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Want to get a grip

descro

Member
New builder looking for experienced advice about what you put on your grips.

What functions are best to have at your fingertips all the time?

I see the PTT, Coulee Hat (Pitch/Roll) trim and Autopilot disconnect on some builder photos.

Suggestions for 2 other functions, please?

Will be installing a Garmin 3GX system, IFR use.


Thanks for your inputs!
 
FWIW, many years ago in my RV-8, I had the following on an Infinity grip:

  • Upper right - start button
  • Coolie hat - pitch & roll trim
  • Upper left - flaps
  • Trigger - PTT
The current (early) thinking for my upcoming RV-14A project, also utilizing Infinity grips:

  • Upper outboard - AP disconnect & CWS
  • Coolie hat - pitch & roll trim
  • Upper inboard - flaps
  • Trigger - PTT
  • Thumb - comm flip/flop
  • Lower - TOGA
 
Trigger - PTT
Top Right - Flaps
Coolio Hat - Trims
Top Left - TOGA
Thumb - AP Disco/CWS
Low button - Air Horn
 
Strictly day VFR, I plan to have a PTT button on my throttle. Nothing, not a single button, on the stick grip.

I am aware that this sort of conflicts with the "add every option possible" mode of thinking, but I learned a long time ago that KISS is the finest possible approach to design. KISS means "Keep It Simple, Stupid," and while it appears simple, it's not. Done right, anyway.

The autopilot (yeah, I know, not simple, sigh) disconnect button will be on the panel, in front of me. Inches away and yet it's not as easily pressed by mistake as a stick grip button would be.

Dave
 
The autopilot (yeah, I know, not simple, sigh) disconnect button will be on the panel, in front of me. Inches away and yet it's not as easily pressed by mistake as a stick grip button would be.

Dave

Before you do this, make sure your A/P doesnt have CWS. It is really nice to have the stick button for this.
 
If you care to look a Tosten, call them, Kevin plans to be at Van’s this coming Wednesday. I’m dropping in with an appointment to “get a grip” after trying them on for size.
PTT, AP disconnect with CWS, ident, freq. flip flop and AP auto level. I have mechanical trims, Kevin said he can cap off the top hat.
 
This is another topic with lots of opinions and preferences, but let me try to add a little logic and history into the mix.

When I worked at Boeing, the phrase was that gadgets had to earn their way into the cockpit. A similar thought could apply to the stick grip. To earn their way onto the stick grip, those functions should:
* Be used frequently;
* Be needed quickly;
* Be safe, so that inadvertent actuation doesn't cause problems;
* Be consistent with other aircraft so that other pilots (or mechanics) operating your plane don't get surprised, or so that you don't build habits that cause you problems in other planes. (This includes new owners when you finally sell);
* Be labeled;
* Have to be on the stick because otherwise you'd run out of hands.

Obvious candidates for going onto the stick are PTT and electric trim.

On my RV-9A, which I bought with a bunch of avionics already in it, the stick has only PTT, but elevator trim is a rocker switch above the throttle so it is very handy, almost as handy as being on the stick.

My autopilot has control wheel steering (or whatever Garmin calls it), but I've never seen any need for it in the -9A. If I really needed it, it would probably go onto the stick. We wound up putting the autopilot disconnect atop the radio stack (with CWS not enabled), and it works fine there -- never needed in a hurry, never hit inadvertently, well labeled.

Similarly, TOGA is adjacent to the throttle. Hard to hit inadvertently, easy to label, never needed in a big hurry.

Frequency swap? Leave that on the radio, it doesn't earn its way onto the stick.

Flaps? Maybe. Sometimes in the RV-8 I'd like to be able to dump the flaps on rollout, and my flap switch is spring loaded to the center in both directions. It is very conveniently located next to the throttle, but even if it would stay in the flaps up position, I'd certainly consider having it on the stick if I were building from scratch.

