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RV-12 Formation Flying Interest?

I guess the admin deleted it. I posted in General Discussion, then copied that link here. I wanted the post in General Discussion to be the main one. I will contact the admin and ask it be restored.
 
If the thread s not restored: The RV12 flies a bit slow for formation with other RVs, which I am told fly formation at 120 to 140kt. But it sure looks like FUN! (I did formation once as part of "Air Aces" laser dogfighting in T34s.) At Petit Jean there were 4 of the pilots in the rceent 49 ship formation and they had a great video presentation!

So to start in one of the formation training workshops we need 4 RV12s interested. I am in northern central Arkansas (near KHRO). There is a big formation group in Kansas City and another in Little Rock. Formation workshops are put on periodically in several places.

So anyone else interested??? And please - comments from you folks that organize these workshops!

Bill H. N412BR "Sweetie"
Skyview with ADSB, flying 1.5 yrs.
 
Bill, here is a great piece of reading on formation flight. There is an RV version but it is a lot less detailed. The basic differences are the airspeeds and maneuvers. The technique, signals, and explanations about energy management are really well done. It's a couple of nights reading. Sent you a copy directly.

www.flyfast.org/sites/all/docs/FAST_FKG.pdf

You can google the RV version if you like. There is a formation clinic in Pine Bluff in two weeks. You might want to come and sit through the ground school and see if you like what you hear.

I also remember some guys trying to get an RV12 group together but I think it's the lack of numbers that is holding the RV12 back and not the lack of interest. Formation flight is fun and challenging no matter what the airspeed or type of aircraft. I would think the RV12 would make a nice airplane for slow formation work and would stay close to the airport in patterns with the lower airspeed.

The biggest single issue is that you have to have some critical mass of airplanes and interested pilots so that you can practice on a regular basis.
 
I've also wondered about formation work in RV-12s and figured it would come up eventually. I don't know if I'd be interested since I don't know squat about it, but it does look like fun. The big however seems to me to be the spring-loaded throttle in the -12. Would that be a non-start?way too risky? Any comment about that from knowledgeable pilots?
 
My reading is that FF prefers non-vernier throttles, springs not mentioned. I put weaker springs in mine and like that. Given the normal engine vibration, I bet even still-weaker springs would still open the throttle in case of a cable break. Or, remove them before doing formation if it seems like an issue when learning.
 
Formation in slower aircraft isn't that much of an issue, certainly RV-12's could learn to fly together. Flying with other RV's is possible as well, if you have a willing group. Our usual group occasionally flies with some Globe Swifts, one of which has the smaller engine. With it we slow down to 110 kt, 125 mph, for our "nominal" speed. We've had everything from a 150HP fixed-pitch RV-6 to a 240HP constant-speed Rocket flying happily at that speed.

Interesting about the spring-loaded throttle... Does it have a friction lock? I don't have a vernier, but I do use my friction lock to apply a little "drag" to the throttle while in formation. Maybe that's possible on the -12 too?
 
My reading is that FF prefers non-vernier throttles, springs not mentioned. I put weaker springs in mine and like that. Given the normal engine vibration, I bet even still-weaker springs would still open the throttle in case of a cable break. Or, remove them before doing formation if it seems like an issue when learning.
My [limited] experience with formation flying is that you never let go of the throttle anyway. The ostensible problem with vernier throttles is that you have to be able to make rapid, constant, small-to-large adjustments and won't have time to screw around with vernier. [That's a pun, in case you missed it.]

It was a lot of fun, but it's pretty intense, at least at first. http://n466pg.blogspot.com/2007/05/formation-clinic.html
 
East coast formation

QUOTE=Dgamble;821539]My [limited] experience with formation flying is that you never let go of the throttle anyway. The ostensible problem with vernier throttles is that you have to be able to make rapid, constant, small-to-large adjustments and won't have time to screw around with vernier. [That's a pun, in case you missed it.]

