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Equipping an RV-12 for light IFR

Bill_H

Well Known Member
So - given a Skyview-equipped RV12 (with lights and autopilot) what needs to be added for light IFR?

Is the need:
VOR
Localizer
Glideslope
Marker Beacon (?)
WAAS GPS

Obviously a used Garmin 430 with additional nav and com antenna would do it. Any cheaper alternatives?

Heating the standard pitot is, I assume, impossible. If a heated pitot is desired, a wing pitot would be needed and that would be a real stress on the power budget.

It's been a decade since I flew IFR. So, am I missing anything or mentioning anything that is obsolete?
 
Well, for "light" ifr-whatever that is- if you got a Garmin 400w you could delete everything else on your list. But I suggest you read the current thread, "Do I still need an independent backup AI (for ifr)?".
 
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A heated pitot is in the FARs for IFR, so you must put one on. This is a serious challenge with a 912 alternator. A heated pitot is 10A, or 1/2 the alternator output.

Besides that, if you have SkyView, all you need is a approved navigational source. VOR works, a C145 GPS works. It comes down to what kind of approaches you want to do.
 
I don't think so...

A heated pitot is in the FARs for IFR, so you must put one on.
o.

Please state what FAR. It may be wise to have one, but it isn't in 91.205. Likewise 91.205 doesn't require backups, alternate/backup power, etc. But it might be a good idea.
 
For basic IFR, it is my understanding that you could replace the SL-40 with an SL-30. Your primary navigational/approach capability would be VOR/LOC/ILS using the SL-30 with SV's non-IFR-approved GPS as "advisory". Of course you could spend more and get an IFR-approved GPS such as the Garmin 430W, etc and then be IFR/GPS capable.
 
I found a relatively inexpensive VOR/GS/MKR BCN by VAL electronics at Aircraft Spruce. It was about $1600 plus antennas and signal splitter. Not cheap but a deal compared to other units that sell OBS and receiver separately. With that and a current IFR pitot static check I should be legal for IFR.

The POH prohibits flight into IMC, but my Operating Limits permit it if equipped, and my discussions with my DAR confirmed my interpretation. However, my intent is not to fly IMC, but merely to be legal to file IFR into congested areas like SOCAL. Being in the system greatly simplifies flying in the LA basin.
 
Please state what FAR. It may be wise to have one, but it isn't in 91.205. Likewise 91.205 doesn't require backups, alternate/backup power, etc. But it might be a good idea.

The only time I heard about the requirement for heated Pitot was from a guy that wanted to sell it to me. Same myth about static wicks.
 
I had a conversation with a Dynon Dev at OSH in 2013 and they said all that's needed for IFR is a WAAS certified GPS to drive the Skyview. Also, I think the Rotax is NOT certified for IFR but comments in this forum seem to lean towards making any mode and calling it experimental.
 
IMC Prohibited per POH posted 2/9/15

I was just reviewing the latest RV-12 document updates and noticed that a new POH was posted 2/9/15 that applies to SLSA & ELSA aircraft.

On the Revisions page, it lists adding the wording "Flight into IMC Prohibited" in 2 places in the POH. So unless you're going E-AB, you can fly IFR as long as you don't fly into IMC conditions. So if by Light IFR you mean IFR in VMC conditions, you're OK.
 
I had a conversation with a Dynon Dev at OSH in 2013 and they said all that's needed for IFR is a WAAS certified GPS to drive the Skyview.

Just to be clear, we mean an IFR navigator, not just a GPS position source. You need something like an Avidyne 540 or Garmin GTN/GNS.
 
Interesting. The Van's Pilot Operating Handbook applies to the ELSA supplied in the kit. If I then modify my ELSA I am entitled, even required (?), to modify my POH as needed. (For example, when I install the Bender Baffle I will add a section on it into the POH.) If that modification is to add equipment needed for IFR, then I modify that statement in the POH. My operating restrictions do not preclude flight into IMC if the plane is so equipped.

Contrary opinions?

Oh - by light IFR (I KNOW the term is undefined!) - it has always been my preference to file IFR regardless of the weather for most cross-country flights. (Particularly when I used to operate out of the Houston Class B.) Just makes things so much easier. For my RV12 with autopilot and ADSB I would have no qualms about enroute IFR (non-convective) conditions or even ILS approaches if I added that capability. Certainly a more capable platform than the typical 172/PA28 I used to fly with six-pack avionics.