Historical trivia:
* One vendor, intent on selling his stick grip with everything on it, talked about how great it was to have the starter motor on the switch in case the engine quit right after takeoff. Really? C'mon, now. There's an argument to be made that with the starter on the stick, you don't have to hold the stick back with your knees during engine start, but there's always the risk of hitting the starter inadvertently with the engine running -- unless there is a separate toggle switch to energize the starter switch on the stick. Talk about a learning curve for anybody new to the airplane...
* The LoPresti Swift Fury was trying too hard with their HOTAS (Hand On Throttle And Stick) and they even had the cowl flaps on the stick. Why? Cowl flaps aren't needed frequently, not needed in a hurry, hard to label. Bad idea;
* Not sure I'll get all the details right on this story, but there was a P-38 squadron in the Pacific in which not all the planes had the same switches do the same things. The functions that were inconsistent across the planes were push to talk, drop the external tanks, and fire the guns. One phrase they used was that some pilots were talking through their tanks. Or if you were transmitting instead of shooting, maybe you were supposed to say bang...
* Jets flown single pilot (I think) are still required to have transponder ident on the control wheel. Why? Because years ago, it was common for departure control to ask to the pilot to ident right after takeoff when workload was high. These days, only occasionally am I asked to ident -- it's almost a novelty.

An insidious aspect of human factors design is that there are few things that are obviously, truly bad -- but there are lots of subtle things that occasionally cause accidents. "It's an experimental, and you can do what you want... if you're willing to pay a price that you may not know about."

Ed
 
I bought an RV-8 with lots of buttons on the stick grip. I haven't been impressed by switches on grips in the past but the new bird was set up this way. I have now grown to really like it. It has:
PTT
Starter (with an enable toggle on the panel that can be turned off after start)
Coolie hat trim (both axis)
AP Disconnect/CWS
Fuel Boost Pump
Flaps

My findings:
The item I originally disliked being on the stick ended up being the thing I absolutely fell in love with. The flap toggle on the stick. I now know why most Air Tractor pilots set up their birds this way. I never have to look at the panel for a flap switch on roll-out. It's simply awesome.

The item I thought was pure novelty was the starter engage switch. Again I love the fact I can keep the elevator back during start while using my left hand to run the engine controls. Super cool. Again this starter button has a disarm switch on the panel so the starter cannot be engaged in flight.

Fuel boost pump is a blue button down low and I have gotten very used to using it. I have also noticed (like the other buttons) that I rarely have to divert attention from outside the windscreen to inside the cockpit during takeoff/landing.

I have a buddy who has radio flip/flop and xpndr ident buttons on his grip. Every time I fly his bird I accidentally hit ident due to the position of that button. Ident. Really? Could you think of a more useless button to need instant access to on a stick? And as far as radio flip/flop the pilot needs to tune frequencies with his hand right next to the flip/flop button anyway. Radio frequecies. Transponder codes. Idents. That's all completely unimportant stuff to me as they serve no purpose in controlling the flight path or systems of the airplane. Those things are for the outside world. Which can wait.

Summary: I love having flaps, starter and boost pump on the stick along side the typical PTT and trim functions. I don't think much of radio and transponder buttons on the stick.

Jim
 
From personal experience - do not put the starter button on the stick. Did this on the first plane and it was disconnected before the second flight.

Carl
 
I have the Tosten grips and use the coolee hat for trim, trigger for PTT, small button under the PTT for autopilot disconnect, and the two top buttons for flaps up and down. The flap buttons are disabled by the vertical power unit until you are down to a set speed, so no worries about extending flaps at cruise speeds.
 
I very deliberately put my starter button on the stick in my -8 so I could keep my hands on both throttle and stick (HOTAS) during start and it worked out perfectly. I used the upper right button so that it would require a very deliberate thumb movement (for this right-handed pilot) beyond the coolie hat to actuate the button.

Since I'll be using a more prosaic key switch starter for the -14A, that same switch position (the upper, outboard, switch position - which will be the upper left button for the pilot grip and the upper right button for the co-pilot grip) will be utilized for the AP Disconnect/CWS - which I firmly believe should be on the stick and not the panel.