It was a lot of fun, but it's pretty intense, at least at first. http://n466pg.blogspot.com/2007/05/formation-clinic.html[/QUOTE]

I plan on getting training from the formation group on the east coast, there 3 or 4 RV12s who have shown an interest. We are looking into having a private class for the 12 pilots in the area. Then the next step will be to look into training with the Redstar pilots association. Keep in mind I want the personal knowledge for proficiency, safety and continue improving with my pilot skills. I am not looking into doing formation in wavered airspace at shows. Also formation will be in the 12s or like aircrafts, performed with low G?s and adapted for the slower RV12. We will stay in the 12?s acceptable flight envelope. (formation lite?)

Regarding the vernier - I agree with you on the and did put in the new McFarland throttle, same one as the Vans throttle, except with the Vernier and Friction lock features. The new one allows for push pull and fine tuning with a twist, very smooth
.
throttle photo.JPG
 
There is a group here called Tiger Flight that does formation in Ercoupes. They mainly do kid rides and small town formation flyovers.

No reason you can't do it that in a -12. You don't have to do side-by-side hammerheads to enjoy formation and it be challenging.
 
As for the vernier throttle, some of the Texas V-tails (our local Bonanza formation group) have made a simple Velcro device to hold the vernier "button" in while flying formation.
 
Regarding the vernier - I agree with you on the and did put in the new McFarland throttle, same one as the Vans throttle, except with the Vernier and Friction lock features. The new one allows for push pull and fine tuning with a twist, very smooth.
That throttle cable is definitely on my to-do list - if only I had listened to Bill H. about doing the panel mod that would have made it so much easier...
 
The RV-12 throttle system is not a problem for formation, as I've flown it a bunch chasing photo ships for Vans. You certainly do have to get used to the spring loaded aspect and the copious use of the friction lock, but you have to do that anyway. While in formation though, you are quite active on the throttle so it's no different than any other RV...

Light Sport formation is where a lot of us are headed :rolleyes: as we age, so why not develop it. Attend a local formation clinic, especially the ground school, read and understand the T-34 manual and the RV Supplement, and then get a ride along. If there is another RV-12 there with an experienced formation pilot, then you've got a 2-ship, which is all you are going to do for the first umpteen flights anyway.

Many of us got a chance to see the young kids flying the Breezers at S&F and they do a great job. It should be no different wih the RV-12.:D
 
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As for the vernier throttle, some of the Texas V-tails (our local Bonanza formation group) have made a simple Velcro device to hold the vernier "button" in while flying formation.

The McFarland doesn't have a vernier button. It only has a friction knob. When the friction is set you can turn the knob. If the friction is a bit released it works like a normal throttle cable. Very nice product! Installation takes about an hour (carb balance not included). No throttle creep with the supplied springs.
 
The RV-12 throttle system is not a problem for formation, as I've flown it a bunch chasing photo ships for Vans. You certainly do have to get used to the spring loaded aspect and the copious use of the friction lock, but you have to do that anyway. While in formation though, you are quite active on the throttle so it's no different than any other RV...

Light Sport formation is where a lot of us are headed :rolleyes: as we age, so why not develop it. Attend a local formation clinic, especially the ground school, read and understand the T-34 manual and the RV Supplement, and then get a ride along. If there is another RV-12 there with an experienced formation pilot, then you've got a 2-ship, which is all you are going to do for the first umpteen flights anyway.

Many of us got a chance to see the young kids flying the Breezers at S&F and they do a great job. It should be no different wih the RV-12.:D


Are we the only two FFI Formation pilots that would be willing to help out with RV-12 formation? Sounds like all we need is two RV-12 owners/pilots that want to do Safe Formation training when the two of us are in the same place.
 
Are we the only two FFI Formation pilots that would be willing to help out with RV-12 formation?

Well that would be a "no" Gary! ;) I'm in! :D

I was waiting for Shadey (Joe) to chime in, as I know he's flown the 12 for pics! Sounds like it'd work. Demand for clinic slots is always high (as you know), so whether we carve out a slot for, say 4 RV-12s at a clinic, or design and build a weekend event for a few 12s, getting a little LSA formation work going would be fun! I'll bet we could muster up a few fellas (and gals) that would like to experience flying the 12, and pass along some formation training.