With a brand new Garmin Com radio - and a backup hand-held King, that seems OK.
 
Interesting. The Van's Pilot Operating Handbook applies to the ELSA supplied in the kit. If I then modify my ELSA I am entitled, even required (?), to modify my POH as needed. (For example, when I install the Bender Baffle I will add a section on it into the POH.) If that modification is to add equipment needed for IFR, then I modify that statement in the POH. My operating restrictions do not preclude flight into IMC if the plane is so equipped.

Contrary opinions?

The only requirement (currently anyway) regarding the POH is that Van's supply it to you with the kit.
After that, it is up to you what you do with it.

On an S-LSA, The POH is a required item that must be in the cockpit during flight. For E-LSA (experimental) that requirement does not apply.

As for IFR, currently an S-LSA can not be approved unless the manufacturer (or other OEM's related to the aircraft) have approved it (remember it is a certified aircraft to some level). Rotax specifically prohibits IFR with their engine unless it is the certificated version.
This does not apply to an E-LSA RV-12. It is no different than any other experimental. If it is properly equipped, it can be used for IFR.
 
Interesting and appealing Bill. I am thinking that you would NOT have to be IFR current or rated even, since you are not actually flying IMC? Is that correct?
Interesting.
Contrary opinions?
Oh - by light IFR (I KNOW the term is undefined!) - it has always been my preference to file IFR regardless of the weather for most cross-country flights. (Particularly when I used to operate out of the Houston Class B.) Just makes things so much easier. For my RV12 with autopilot and ADSB I would have no qualms about enroute IFR (non-convective) conditions or even ILS approaches if I added that capability. Certainly a more capable platform than the typical 172/PA28 I used to fly with six-pack avionics.

With a brand new Garmin Com radio - and a backup hand-held King, that seems OK.
 
It is my understanding that you must be both RATED and CURRENT in order to accept (as PIC) an IFR clearance and/or operate under Instrument Flight Rules, regardless of the weather conditions. That was certainly the case a few years ago, see part 61. Perhaps 61.3 unless it has been changed.
 
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Upping to IFR on an RV

This is basically the same thread so I hope I'm not a thread-jacker.

I'm buying an RV-6A that currently has a D100, a navaid devices autopilot, another device for for altitude hold....

I'm thinking of adding a Garmin 300XL (approach certified non-WAAS GPS) and a VAL NAV 2000.

I think these two additions would make it legal for IFR.

My goals for IFR are to be able to punch out, fly above the weather, and then descend to my personal minimums (which are about double published mins)

I don't want to bump it out in the soup for long periods, but I also don't want to be grounded as often as I am currently.

Thoughts?
 
61.3 (e). You are correct; you must be rated and current to fly IFR (not IMC).

Be careful when planning "light" IFR. You may plan to fly on top at 5000' but ATC may limit you to 4000' which is right in the soup. You need to be able to fly in "hard" IMC.
 
Need GPS?

Be careful if you are looking at a nav/com only without certified GPS to get IFR capabilities.

I live in McKinney, TX and got my Instrument Rating this past fall. The two airports closest to me (KTKI, KGYI) where I would go if I needed an IFR approach at home along with Johnson County Executive (KOJC) where I go fairly often all require ADF for the ILS. A lot of other ILS approaches I looked at required ADF or DME.

Even the VOR approach at KTKI needs a DME (or cert GPS). They killed the VOR at KOJC now so the VOR approach there is gone. I now have a GTN 650 in the RV because I ran into this problem on just about every trip I planned last fall after getting my rating.

Thought about using the RV for IFR training (pre GTN) and I would have to go a long way to find airports with 3 different type approaches I could fly (ILS, VOR, LOC) that did not require either ADF or DME in the notes on the approach plate.

Andy
 
Just to be clear, we mean an IFR navigator, not just a GPS position source. You need something like an Avidyne 540 or Garmin GTN/GNS.

I'd be concerned about the power consumption. I'd assume that the ship runs at 80% of max which I've read is around 20A for the internal alternator. The SL 40 is about 3A max while the GTN will peak at around 6A - again, from a quick read of the IM's on line.

There is an external alternator option for the 912 which appears to produce 45A.

Of course - all this is going to weigh more.
 
I'd be concerned about the power consumption. I'd assume that the ship runs at 80% of max which I've read is around 20A for the internal alternator. The SL 40 is about 3A max while the GTN will peak at around 6A - again, from a quick read of the IM's on line.