Still, these sorts of topics tend to rapidly devolve into camps of rigidly held and unalterable opinions. Do whatever you like (one of the great advantages of building experimentals), but do it deliberately, with planning and intent, then practice in your airplane until the buttonology you created is second-nature.
 
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Consider practical aspects.

All grip switches require long wire runs, compared to panel mounted switches.

The wire runs are subjected to motion, where they transition from airframe to stick. They require special care against wear and breakage.

The grip switches are generally low amp only. That's fine for things like AP disconnect or push to talk, but everything else will require one or more relays, with associated wiring.

Cockpit switches are to be labeled. A coolie hat is pretty obvious, and a trigger is almost always PTT; we might argue that they don't really need labels. However, given the willy-nilly implementation right here in this thread, you'll need to find panel space for a nice graphic of your grip, with labels for all the rest. In 12 years on this forum, I've seen exactly one (Matt Dralle's RV-8).

Many older guys, in particular those with a bunch of shop time, have problems with basal thumb joints. A whole lot of thumb button motion isn't welcome.

Depending on button arrangement, some stick grips are like a minefield in the cockpit. Buttons on top of the stick are the worst offenders. It's not just disconnecting the autopilot while chasing the cookie bag. I once scared myself silly when the 8A I was flying required hard forward pressure in the last quarter of a loop. Yes, a trim button had contacted the seat belt latch.

Last consider dynamic factors. One poster made reference to flaps up and down buttons on top of a grip. Ok, so do a go-around. How do you raise the flaps and trim at the same time? Me, I only have one thumb on that hand ;)
 
All those fancy A/P CWS/Disconnect and radio flip/flop (are you kidding me!) switches that the smart *** builder of my -9 installed over a decade ago have long since been broken off flush with the top of the stick. Good riddance! The label in my head reads "Abandoned in place, INOP".
 
Consider practical aspects.

All grip switches require long wire runs, compared to panel mounted switches.

The wire runs are subjected to motion, where they transition from airframe to stick. They require special care against wear and breakage.

The grip switches are generally low amp only. That's fine for things like AP disconnect or push to talk, but everything else will require one or more relays, with associated wiring.

Cockpit switches are to be labeled. A coolie hat is pretty obvious, and a trigger is almost always PTT; we might argue that they don't really need labels. However, given the willy-nilly implementation right here in this thread, you'll need to find panel space for a nice graphic of your grip, with labels for all the rest. In 12 years on this forum, I've seen exactly one (Matt Dralle's RV-8).

Many older guys, in particular those with a bunch of shop time, have problems with basal thumb joints. A whole lot of thumb button motion isn't welcome.

Depending on button arrangement, some stick grips are like a minefield in the cockpit. Buttons on top of the stick are the worst offenders. It's not just disconnecting the autopilot while chasing the cookie bag. I once scared myself silly when the 8A I was flying required hard forward pressure in the last quarter of a loop. Yes, a trim button had contacted the seat belt latch.

Last consider dynamic factors. One poster made reference to flaps up and down buttons on top of a grip. Ok, so do a go-around. How do you raise the flaps and trim at the same time? Me, I only have one thumb on that hand ;)

Agree with Dan, KISS. The only thing that belongs on the stick IMO is PTT, Trim and AP disconnect. And for the side/side models nothing on the RH stick so it can be removed quickly and easily.
 
And for the side/side models nothing on the RH stick so it can be removed quickly and easily.

Hey now, you aren't going to get rid of me that easy. The RH stick is the most important one...
 
Hey now, you aren't going to get rid of me that easy. The RH stick is the most important one...

If you're sitting in the RH seat you're allowed to 'fly' when I ask you to, but step away from the buttons :D
 
I've wondered if I should...

