to hold airplanes for runway capacity you need more airspace. the violators have got to be dealt with.someone mentioned that 2018 was a ''perfect storm''. well, perfect storms are where you find them. wasn't 2016 a ''perfect storm'' ifr stopping so many planes just short osh and then they all left for osh at the same time and an accident closed a runway. our luck is gonna run out on this .
 
Agree with fine of $100 but raise to $125 for no NOTAM.

If you have NOTAM on glare shield when you land. FREE WEEKLY PASS.
Worth $125:rolleyes:
 
ADSB issues
I like the see and avoid within 25 miles of Ripon.
I would not be relying on the BOX.
Now, 2018 there are still a lot of planes that don't have it
And they turned the transponders off at 30 miles.

BUT did they go Christmas Tree ( All working lights on???) IN NOTAM AGAIN
10% maybe. Who is reading it.

2020 and beyond----- I get that

Just my thought.

Boomer
 
Because it's Oshkosh. The air around Airventure will always (hopefully) be full of flying things not graced with a wad of avionics. As such, ATC can't depend on it for separation, nor can the pilots. ADSB separation is only possible in airspace where non-ADSB aircraft are excluded.

Yes, I understand Mark's point. It's the "as long as" part that worries me. After all, there won't be any arrival problems as long as the pilots and controllers all operate at the top of their game, follow published procedures, don't line cut...

Hey, look, I found the first draft of next year's procedures. Just follow these simple instructions to merge into the traffic stream and hold separation. Don't worry, we have ADS-B, and you guys wanted something more controlled, right?

Spacing.JPG




(I'm kidding, but hey, the above is real....non-radar ADS-B merge rules for oceanic flight)


Dan. love it
I vote bottom right.

Boomer
 
Because it's Oshkosh. The air around Airventure will always (hopefully) be full of flying things not graced with a wad of avionics. As such, ATC can't depend on it for separation, nor can the pilots. ADSB separation is only possible in airspace where non-ADSB aircraft are excluded.

Yes, I understand Mark's point. It's the "as long as" part that worries me. After all, there won't be any arrival problems as long as the pilots and controllers all operate at the top of their game, follow published procedures, don't line cut...

The value of adsb here lies not in separation, but in fairly sequencing things so that people CAN'T cut the line. It's a trivial matter to design a system that enters your tail number into a queue as soon as you get within X miles of a checkpoint. If you need to hold, the system will let people out of the hold in the order they arrived.

This would remove the incentive to break the rules, which reduces chaos and theoretically allows for a more orderly and efficient traffic flow. It also dramatically increases accountability for those who DO break the rules.

Yes, there will be plenty of non equipped aircraft for the foreseeable future, but maybe they could have a separate arrival corridor, or specified times of day.

It's simple enough to turn off traffic alerts or display on your EFIS, I don't see a reason to disable the output though.
 
1. RWY 9 Approach--Wautoma Y50 direct --33NM

2. RWY 27 Approach--New Holstein 8D1 direct--19NM


This would give you 2 approaches into KOSH. 9/27 OR 18/36
If you overlay GPS approaches over these routes there are plenty of fixes, but can't make it too complicated. Some can handle but some may not have GPS's.
It would reduce taxi flow.
A lot of people know where they want or need to park.
Most production go to north and antiques,HOMEBUILTS to south as mentioned.
ATC @ Fisk can help when not busy. Most times not.
Pilots would have to avoid Fond Du Lac, Warbird, and Portage-Ripon entry points.

Would still have proposed 3 levels of speed, and bottleneck issues.
 
New Holstein is the longtime Cub fly-in: "New Holstein Super Cub Fly-In is presented by SuperCub.org, all tailwheel aircraft are welcome, and tricycle-gear airplanes are tolerated (they must park on the hard-surface ramp). The camping event begins the Friday before AirVenture and ends the Wednesday of the show; many attendees fly to Oshkosh or make day trips to the show on chartered buses" (AOPA article)


Flightaware vs. ATC vs. Cockpit visibility- where are the display limits of ADS-B written? I have a feeling KOSH sees as high a density as anywhere, might need some actual testing study before posting in a NOTAM procedure. Can ATC drag their official hardware to the site or remote from KOSH?

Anonymous mode also comes to mind.

Does UAT 978 through ground towers vs 1090 come into play?

It looks on screenshots like there is enough to sequence a lineup, but even after 2020 KOSH will not be rule airspace and ADS-B out is only needed for rule airspace. Transponder STBY worked, tech won't cover lack of discipline unless you mandate Monster Truck ahows' remote ignition kill boxes.
 
