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Flap Control Systems

AviatorJ

Well Known Member
This weekend finished the tailcone, anticipating about 30 or so more hours to get everything mounted and maybe replace a few rivets here and there. The QB Wings and Fuselage are still about 3 months out so this gives me some time to really focus on updating my project plan and putting the pen to the paper on some of the systems I plan to use.

The only flap systems I've used previously are either the up/down toggle switch of an older 172 or the preselect switch where you can put in various degrees of flaps.

What I would like to do in the 10 is have a system that has these preselects, doesn't allow flaps to extend at certain speeds and has a visual representation either on a Glass panel or with lights. I would like a stick with an up/down toggle and an additional up/down toggle on the panel to move to the preset positions (Not have to hold it down and look out the window to guess the degrees).

Can this be accomplished with using a Vertical Power-X and a G3X setup and sometype of Flap Switch (Aerosport or otherwise). I know Vans has their flap positioning system but that seems completely independent and more like what I have in my 172.
 
This flap positioning system from Van's is a nice unit and recommended. To lock it out at speed you can use a simple speed switch running off your pitot, or a "flap permissive" switch on the panel. Either switch would open/shut the flap positioning system common ground wire connection to ground.

I have a "Pilot/Co-Pilot" selector switch on my pane to select who controls the stick flap and trim controls. This switch again opens/shuts the trim and flap common ground connections to ground (DPDT on-none-on locking toggle switch). This prevents the non-pilot passenger in the co-pilot seat from messing up the flaps or trim, and provides means to have a back up trip and flap control if the pilot controls break for any reason. Both pilot and co-pilot sticks use the Infinity Stick Grip.

Carl
 
Think carefully about the law of unintended consequences. If you need to do a go around from a full flaps approach, will your over-speed system prevent flap retraction if you accelerate quickly?
 
Think carefully about the law of unintended consequences. If you need to do a go around from a full flaps approach, will your over-speed system prevent flap retraction if you accelerate quickly?

Wouldn't think you would put any limiting factor in retracting flaps, just extending them.
 
Flap Position Selector

If I'm not mistaken, all of the current flap positioning systems use a "push to select" position. That is, press down once to go to the next down position or press and hold to continue to full down (also with a press once for full up). These systems work well.

What I have been developing (for my own use) is a system much like the Cessna design, that allows position preselect (take-off, cruise, approach, landing). It incorporates indicator lamps (different color for each position) that flash while traveling and steady when the flap position is reached. It uses a rotary switch for position selection but could be adapted to step positioning like the Cessna. My AFS glass panel display has an independent flap position indication.

I looked at using a different flap motor that had position indication built-in but rejected that because of potential reliability issues. Vans has a proven motor and motor/indicator would require me to be the test environment, among other challenges. The software for the Arduino motor controller is more involved than I originally imaged and I'm having it developed by a third party far more experienced in this than I am.

So, a rotary selection switch rather than a toggle switch with LED position indication, using Van's flap motor and POS-12 for position. If others are interested, I will be glad to provide code, hardware specs and schematics when the project is complete.
 
Vans flap control system

I am using the Vans flap control system. I installed the toggle switch just left of my push/pull throttle control. I can easily operate the switch without removing my hand from the throttle.

It has proven to be reliable and easy to use. I am not sure why you need a complex system with air speed limits. The 10 lands easily with or without flaps extended. In a go around The engine has enough power to get you a positive rate of climb even with 2 or 3 people in the plane.
 
amendment to previous post

the last sentence should have said that you can get a positive rate of climb with 2 or 3 people in the plane AND the flaps fully extended
 
I've used the FPS and didn't like it. A little problematic getting it adjusted and the stops aren't exactly where you want them. Also you have to hold down almost as long to trigger the increments as the movement itself takes. If you trigger too quick they don't activate. The ten flaps are fast enough that you don't have to hang on the lever. So, just more problems than solutions. Might as well count them and stop where you want.
 