A little work to determine sight lines and model-specific performance and procedural parameters would be needed, but that is basic foundation work, and should not be vastly different from other RVs. Shadey probably already has a head start on that!

Getting a few interested 12 folks in the same relative area, who are willing to help put it together, with support from local RV formation pilots, would be a good starting point. It tends to grow naturally from there!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Panel mod

That throttle cable is definitely on my to-do list - if only I had listened to Bill H. about doing the panel mod that would have made it so much easier...

Dave,

Which panel mod would that be?

Jerre
 
A little work to determine sight lines and model-specific performance and procedural parameters would be needed, but that is basic foundation work, and should not be vastly different from other RVs. Shadey probably already has a head start on that!

I'm ON it... ;)
 
So there is interest :)

Bill, looks like there is interest ..... now are there enough airplanes in the local area ? Including you, there were two 12s at Petit Jean this year .... Maybe thats your start :). I sent you the clinic info and RV formation guide by snail mail. Just need sight lines and airspeeds.... I would think the rest is pretty similar.

Somebody (RV12 drivers) should put the book together .......... :rolleyes:
 
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So I am reading the 2 formation books, read Dave G's great blog post, and will be at the 11-15 to 11-17 workshop in Pine Bluff AR, - auditing the ground school and maybe riding as a passenger. The hope is to eventualy form an RV12 formation group in this area! I think there are a couple of Pipersport LSAs nearby that would fit in, I have to check further. But, c'mon 12s!
Bill H., N412BR "Sweetie"
 
RV-12 Formation references

Since I have access to flying them, I took it up on myself to develop this information in response to this VAF thread on using RV-12's for formation and at formation clinics. While not too many folks are using -12's for that yet, you may begin to see an increased interest in them for formation use. Eventually some, if not most of us, will end up going the LSA route based on aging and medical qualifications so better to be ahead of the curve when approached at clinics :D

To date, I have about 100 hours in the model and have flown it in a lot of formation with camera aircraft as well as other 'chase' aircraft. It is quite capable and has a max roll rate that approaches what most of short wing RV's (3,4,6,7,8) will do. It does not, however, lend itself to being flown in a mixed formation with those aircraft models. Bottom line, it is quite compatible with it's own kind; other RV-12's in a formation flight. The main differences are cruise speed, weight, and wing loading. With 120 KTS as the max cruise speed it will certainly not keep up with the other models unless they are throttled significantly back. The aircraft wing loading is comparatively light and will move around in the lightest of turbulence. Empty weights are typically around 730-750 lbs depending on additional equipment installed which is about 200-400 lbs lighter than the short wing models.

At this point I don't know any group that has used the RV-12 in a 4-ship formation (although they might already be doing just that). Based on my experience with the aircraft, I think it could be easily flown in this configuration with trained pilots. You have probably seen the young adults flying the Breezers at Sun n Fun and at OSH. They did a great job with a similar aircraft model, so it would stand to reason that the RV-12 can be operated in a similar way.

I have developed some sight reference lines that work pretty well and are easily seen. (See attached Formation Spacing graphics). The primary sight line is the Outboard Flaperon Hinge Bracket superimposed on the Prop Spinner, much the same as the short wing RV's. The secondary sightline is slightly different from what we use now. It's the forward base of the Vertical Stab (specifically the VS-1204 attach screw line) lined up with the Forward Outboard Stabilator Corner (Leading Edge). This gives adequate wingtip clearance and a slightly stepped down configuration. (See Sight Lines graphic). While these pictures aren't exactly in position, you get the idea.

Formation Spacing graphic
RV-12%2520Formation%2520Spacing.jpg


RV-12 Sight Line Targets
RV-12%2520Sight%2520Lines%25202.jpg


Formation Model Adam Burch ;) Position shown slightly acute
RV-12%2520Sight%2520Lines%25201.jpg


Operating speeds should be around the 90-95KTS range which will give outside wingmen some power reserve. Since we have not done a 4-ship flight with them yet, the operating speeds are speculative at this time, but that range seems about right. I'm not sure what max bank angles this will allow until we actually get a flight of 4 in. The Slot, Trail, and Rejoin sight references should be very similar to the short wing RV's also.