If I haven't said it already, the EAA needs to do a much better job of communicating mass arrival times. I can't find 'em on EAA's website. I can't find them on the NOTAM, and a Google search doesn't return anything but bits and pieces posted by the individual mass arrival groups. I'm sure the information is out there, but finding it should be easy, not hard.

With that information easily accessible, people could target arrival times to avoid mass arrival related runway closures.
 
If I haven't said it already, the EAA needs to do a much better job of communicating mass arrival times. I can't find 'em on EAA's website. I can't find them on the NOTAM, and a Google search doesn't return anything but bits and pieces posted by the individual mass arrival groups. I'm sure the information is out there, but finding it should be easy, not hard.

With that information easily accessible, people could target arrival times to avoid mass arrival related runway closures.

They did a great job at publishing the intended arrivals times. The problem was when the weather went south was setting expectations when they were going to be rescheduled.

There were hours that the Fisk controllers thought the Bo's were coming and were stopping inbound traffic, when in reality was that they were still sitting on the ground in Found Du Lac. After about an hour of stopping traffic, all **** broke loose when they said "never mind". I know many pilots that were monitoring the frequency via LiveATC on the ground to determine when to take off from a nearby airport.
 
They did a great job at publishing the intended arrivals times.

If they did a great job, a 30 second google search would turn up the schedule or you'd have an easy time of finding the information on EAA's site.

None of the obvious search terms pull up a schedule near the top of a google search, and the information seems to be buried on EAA's site if it is there at all.

Give it a shot -start from scratch and see how difficult it is to find the 2018 schedule. You'll be surprised.
 
If they did a great job, a 30 second google search would turn up the schedule or you'd have an easy time of finding the information on EAA's site.

None of the obvious search terms pull up a schedule near the top of a google search, and the information seems to be buried on EAA's site if it is there at all.

Give it a shot -start from scratch and see how difficult it is to find the 2018 schedule. You'll be surprised.

Agreed. The NOTAM publishes the field closure for the airshow - why not publish runway closures for mass arrivals? AND THEN STICK TO THE **** SCHEDULE instead of jacking everybody around waiting for the arrivals to figure out what they are doing. Missed your mass arrival slot? Go to Ripon and join the rest of the peasants.
 
Agreed. The NOTAM publishes the field closure for the airshow - why not publish runway closures for mass arrivals? AND THEN STICK TO THE **** SCHEDULE instead of jacking everybody around waiting for the arrivals to figure out what they are doing. Missed your mass arrival slot? Go to Ripon and join the rest of the peasants.
I agree, EXCEPT, the part,"Go to Ripon and join the peasants.' But, I agree with his frustration!!!

Yes, this was the perfect storm of prolonged bad weather, hard surface only taxiway usage, mass arrival timing and military flyovers.

ATIS: Please give us two or three more FISK ATIS phone lines. I sat for over an hour dialing and dialing to get the latest ATIS information via telephone. Finally, after getting through the only relevant information I received was the field was open to VFR traffic. That Was All. And, it was 38 minutes old!
Oh My Gosh, UPDATE the Fisk ATIS with pertinent relevant and And AND timely information which will help pilots make departure/arrival decisions! I know, this may require ATC to update the ATIS more than ONLY once an hour! The FAA has preached for years and years that we the pilots need to improve our SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. Tell us, via ATIS, when FISK ATC directed holding is in effect. Tell us if FISK/ATC is deviating from FAA published NOTAM procedures, ie., the often mentioned FAA published NOTAM procedure 1/2 mile separation rule to be deviated by 1 or 2 miles separation. Tell us via ATIS if ATC is now allowing mass arrivals other than FAA published NOTAM times AND which runways are closed to other arrivals. Tell us when only hard surface taxiways are being used. Tell us if FISK ATC is now allowing and directing twin engine aircraft to pass other aircraft along the RR tracks because they can't maintain the 90 knots EVERYONE else is maintaining versus the FAA published NOTAM procedure, "break off the procedure; return to Ripon; and follow another aircraft of similar speed." Okay, that was a little whiny.

Pilots want to know the big picture. LiveATC, radar24, text messages from friends on the field, webcams and partial ADSB information is not a good way to make arrival decisions at the "worlds busiest airport." Receiving relevant and timely ATIS information will improve pilots Situational Awareness hopefully improving their ability to make logical decisions.