I used the ShowPlanes FPS and like it a lot. I have a bank of 4 micro switches mounted next to the flap torque tube under the rear seat torque tube cover. Then I have strategically located bumps (rivet heads) mounted on the torque tube to close the micro switch which corresponds with the flaps position. These switches are wired to 4 different colored LED lights I have mounted and labeled next to the flap switch. Sure I have to hold the flap switch lever down for about 1/2 a second for the flap to move down to its next position but I really like it.
 
Hi Nick,

I just finished my design that is very similar to what you proposed except my setup uses 4 separate LED lighted pushbutton switches.

It's a row of 4 12mm lighted momentary pushbuttons labeled 0°, 10°, 20° and 30°. Zero is a green LED and the positions are amber.

All my positions are user programmable to be whatever I need them to be for my plane. These are not "timed" position but absolute positions in degrees of flap that you can program. It takes less than 1 minute to set all 3 positions that I need and you can change them anytime you want.

I can have as few as 1 preset position or as many as 5. Not sure you'd ever need this many.

Flaps up shows a green LED. Press any button or degree of flap and the actuator starts moving to that position, If you pressed 20° the LED for that position starts blinking and when they reach 20° the LED stays on solid. Press flaps up and the green LED starts blinking and they return to the up position and the green LED stays on solid.

With this setup there's no guessing where the flaps are, trying to read the small LED bar indicator or looking out over your shoulder to see where they are. Similar to yours. I can quickly glance at the flap buttons are know right where they are by which LED is on solid.

I designed this around an actuator with the feedback built in as I think they are better than the Van's actuator with the external POS-12. It has a Bourns pot which is highly accurate and there's no external linkage or POS-12 to set up. The internal pot will feed your EFIS position indicator as well if you want to use that for a display as well.

What is the actual stroke of the Van's flap motor? I dont have one of those.

My setup will work with any actuator and feedback position sensor with a 1K, 5K or 10K pot. If you choose to use the Van's actuator and the POS-12 you can. Any 12v actuator will work.

You can even keep the manual toggle switch if you want to override the user programmable settings at any time.

Mine is setup using a manually resettable circuit breaker in the event of a malfunction.

I'll post some pics when I get the buttons and labels setup.

I'd like to see your version as well. They sound similar other than the actual switches to move positions.

Thanks,
Shawn
 
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The VP-X is the best system I have seen for doing what the OP wants to do. I don't remember if you can triple-click flaps down for full flaps or if you have to wait. I know that the VP-200 allowed multiple clicks to select a position and it would run until it gets to that point. I also really like the FPS that Van's sells. It is easy to install and works great.
 
I agree with Jesse. I have a VP-200, and it works as advertised. I've also used the standard Vans positioning system, and it works fine, as well. I'm sure the VPX would work for you.

John
 
i did not get that vans flap position system because I had read a few places that the vpx was incompatible with it. Which is the system I intend to go with.
 
i did not get that vans flap position system because I had read a few places that the vpx was incompatible with it. Which is the system I intend to go with.

The Van's Flap Positioning System http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1483378385-410-162&browse=electrical&product=fps
is a stand alone unit. All you need is a toggle switch (panel or stick) to make it work. I put this in the RV-10, back fitted in the RV-8A and installed in a new construction RV-14. Interface with VPX (or anything else) is not required or desired.

The Van's Flap Position Sensor http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/sto...&browse=airframe&product=14_flap_position_kit
is a simple potentiometer that feeds whatever indication you want. I installed this in an RV-14 and the Dynon SkyView has a pretty flap indicator that gets displayed.

For me I have little use for the position sensor. The Flap Positioning System however is a very nice unit - and is recommended.

Carl
 
i did not get that vans flap position system because I had read a few places that the vpx was incompatible with it. Which is the system I intend to go with.