Trigger - PTT
Top Right - Flaps
Coolio Hat - Trims
Top Left - TOGA
Thumb - AP Disco/CWS
Low button - Air Horn

Air horn. Now there's a thought I've had a hundred times. Mostly for trying to clear a beach if I have to dead stick there. Or get deer off my runway when they ignore a low pass.

But it might also make a buzz job more impressive. Not that I condone such behavior.
 
Some Standardization Needed!

One thing worth thinking about is that so many stick buttons aren't standardized, one plane to the next. Without careful labeling, there's no way to know what a button is for - except for the coolie hat, if there even is one.

For example, DanH stated that "...the trigger is almost always PTT," and well it might be, except that I surely didn't know it. I thought that a trigger was a trigger, and couldn't understand why someone would want one if they didn't have a camera or guns.

As a result, I have a thoroughly-ingrained fear of pressing an unknown button. Who knows what mayhem will result?

The poor photo is a screenshot from an F-104D flight manual showing that it's a trigger.

F-104_Grip.jpg


More to the point of ergonomics, a trigger button takes a somewhat large motion to apply it than a regular button. It's less tiring to use one of the smaller buttons. On my non-RV (no, it's not a 104), there's a button that my left index finger presses for PTT. Easy.

Quick note to Mike S - Mike, you're probably right, but the RV-3 cockpit is small enough that I don't think a panel button will be a detriment for the AP disconnect.

Dave
 
to each his own but...

From personal experience - do not put the starter button on the stick. Did this on the first plane and it was disconnected before the second flight.

Carl

THIS. I bought an RV-9A that had the starter button on the Infinity Grip. That was a terrible, terrible idea, IMHO. I actually had someone bump it accidentally while I was walking around the plane. Could have been ugly.

While he was upgrading my avionics, Vic Syracuse solved the problem by moving the starter to a guarded toggle switch on the panel, so now to start the plane, I basically have to deliberately launch a Minuteman Missile. Much, much better.

Currently I've got trim, PTT, CWS/Autopilot disconnect for the Garmin autopilot, and (at Vic's suggestion), IDENT for the transponder. The latter is surprisingly handy!!
 
I?d like to echo...

The comments made by Ed, Dan and Walt upthread...

Less is more.

Simpler is better.

The builder of my RV-7 put a set of Infinity grips on them and every button or switch has a function...starter, boost pump, flaps, PTT, AP Disco...etc. All of those tiny wires in close proximity, moving around in two control columns...I know my day is coming when a failure is going to happen. Hopefully it will be at home and hopefully, it won’t ground me if I’m not.

First off, if you don’t want all switches active all the time on both grips, you’ll have to wire in a “Pilot/Both” panel switch or else run the risk of a switch getting inadvertently activated by a passenger. This happened one day, I didn’t see it, and that is how I couldn’t get the flaps down once (Pax accidentally put flap switch in “UP” detent, which negated control from my side. Plus, flap motor ran continuously until I got aircraft on the ground and figured it out...) In fact, I later had a panel mounted LED light installed on the “UP” side of the flap motor circuit because this was such an reoccurring issue with either side’s grip. Bumping that little switch would kick the flap motor on and I wasn’t aware of it unless I just happened to find it (you can’t hear flap motor running inflight). PITA...and a failure point.

The starter on the grip, while nice, complicates the circuit with its add’l panel mounted safety switch. Another potential point of failure.

Boost pump-blue button on grip, many’s the time I wished he’d just used a switch on the panel. Easy, simple to see/activate. What’s my beef? Well...the grip mounted switch needed a light to see if it is “ON” or not...which is great until the little light goes Tango Uniform and now the mystery begins...Yeah, it’s easy before start or at idle to tell the pump is on because of the pump noise, but inflight because of high noise levels you can’t hear the thing running...and if you’re back at idle, you can’t see the “bump” in fuel flow typically seen at cruise power settings when you cycle it on or off. You punch the button and find yourself wondering “is it on? Or did I leave it on last time I swapped tanks and now I’ve turned it off? On? Off? #$%#@!!!” A panel-mounted switch removes all the mystery, requires no light and is safe and simple.