Mass Arrivals: Publish something more definitive than, "?These formation arrivals are scheduled for late morning through mid-afternoon on Saturday, July 21, and for early morning on Sunday, July 22."
This is saying you, ATC and EAA, are willing to close two of three arrival/departure runways somewhere around later on in the morning on Saturday the 21st until somewhere around the middle of that afternoon and then again the next day about early on in the morning and going on until, uh, well, uh, sometime. Puhleeeze! I understand, you can land more airplanes in a mass arrival than non-mass arrivals, but, for a whole unspecified day and a half??? NO! Be more specific. Designate Mass Arrivals be scheduled for Saturday the 21st between 1300 and 1600 local. If unable to meet this time allocation, Mass arrivals will only then be accepted between 1000 and 1300 hrs on Tuesday. Mass arrival requests will be submitted to ATC/EAA NLT xx. ATC will reserve specific time slots for each aircraft type, ie., Cessnas 1000-1030, Beechcraft 1045-1115, etc. etc.

Military Flyovers: Only when the airfield is closed for the airshow. I know, we may lose the opportunity of actually seeing a B-52 or B-1 flying over, but, if I'm stuck in a three hour Green Lake hold during a flyover induced field closure then I'm going to miss it anyway.

Bad Weather: I'll talk to the Man.
 
I agree, EXCEPT, the part,"Go to Ripon and join the peasants.' But, I agree with his frustration!!!

Yes, this was the perfect storm of prolonged bad weather, hard surface only taxiway usage, mass arrival timing and military flyovers.

ATIS: Please give us two or three more FISK ATIS phone lines. I sat for over an hour dialing and dialing to get the latest ATIS information via telephone. Finally, after getting through the only relevant information I received was the field was open to VFR traffic. That Was All. And, it was 38 minutes old!
Oh My Gosh, UPDATE the Fisk ATIS with pertinent relevant and And AND timely information which will help pilots make departure/arrival decisions! I know, this may require ATC to update the ATIS more than ONLY once an hour! The FAA has preached for years and years that we the pilots need to improve our SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. Tell us, via ATIS, when FISK ATC directed holding is in effect. Tell us if FISK/ATC is deviating from FAA published NOTAM procedures, ie., the often mentioned FAA published NOTAM procedure 1/2 mile separation rule to be deviated by 1 or 2 miles separation. Tell us via ATIS if ATC is now allowing mass arrivals other than FAA published NOTAM times AND which runways are closed to other arrivals. Tell us when only hard surface taxiways are being used. Tell us if FISK ATC is now allowing and directing twin engine aircraft to pass other aircraft along the RR tracks because they can't maintain the 90 knots EVERYONE else is maintaining versus the FAA published NOTAM procedure, "break off the procedure; return to Ripon; and follow another aircraft of similar speed." Okay, that was a little whiny.

Pilots want to know the big picture. LiveATC, radar24, text messages from friends on the field, webcams and partial ADSB information is not a good way to make arrival decisions at the "worlds busiest airport." Receiving relevant and timely ATIS information will improve pilots Situational Awareness hopefully improving their ability to make logical decisions.

Mass Arrivals: Publish something more definitive than, "?These formation arrivals are scheduled for late morning through mid-afternoon on Saturday, July 21, and for early morning on Sunday, July 22."
This is saying you, ATC and EAA, are willing to close two of three arrival/departure runways somewhere around later on in the morning on Saturday the 21st until somewhere around the middle of that afternoon and then again the next day about early on in the morning and going on until, uh, well, uh, sometime. Puhleeeze! I understand, you can land more airplanes in a mass arrival than non-mass arrivals, but, for a whole unspecified day and a half??? NO! Be more specific. Designate Mass Arrivals be scheduled for Saturday the 21st between 1300 and 1600 local. If unable to meet this time allocation, Mass arrivals will only then be accepted between 1000 and 1300 hrs on Tuesday. Mass arrival requests will be submitted to ATC/EAA NLT xx. ATC will reserve specific time slots for each aircraft type, ie., Cessnas 1000-1030, Beechcraft 1045-1115, etc. etc.

Military Flyovers: Only when the airfield is closed for the airshow. I know, we may lose the opportunity of actually seeing a B-52 or B-1 flying over, but, if I'm stuck in a three hour Green Lake hold during a flyover induced field closure then I'm going to miss it anyway.

Bad Weather: I'll talk to the Man.