Actually, the VP-200 controls the flap Motor, not the flap positioning system. So I should clarify. The VP-200 runs, and powers the flap motor. You can set the stop points anywhere you want, at any angle. The VP display shows the flap positions. You only need the flap motor and a position sender.
The Van's flap positioning system uses an analog position device, that also works very well. The decision is whether you want to use a Vertical Power system, or not.
It sounds like you've decided on the VPX, and I assume that it works the same as the VP-200. Actually, you could simply install Vans system with a flap switch. The VPX would not even know about flaps. Assuming that it doesn't power the flaps - just get the power from someplace else.
John
 
The VP-X is the best system I have seen for doing what the OP wants to do. I don't remember if you can triple-click flaps down for full flaps or if you have to wait. I know that the VP-200 allowed multiple clicks to select a position and it would run until it gets to that point. I also really like the FPS that Van's sells. It is easy to install and works great.

The VPX has multiple stops on the way down, but a single press to raise the flaps to the 0 degree setting.
 
The VPX has multiple stops on the way down, but a single press to raise the flaps to the 0 degree setting.

What I was referring to is the VP-200 feature that you can click the flap switch down 2 times in quick succession to go to the second notch, or 3 times to go to the third notch without needing to wait for it to get to one notch before hitting the switch to go to the next. I don't remember if the VP-X has this feature or not. I really do like that feature, though. Nothing else that I am aware of has this feature.
 
The Van's Flap Positioning System http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1483378385-410-162&browse=electrical&product=fps
is a stand alone unit. All you need is a toggle switch (panel or stick) to make it work. I put this in the RV-10, back fitted in the RV-8A and installed in a new construction RV-14. Interface with VPX (or anything else) is not required or desired.

The Van's Flap Position Sensor http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/sto...&browse=airframe&product=14_flap_position_kit
is a simple potentiometer that feeds whatever indication you want. I installed this in an RV-14 and the Dynon SkyView has a pretty flap indicator that gets displayed.

For me I have little use for the position sensor. The Flap Positioning System however is a very nice unit - and is recommended.

Carl

honestly its been so long since I made the decision, i cant even remember the specific details behind it. I just recently started working on my -10 again. i may just end up ordering these sensors anyways.
 
What I would like to do in the 10 is have a system that has these preselects, doesn't allow flaps to extend at certain speeds and has a visual representation either on a Glass panel or with lights. I would like a stick with an up/down toggle and an additional up/down toggle on the panel to move to the preset positions (Not have to hold it down and look out the window to guess the degrees).

Can this be accomplished with using a Vertical Power-X and a G3X setup and sometype of Flap Switch (Aerosport or otherwise). I know Vans has their flap positioning system but that seems completely independent and more like what I have in my 172.

Yes. The way you described it is exactly how it works in my plane with a G3X Touch, VP-X and standard flap switch.

You just click the flap switch down, and it goes down one notch of flaps. Click it down again, and it goes down to the next preselected stop. Click up, it goes up to 0 degrees.

It has overspeed protection, as well as overspeed warning (like when you're climbing out too fast, and haven't pulled the flaps up.)

The only thing you need to add to the plane for this system to work is a POS12 position encoder that will be mounted somewhere to tell the VPX where the flaps currently are.

The flap position and overspeed warnings are displayed on the G3X PFD.

All these features are described in the VPX Install Manual, starting on page 56 (Rev A)
 
To clarify an earlier question, the VP-X flap overspeed system prevents the flaps from extending if you are above a specified speed. The flaps will retract at any speed.
 
Advanced Flight

In case you are going with AFS avionics and the Quick Panel Advanced Control Module, flap-control/positioning functionality is built-in. A plan-ahead phone call to Rob Hickman prevented me from purchasing a used independent flap controller I won't be needing. YMWV depending on your EFIS vendor choice.
 
My homegrown version also has an input for overspeed. If you are above Vfe they wont go down anymore but they can always be retracted. It can use the standard airspeed switch from Spruce or TCW made by MPL. I have older Dynon displays and without all the new fancy VPX stuff so I needed an alternative. Couldn't find one I liked so I just built one.

Shawn
 
I just moved from Tampa to Clearwater and will be posting a video of how my digital flap controller with user presets works very soon. I'm wiring up the switch bank for my demo.

Shawn
 
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