Finally, I’d like to second the comments about simplifying the passengers side grip, or leaving functions off of it completely. If you do wire one up, put quick disconnects (another failure point) into it!!!

Eliminating the pax grip means none of the inadvertent actuation stuff I mentioned would happen, simplifies the circuitry, and as already stated...it makes it sooo much easier to remove that sides stick. My wife (non pilot) flies with me XC a lot in the “Family Jet” and more than any junk on her control column grip (never used) more than any soothing music I can pump over headphones...what she most wants is the room to be able to occasionally stretch and cross her legs! Can’t do with it my set up because I can’t pull her stick out as there were no QD’s used on the grip on that side and I don’t want to start doing surgery putting them in because I don’t want to create a problem when I didn’t have one! :mad::mad:

If I had a do-over my grip set up would be: Radio PTT, trim. AP disconnect too, if you have one. Put everything else on the panel!

My dos centavos...
 
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I?ve been flying with Infinity grips for 16 years and installed them on three airplanes. I have never had a switch or wire failure. Some thoughts:
- For side by side planes I have a DPDT toggle switches on the panel labeled ?PILOT/COPILOT?. What the switch does is connect the common ground for the trim hat switch and the flap switch. This eliminates the co-pilot from activating either trim or flaps, and it provides and installed spare if the pilot controls break.
- I don?t use the blue pinky switch as I find it easy to bump with my leg. Never really had a need for it anyway.
- As I stated before, strongly recommend not putting the starter switch on the grip.
- If you don?t use the pinky switch, the stick wires can use a 15 pin D connector for stick removal.
- I have a good size loop for the cable coming out of the stick for flex.

Carl
 
Air horn. Now there's a thought I've had a hundred times. Mostly for trying to clear a beach if I have to dead stick there. Or get deer off my runway when they ignore a low pass.

But it might also make a buzz job more impressive. Not that I condone such behavior.

When I'm done with it I'll post the info out there. The unit I bought was $40, it's light and came with a relay. Easy....
 
This is another topic with lots of opinions and preferences, but let me try to add a little logic and history into the mix.

When I worked at Boeing, the phrase was that gadgets had to earn their way into the cockpit. A similar thought could apply to the stick grip. To earn their way onto the stick grip, those functions should:
* Be used frequently;
* Be needed quickly;
* Be safe, so that inadvertent actuation doesn't cause problems;
* Be consistent with other aircraft so that other pilots (or mechanics) operating your plane don't get surprised, or so that you don't build habits that cause you problems in other planes. (This includes new owners when you finally sell);
* Be labeled;
* Have to be on the stick because otherwise you'd run out of hands.

.
.
.
Ed

+1!!

Ed you knocked this one out of the park. Having a good criteria for buttonology and making each function "earn its way" onto the stick just warms this engineers heart.

You can apply this logic to switch placement on the panel as well. Group switches by function. I've seen some panels with a bunch of identical switches in a row with no spacing between them. The master switch is right next to the fuel pump which is next to the landing light. Gee that's not a disaster waiting to happen.
 
I have a Ray Allen 5 button G205 set up for push to talk, trim up/down, autopilot disconnect, and xpnder ident.

If I had it to do over again I would only include a push to talk switch on the stick. Dedicated switches on the panel could be within easy reach and, I believe, just as easy to use, and much easier to install.

Warren
RV-7
Plymouth, MN
250 hrs.
 
Control Wheel Stearing.

One implementation is that it can be used for AP engage/disengage with a short push and if holding it in you temporary disable the AP and it automatically goes back on when you release the button.

Great Thanks for that.
 
smoke

I am installing a Ray Allen G205 in my RV-4 and am setting up one of the buttons to control my smoke system pump. I have a master toggle on the panel, then the button will trigger a small "flip-flop" relay, which will toggle the smoke on and off with each push. Others are PTT, AP disconnect, and trim.