Chief Boom ---- Agreed on above

Thoughts on Mass Arrivals

Dr Pepper Arrivals
10-2-4

Friday---Saturday ONLY
30 minute window
1st plane on ground times above

1000
Piper 70 aircraft

1400
Bonanzas 140 aircraft

1600
Cessna 70 aircraft

If you miss your slot.
To Ripon approach.


Boomer
 
Having flown into air Venture dozens of times since 1970 and unsuccessfuly trying to fly in on Sunday afternoon on five passes up the railroad tracks here are my observations and suggestions.

First, I saw a lot of people cutting in, not flying at 90 knots thereby bunching up the traffic behind them, not flying at 1800 feet and not flying over the railroad tracks. The lack of attention to these few details created a dangerous situation in my view.

Second, with the large numbers of traffic I think the NOTAM should have all aircraft getting in line at the southwest corner of Green Lake. To facilitate an organized line into Ripon, there should be a series of directional strobes facing up the course to the west to create a definitive line to follow to Ripon. I think too many people are using their GPS navigators to get to Ripon from various directions and not looking for the traffic they should be taking their sequence on. The strobe lights would allow the pilots to have their eyes outside looking for traffic and establish a definitive line into Ripon.

Third, to deal with the people, who haven't read the NOTAM or are unable to fly at the proper speed and altitude with the proper separation, there should be a controller at Ripon to turn those aircraft that are not following the NOTAM back to the north side of Green Lake to get in line and try again to get it right.

Fourth, there should be an alternative arrival for the slow vintage aircraft, that can only fly at 90 knots in a dive. That might entail an arrival into 36R or a parallel arrival. Any airplane on the arrival during a busy time not doing 90 knots is going to back things up and cause the following aircraft to loose their separation.

Fifth, I agree with another post that mass arrivals should probably use 27 allowing the use of 36L and 36R for the Fisk arrivals.

I agree with another post that said if everyone just follows the NOTAM and fly their aircraft with some level of precision, things will work just fine.



Frank Huber

My RV-7A, N357FD received an airworthiness certificate yesterday!
Test flying begins next week.
 
ATIS: Please give us two or three more FISK ATIS phone lines. I sat for over an hour dialing and dialing to get the latest ATIS information via telephone.

Perhaps the LiveATC crew would be willing to add a channel for a simulcast of the arrival ATIS to provide an alternate means of access preflight.
 
Another thumbs up on more ATIS access. Perhaps a text website with current ATIS transcription would best be able to handle the high ping rate.
 
Interesting perspective

I think I have an interesting perspective on the events on Saturday and Sunday. I fly the Bell 47's during AV. On Sat we have training and Sunday we start flying passengers, so I get to hear hours of the fur ball arrivals.

The arrival system usually works fine. However, this year the weather was bad for a lot of Friday, Saturday and Sunday morning. This was the real issue.

Here are some thoughts on possible changes.

1) ELIMINATE ALL MASS ARRIVALS ON SATURDAY AND SUNDAY. The mass arrival of Bonanza's on Sunday completely jacked up the arrivals sending a couple of hundred planes to alternate destinations. Couple that with a landing accident on 09 twenty minutes before schedule closure and it was a tough Sunday. Even heard on the radio by a pilot trying to get in but was kept away by the Bonanza's, "F'n Bonanza's, and I own one."

2. Open arrivals at 0600 on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. (Don't hate me Jeff)

3. Keep arrivals open till 2100 on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. (Don't hate me more Jeff)

4. Reduce the airshow time as mentioned. Seems to get longer every year.

5. Make the event Sunday through Saturday. I know the vendors would love this. Sunday, most of the airplanes are gone and the vendor areas are empty. Great time to do business with them though. Most are there on the first Sunday anyway. This would allow vendors to leave Sunday morning and get back to regular business on Monday. Make the Saturday night airshow the end of the event.

6. The FAA needs to have a team of people (3 pairs would work), to follow up on people who F up the arrival. Ramp check them and write them up if egregious. I think it was Sunday a V tailed Bonanza flew right over Pioneer in a nose up attitude, gear down, ready to fall out of the sky. I would have bet a paycheck the plane was going to crash. The plane continued at about 500' south bound over the ultralight area to who knows where. This guy needed to be talked to. I could go on on people who should have been talked to. I think word would get around!!

By the Grace of God there were no midairs. How? I've got no clue. There needs be some improvement. Averting disaster is getting tougher. "If it is predictable, it is preventable."
 