There is an external alternator option for the 912 which appears to produce 45A.

Of course - all this is going to weigh more.

I think those are intermittant loads, only while transmitting. No problem with letting the battery carry the extra load for the few seconds you are transmitting.
 
IFR Power Requirements

Ran across this thread and want to give it a "bump" because I am considering installing IFR capability in my RV12 and have some input on power usage.

I have an IFR RV6 with Skyview and normally power: 10" Skyview, GTN650, Dynon Com & Intercom, Dynon transponder, Dynon ADSB, Dynon D6 and Whelen Strobes. My recollection is that this draws about 9 amps in normal flight - higher when transmitting.

This equipment works well in the RV6 and I would do the same setup in the RV12, except probably a Dynon D1 instead of the D6.

If I turn on pitot heat, nav lights and my old fashioned dual automotive landing lights the amps go WAY up in the RV6 but I would have none of those in the RV12.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone on the forum operating their RV12 in IMC - how you have it equipped and how satisfactory it has been.
 
Just curious if anyone has done/is doing anything like this? If so, what equipment are you using?
 
35jz9d3.jpg


Dynon: D1000, SV-XPNDR-261, SV-Knob, SV-AP-Panel, SV-ADS-B, GPS-250
Avidyne IFD540 with IFD100 on iPAD Mini4, Garmin GA35 WAAS antenna
Garmin GTR200
PS Eng PM3000 w/COMM1, COMM2, NAV switch (4P3T)
Dynon heated pitot/AOA in wing, NAV/ILS antenna on top of VS
ForeFlight 9.1.3 on iPAD Mini4 w/DUAL WAAS GPS
D1000, IFD540, and iPAD are all connected by WIFI/BT (synch ForeFlight FPs)
Dual batteries with A/B power buss (more for the dual ECU and fuel pumps, than avionics)

The IDF100 duplicates the IFD540 data and can be used as an additional display/control for the 540. Nice because you can setup the 540 for a FP/approach and use the 100 to look at/change other 540 data.

Setup hits about 35A with the pitot heat and lights on. Other items to keep in mind: IFD540 added 11 lbs to panel and depth pushes connector wiring within an inch of the firewall. A 3/4x3/4 AL angle was added to the F1202B panel base from the left to right longerons to handle the extra weight (originally also included the second battery in the map box area). The F1202J instrument rack brackets were replaced with a custom bracket that incorporates the F1202K bracket that works with the one-piece panel design. There is a lot of wire running down the tunnel to the tail cone, so plan ahead for snap bushings & holes.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
 
IFR Flying

Please state what FAR. It may be wise to have one, but it isn't in 91.205. Likewise 91.205 doesn't require backups, alternate/backup power, etc. But it might be a good idea.

What he said. In the end, you only need the navigation equipment required for the flight. In other words, you don't need a GPS unless your doing GPS approaches, and you don't need a WAAS GPS unless your doing RNAV approaches that require WAAS. You can get by with a simple NAV radio and do VOR approaches.

When you say "light IFR", I understand what you mean:
UOAv54b.jpg

I took this photo this morning on the way in to work; it's a beautiful day, but with a cloud tops at 1800' and bases at 1,000'. I obviously suck at panoramic photos in flight, but you get the idea. To be certain, it's the same equipment requirement for "hard IFR".

In addition to the VFR equipment, you just need the 9 items listed in 91.205. For an experimental airplane, unless it's prohibited in your Operating Limitations for some crazy reason, be rated and current as PIC and go fly; that's it.

Now, you can go crazy, like some nut I know personally, but it's not required:
KNAD5OE.jpg
 
In addition to the VFR equipment, you just need the 9 items listed in 91.205. For an experimental airplane, unless it's prohibited in your Operating Limitations for some crazy reason, be rated and current as PIC and go fly; that's it.

Small clarification: The FARs restrict EAB to Day-VFR. What you're looking for in your Op Limits is a waiver, allowing IFR if equipped per 91.205.
 
Small clarification: The FARs restrict EAB to Day-VFR. What you're looking for in your Op Limits is a waiver, allowing IFR if equipped per 91.205.

It is a nuance, but an important one. The FAR Bob is referring to is 91.319.d.2; As long as you are smart about your operating limitations, it should refer to FAA Order 8130.2H, Appendix C, paragraph 41 allowing VFR day, night, and IFR operations. I'd also ask for para 46, operations over populated areas.

...and then just be current and properly equipped for the flight. ;)
 
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