Now if I could just find that book I had on skywriting...:D

Charles
 
Consider practical aspects.

All grip switches require long wire runs, compared to panel mounted switches.

The wire runs are subjected to motion, where they transition from airframe to stick. They require special care against wear and breakage.

The grip switches are generally low amp only. That's fine for things like AP disconnect or push to talk, but everything else will require one or more relays, with associated wiring.

Cockpit switches are to be labeled. A coolie hat is pretty obvious, and a trigger is almost always PTT; we might argue that they don't really need labels. However, given the willy-nilly implementation right here in this thread, you'll need to find panel space for a nice graphic of your grip, with labels for all the rest. In 12 years on this forum, I've seen exactly one (Matt Dralle's RV-8).

Many older guys, in particular those with a bunch of shop time, have problems with basal thumb joints. A whole lot of thumb button motion isn't welcome.

Depending on button arrangement, some stick grips are like a minefield in the cockpit. Buttons on top of the stick are the worst offenders. It's not just disconnecting the autopilot while chasing the cookie bag. I once scared myself silly when the 8A I was flying required hard forward pressure in the last quarter of a loop. Yes, a trim button had contacted the seat belt latch.

Last consider dynamic factors. One poster made reference to flaps up and down buttons on top of a grip. Ok, so do a go-around. How do you raise the flaps and trim at the same time? Me, I only have one thumb on that hand ;)

On the go around question, for my set up, Brien helped me configure the Infinity grips, the flap switch is configured momentary for flaps down and maintain for flaps up with a flaps up cut out micro switch at the top of flap travel. easy :D
 
Second PTT on the panel for me

I am not to the point of designing the control logic for my RV. But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

Many, many years ago I accompanied a friend in his newly built RV to Sun'n Fun. He asked me to do the radio work, which I was glad to do. I learned how careful one had to be as a passenger when operating the PTT on the right side stick. The first few times I transmitted we gained considerable altitude. It wasn't a problem when I was flying the airplane; but it was when we split duties.

I returned from that trip and told several RV friends that my RV would have the second PTT mounted on the panel rather than the passenger side stick. I have noticed several of my RV friends have taken my advice (or they figured it out on their own). Plus, as others have stated, it makes it easier to remove the passenger stick if there are no wires for that side.
 
copied from another thread...

I have the same grips (when I bought them they were CH products) and would offer a cautionary tale: In my original build I used every switch, including using the small low-profile one on the front of the grip below the big high profile "trigger", and I wired this small low-profile button for radio swap between com 1 and com 2. In one of my first taxi tests I got my taxi clearance from ground and started to taxi the way I was trained, with the stick fully aft. After a while I realized that the ground frequency was being used for tower frequency and I glanced at the active radio and found that the wrong comm was active. I switched back to ground and checked in and they said I had missed a few calls.

The switch below the trigger is where your finger naturally pulls to pull back on the stick. I immediately disconnected that switch and will never use it.

Don't feel obliged to use every button and really consider the human factors of what happens in each phase from start up to shut down and get in the plane and MOVE THE STICK to mime the action, preferably with someone in the passenger seat, belts on. Pay attention to everything in the vicinity of every button.

Another gotcha I had was flying with my wife on a long cross country in the winter. We brought a blanket for in flight warmth. She was shifting it as we were at cruise and all of a sudden I have a sudden pitch down which I can't explain. I look over and she has draped the blanket OVER the trim switch! My bad...I didn't explain the switch or the function. We now fly with that stick out. Yes, I wired it with quick disconnect molex at the base of the stick so all functions are mirrored on both sticks for other pilots I fly with and train with. Easy to disconnect the grip functions while leaving the stick and pull the stick itself as well, depending on the situation.

BTW, DanH, I have a graphic of the grips with labels on my new panel that I'm in the process of upgrading. When the panel is done, I will post a picture. My original airworthiness inspection required placarded grip labels.
 
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