Re: more ATIS or current conditions updates...:

I have found LiveATC to be very valuable in determining the current situation at Osh this year and in a the past. Sitting on the ground at a satellite airport with cell coverage I was able to get the ATIS and listen to the Fisk and tower controllers to know the most up to date info possible.

Helped me get out of Portage and into Osh after the field went VFR on Saturday afternoon about 16:45.

Listening to all three gives you a real picture of what is going on.
 
Re: more ATIS or current conditions updates...:

I have found LiveATC to be very valuable in determining the current situation at Osh this year and in a the past. Sitting on the ground at a satellite airport with cell coverage I was able to get the ATIS and listen to the Fisk and tower controllers to know the most up to date info possible.

Helped me get out of Portage and into Osh after the field went VFR on Saturday afternoon about 16:45.

Listening to all three gives you a real picture of what is going on.

Exactly the same for us the last few years. LiveATC in an earbud while sitting elsewhere, timing our pounce before the rest of the crowd wherever we're parked (FLD), has worked well so far. Rumors are rampant at area staging locations as to the status of the field. Listening to Fisk allow someone past is priceless.
 
8 August Airventure Survey

Found a SurveyMonkey Airventure survey in my email dated 8 Aug. 20 minutes of likes/dislike rating and notations.

Might be worth your time. Covered everything but ATC directly, but you can expound in a few sections.
 
November 15 update

November 15, 2018 - A number of significant changes to the EAA AirVenture Oshkosh arrival procedures are being recommended by EAA to the FAA to create better staging and safety margins for incoming aircraft to Oshkosh. These recommendations are based on the annual review of air traffic operations and from feedback by pilots using the 2018 procedures.

?The weather situation on the weekend prior to AirVenture?s opening day last year revealed several areas where air traffic procedures could be improved,? said Sean Elliott, EAA?s vice president of advocacy and safety. ?We included pilot feedback in the working group review we created this fall, with the group?s recommendations going to the FAA this month as the agency has final determination on air traffic procedures for AirVenture.?

The review working group included those with expertise in GA safety, homebuilt aircraft safety, air traffic control, and mass arrival processes. The group contained many members of EAA?s Safety Committee and various councils. It met weekly over the past several months to review current operations and opportunities for improvement.

The draft recommendations, which were briefed to EAA?s board of directors last week, encompass three areas to be addressed: procedure changes recommended to FAA, process improvements and education by EAA to pilots, and EAA and FAA working together to find innovative air traffic control methods for AirVenture.

?In 2018, weather systems during the three days prior to AirVenture?s opening day kept many pilots from making their final inbound flights to Oshkosh until the weather cleared on Sunday afternoon, July 22,? Elliott noted. ?That brought a huge wave of inbound flights to Oshkosh in a short six-hour period that afternoon. While the controllers and ground personnel did yeomen?s work to park 3,000 aircraft within a six-hour period, there are ways to do it better.

?Added to that, water-saturated ground areas at Oshkosh after landing made arrivals more complex, as did mass arrival groups and a large number of aircraft that had extended holds. All of those factors were considered in the draft recommendations to FAA.?

Among the recommendations are:

Arrival Procedures (FAA Operations)

Creating a new arrival gate (VFR waypoint, GPS and visually identified) that is further out (see attached diagram) than Fisk in order to facilitate consistent spacing prior to arrival at Fisk.
A new depicted (GPS defined waypoints) VFR Fisk arrival overlay that is for marginal VFR weather (1,000- to 1,500-foot ceilings) operations. Aircraft that will be allowed to use this procedure must be ADS-B Out equipped.
A raised minimum ceiling for all other aircraft operations on the Fisk arrival to 1,500 feet AGL.
A procedure to address temporary airport closures and provide a ?bail out? track that enables an orderly transition from the final inbound leg to KOSH to KFLD. Aircraft arriving KFLD along the defined route will either land at KFLD or be directed back to the initial for KOSH depending on airport closure status.
?The FAA should create a revised policy for mass arrivals that restricts the arrival day/time to the planned time only with limited ability to shift due to weather. If the arrival slot is unsuitable due to weather at the designated time (mass arrival group is airborne) of the slot, then the mass arrival group should split up and arrive via the normal NOTAM procedure.
EAA Process Improvements

Expand aircraft parking to the south and improve parking management strategies to maximize use of the space. By 2020, EAA will achieve a ?no aircraft turned away? condition for general aviation camping parking, weather and ground water saturation concurring, and explore means (e.g., a potential reservation system or other incentives) to shift arrivals to days with lower volume.
An extensive educational campaign to highlight arrival informational tools, weather planning and preparedness, and best practices during arrival operations. Distribution will include a potential online training course (with incentives), Chapter Video Magazine, online webinars, EAA magazines, EFBs like ForeFlight, and other web resources. Member incentives for participation in training/education will be developed.
A text messaging arrival update tool for ATC that will be available to attendees.
Work with the FAA to create an overhead break protocol that enables ATC to determine if overhead operations can be authorized at any given time.
Encourage military aircraft to favor arrivals during air show waivered airspace times.
Joint FAA/EAA Actions

Progressively integrate new technologies (GPS, ADS-B, TIS-B, etc.) into the AirVenture arrival procedures and aircraft identification as a multi-year, phased initiative to enhance safety and increase capacity.
Education and incentive opportunities that may earn portions of WINGS credits.
?The input of pilots who flew the Oshkosh arrival in 2018 played a major role in these recommendations,? Elliott said. ?We personally contacted nearly all of the pilots who sent input directly to us to better understand what they experienced and where the procedure could be improved.?

The recommendations will be forwarded to FAA officials for review by the end of November. Approved recommendations will be included in the AirVenture 2019 NOTAM. Additional input can be made through November 27 at [email protected] (please include your name and EAA member number with your communications).
 
?The input of pilots who flew the Oshkosh arrival in 2018 played a major role in these recommendations,? Elliott said. ?We personally contacted nearly all of the pilots who sent input directly to us to better understand what they experienced and where the procedure could be improved.?

That's funny - they certainly didn't contact me, and I was one of those that sent input. I guess they believe they already know what I think.
 
That's funny - they certainly didn't contact me, and I was one of those that sent input. I guess they believe they already know what I think.

They did contact me, and I responded with my thoughts on a couple of their proposed changes.

I don't think a longer arrival queue is a good idea. It just means more time trying to fly in pseudo formation with people who can't follow a railroad track at a fixed speed and altitude. I don't see how that change is going to help.

Also, the mandate of ADSB during marginal VFR could be a really bad idea unless they can tell me why that would be useful. I don't want people in the conga line looking at a screen crowded with little airplane dots.
 
UAT vs 1090ES

"new depicted (GPS defined waypoints) VFR Fisk arrival overlay that is for marginal VFR weather (1,000- to 1,500-foot ceilings) operations. Aircraft that will be allowed to use this procedure must be ADS-B Out equipped."

Is this going to be 1090 only or are the TIS-B/978/UATs going to ghost around in this? Do ground tower and ATC radar coverage support this? I imagine they DO, and post just to point out this may show the limits of UAT vs 1090ES.
 
What they need is a better way to sequence airplanes prior to Ripon/Fisk to get the trailing distance that they need, rather than just tell us to circle Green or Rush Lake (endlessly it seemed last year).
Moving the problem back farther doesn't really address this issue. Having a "bail out" track to KFLD and back is just going to stack more airplanes together on the same tracks. Why not have multiple bail out and re-entry destinations that would keep things spread out more?

Moving the Fisk Arrival to 1500 AGL? I don't think this does anything productive, except make the pilots have to descend further as they approach Oshkosh (higher pilot workload).

The changes to mass arrivals I can agree with, and also the need for more airplane parking. The education efforts are important, since it just takes one idiot to mess up the flow. I've attended the KOSH arrival webinars every year I've attended and it is great information to know before you go. Additional ATIS type broadcasts further from KOSH about parking and temporary runway closures would free up some bandwidth on the Fisk arrival frequency.

No reservation system? It works for Disneyland (Fastpass type system). It could even be voluntary. Maybe have a block of distinct squawk codes? What about having the airport be open earlier and later during the peak days for arrivals?

I just might sit out next year and see how it goes before I risk trying to attend again. Of course, me doing this will guarantee perfect arrival weather!
 
"new depicted (GPS defined waypoints) VFR Fisk arrival overlay that is for marginal VFR weather (1,000- to 1,500-foot ceilings) operations. Aircraft that will be allowed to use this procedure must be ADS-B Out equipped."

Is this going to be 1090 only or are the TIS-B/978/UATs going to ghost around in this? Do ground tower and ATC radar coverage support this? I imagine they DO, and post just to point out this may show the limits of UAT vs 1090ES.

It shouldn?t make a difference. The ADSB transmitter is at the airport. Everyone should be line of sight at pattern altitude. Obviously there will be some latency for some to see aircraft on the opposite frequency than their receiver. But there is also receivers that can receive both frequencies.

Radar doesn?t matter since this is for VFR flight only. Plus the approach controllers are going to be busy with IFR flights.

ADSB is so that pilots can self separate. With that said, I would highly recommend a passenger look at ADSB. In marginal conditions, I imagine workload saturation will be problematic for a single pilot without passengers.
 
Among the recommendations are:

Arrival Procedures (FAA Operations)

Creating a new arrival gate (VFR waypoint, GPS and visually identified) that is further out (see attached diagram) than Fisk in order to facilitate consistent spacing prior to arrival at Fisk.

In other words, an initial assembly point further out than Ripon, the current initial. The predictable result will be even more pilots cutting into the line between the initial point and Fisk. Worse will be the "traffic jam ripple" effect, which worsens as the line gets longer: https://youtu.be/Suugn-p5C1M

A new depicted (GPS defined waypoints) VFR Fisk arrival overlay that is for marginal VFR weather (1,000- to 1,500-foot ceilings) operations. Aircraft that will be allowed to use this procedure must be ADS-B Out equipped.
A raised minimum ceiling for all other aircraft operations on the Fisk arrival to 1,500 feet AGL.

Great fix...reduce the number of possible arrivals when the weather gets low.

Like it or not, a lot of folks fly comfortable arrivals in good visibility under a low ceiling, every year. It was true most recently on Saturday afternoon. Those arrivals did not contribute to Sunday's mess.

A procedure to address temporary airport closures and provide a ?bail out? track that enables an orderly transition from the final inbound leg to KOSH to KFLD. Aircraft arriving KFLD along the defined route will either land at KFLD or be directed back to the initial for KOSH depending on airport closure status.

Oh boy, I can't wait to hear the stories next year.

?The FAA should create a revised policy for mass arrivals that restricts the arrival day/time to the planned time only with limited ability to shift due to weather. If the arrival slot is unsuitable due to weather at the designated time (mass arrival group is airborne) of the slot, then the mass arrival group should split up and arrive via the normal NOTAM procedure.
EAA Process Improvements

The FAA should simply ban mass arrivals on peak arrival days, or move them to a time when the field is otherwise closed to traffic (open the airshow, for example). Type owners who don't want to participate at the designated time will simply join the regular arrivals anyway.

An extensive educational campaign to highlight arrival informational tools, weather planning and preparedness, and best practices during arrival operations.

An extensive education campaign focused on aircraft control would probably be more useful. A lot of the problem starts with pilots who can't fly an airspeed and altitude, or land on a particular spot.

Progressively integrate new technologies (GPS, ADS-B, TIS-B, etc.) into the AirVenture arrival procedures and aircraft identification as a multi-year, phased initiative to enhance safety and increase capacity.

Aircraft identification? Welcome to ADSB. This may be one area where a bit if enforcement would be welcome. I'd love to see a few of the "cut into the line" crowd get ticketed.
 
Fellow pilots, we spent A LOT of time on this. Lots of calls and lots of face-time. While you may have not been contacted, the letters you submitted with ideas, and ideas posted on forums were considered in the development of the proposal.

A couple of thoughts to your comments since yesterday....

Moving the starting point further up does in fact decrease the likelyhood that we will have to use the holding patterns. What all of us saw last year was down right dangerous. Between the EAA texting service that is going to be put in place, along with ATIS broadcasts by airports within 100 and 150 miles of OSH, we expect that pilots will be given the information they need to make a decision PRIOR to arriving at the starting point. That should equate to less chance of needing the holds.

Once you are in the arrival to OSH from Waupon, if the field is closed for any reason you will be diverted to Fond du lac in a conga line. Then, when the field opens up, those at Fond Du Lac will be sent back to OSH FIRST, prior to opeingin up the arrivals. You won't have to worry about losing a space in line and having no where to park. Your place in line stays.

BTW, lots of new parking will be opening up this coming year, and even more next year. Jack's goal is that NO airplane will be turned away for parking EVER again after next year.

As for the ADSB, please be open-minded. Put yourself in a controller's shoes for a minute and think about how hard it is to identify some of our airplanes just using a type-callout under the worst possible conditions--- low-light, rain/mist, etc. A red Mustang II sure looks a lot like a black RV. I personally have seen aircraft responding to calls intended for a different aircraft at OSH while in the pattern due to these conditions, and it was lucky no one got hurt. ADSB is going to help when we need it the most--- being able to SPECIFICALLY call us out by N-number. A huge safety increase.

No one believes or even thinks these new procedures are set in stone. It may take a few years before we even have the same weather conditions as last year to prove this out. WE know we will make changes. The last procedure served us for almost 40 years. Be patient. But please understand that the leadership at EAA did in fact listen to the membership.

A word to the wise though-- do watch for this new NOTAM and all of the new educational and promotional materials that are going to be put out to educate all of us. Don't think you can just show up at OSH next year without having read the NOTAM, as some have been prone to do in the past. Study it and understand it.

BTW, we did in fact have FAA participation in the creation of this. You may not know this, but this NOTAM belongs to the FAA, not the EAA, so we are very much in an advisory role. Although from my participation in the meetings I will tell you that it is a very strong partnership with absolutely no pushback. Everyone is focused on safety and wants no repeat of last year.

Everyone has an obligation to safety. Let's make sure we all do our part. That includes losing the bad attitude from some pilots we all witnessed last year.

Vic
 
My only suggestion, do whatever it takes (pay them bonuses) to get the Osh experienced controllers back, IMO much of the havoc last year was due to the controllers at Fisk/tower.
 
Moving the starting point further up does in fact decrease the likelyhood that we will have to use the holding patterns. What all of us saw last year was down right dangerous. Between the EAA texting service that is going to be put in place, along with ATIS broadcasts by airports within 100 and 150 miles of OSH, we expect that pilots will be given the information they need to make a decision PRIOR to arriving at the starting point. That should equate to less chance of needing the holds.

Vic - with all due respect - the above is NOT what was causing the saturation (oversaturation - we had three separate altitude rings at one point around Green Lake - I know because I was in one of them) of the holding patterns.

Once you are in the arrival to OSH from Waupon, if the field is closed for any reason you will be diverted to Fond du lac in a conga line. Then, when the field opens up, those at Fond Du Lac will be sent back to OSH FIRST, prior to opeingin up the arrivals. You won't have to worry about losing a space in line and having no where to park. Your place in line stays.

This is what caused it.

Total furball with planning of the mass arrivals and military flyovers causing unpredictable and unnecessary closures of the field at precisely the wrong time. Why are the military aircraft doing flyovers of the field? Answer - to show off for the crowd - but the crowd is not at the field yet, they are circling over Green Lake cussing like sailors at the military pilot doing a flyover and closing the field!

Longer arrival routes will NOT help. ADSB for the controllers to call out N-numbers certainly will. But what really needs to happen is to maximize efficient use of the runways available. That means not allowing the military flyovers and mass arrivals to commandeer the airspace the way we saw last year. Keep the runways full of airplanes, and the problem goes away.
 
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KOSH

Sorry to be the first to say it but this new directive sure misses the mark for fixing the problem!I think its impossible to fix a problem if you cant force yourself to see what the problem really is .And its pretty apparent that the FAA doesn't think there part of the problem.One of the biggest problems last year on Sunday was holding everything up and shutting down the flow by just people who said low fuel tail wheel problem and one plane that said sick passangers.It should say loud and clear in the NOTAM if you have a problem fix the problem before getting in line at Ripon no and if and butts there are many airports around Kosh for this, which lead to FAA controllers telling everyone to go back to Ripon and this is the most dangerous part of arrival.The other part not addressed is how to get more airplanes on the ground in shortest time just like a four lane road two runways and two points of arrivals would do wonders.

Bob
 
Sorry to be the first to say it but this new directive sure misses the mark for fixing the problem!I think its impossible to fix a problem if you cant force yourself to see what the problem really is .And its pretty apparent that the FAA doesn't think there part of the problem.One of the biggest problems last year on Sunday was holding everything up and shutting down the flow by just people who said low fuel tail wheel problem and one plane that said sick passangers.It should say loud and clear in the NOTAM if you have a problem fix the problem before getting in line at Ripon no and if and butts there are many airports around Kosh for this, which lead to FAA controllers telling everyone to go back to Ripon and this is the most dangerous part of arrival.The other part not addressed is how to get more airplanes on the ground in shortest time just like a four lane road two runways and two points of arrivals would do wonders.

Bob

The only reason folks were claiming these "emergencies" is because that was the only way to get in, many had been holding for hours (myself included).
Fisk/tower were not letting anyone in to land plain and simple so at some point people get tired and frustrated at the nonsense.
 
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