So there you have it. Feel free to comment and add additional data as you see fit. I'll try to get further testing in when able so the information can be documented. This info has been forwarded on to Stu McCurdy and a few FFI Check Pilots for their input. The next steps would be to build an RV-12 Formation Syllabus for use in a clinic setting.
 
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Those sight lines look pretty good Joe. About 35 degrees I'd guess? I've flown my RV-8 off Valcik's -12 a few times (for photos) and it seems to work much better than the 45 degree we tend toward in the other RVs.

I am happy to see this conversation developing. Here in eastern PA we have an increasing number of -12s who fly together in what can best be described as a loose gaggle. The end result is that their approach to any field ends up looking less than stellar. Happily they show a real interest in learning a more professional looking method and to that end a few lead and wing rated pilots will be putting on a ground school and local flights to help guide them along. I have them reading the RedStar manual right now, mainly because its extremely detailed with excellent illustrations. We have both FFI and FAST qualified RV guys in the area who can help.

Be great to see more 12 specific ideas or a syllabus. For instance, your recommendation of 90 knots really helps as it gives me a place to start for basic air and pattern work. I am used to “formating” with Yaks, T-34s, CJs, and RVs. Even a Bonanza or two. While the basics are the same, its good to see solid numbers on how to coach guys in the 12s.

On that note, would you recommend limiting bank angles to 35 deg or less? Pitch angles? Guessing 20 is pushing it as I could see the 12 exceeding redline in a descending turn. Same for Gee limits in manuevering. While our ground school will cover the basics of formation, I don't want to draw them into something that we are used to in the other RVs but that would exceed their specs. So no extended trail using lead and lag persuit, at least not like we do in the 6-7-8 series! :D

If you have any more useful info please forward it to me via the private messaging on this site. Not everyone can make the clinic in NC so we are hoping to have something more local to help guys like these along. We hope to do a class and some airwork most ricky tic, so any info would be helpful. Its just too embarrassing seeing them carry on like this, all gaggly in the pattern. ;-)
 
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East coast formation

Joe thanks for pulling this info together. I have been discussing this with Scott and others in his group. We have 3 - 5 guys up here planning on working with the team in the east.

Scott I resemble that remark ?loose gaggles?, but then again that much better than some of the other names. :D


2013-08-13 formation-0002.jpg


Scott aka "Law Breaker" off my wing


2013-08-13 formation-0001.jpg


Scott focused on the site line

Really looking forward to the training :)
 
RV-12 Formation

Someone might want to check with Rotax about using "geared" engines in formation. New formation pilots tend to jockey the throttle quite a bit, NOT what a gear box likes. Be safe!
 
I am happy to see this conversation developing. Here in eastern PA we have an increasing number of -12s who fly together in what can best be described as a loose gaggle. The end result is that their approach to any field ends up looking less than stellar. Happily they show a real interest in learning a more professional looking method and to that end a few lead and wing rated pilots will be putting on a ground school and local flights to help guide them along. I have them reading the RedStar manual right now, mainly because its extremely detailed with excellent illustrations. We have both FFI and FAST qualified RV guys in the area who can help.

Be great to see more 12 specific ideas or a syllabus. For instance, your recommendation of 90 knots really helps as it gives me a place to start for basic air and pattern work. I am used to ?formating? with Yaks, T-34s, CJs, and RVs. Even a Bonanza or two. While the basics are the same, its good to see solid numbers on how to coach guys in the 12s.

On that note, would you recommend limiting bank angles to 35 deg or less? Pitch angles? Guessing 20 is pushing it as I could see the 12 exceeding redline in a descending turn. Same for Gee limits in manuevering. While our ground school will cover the basics of formation, I don't want to draw them into something that we are used to in the other RVs but that would exceed their specs. So no extended trail using lead and lag persuit, at least not like we do in the 6-7-8 series! :D

Bill/Scott/David,

Great to see the interest here. In order to see a successful development of the RV-12 formation program, I highly recommend getting the newbs into a clinic setting at some point. The learning an comraderie is unparralled. As we reach a critical mass on the program, I can foresee an 'All RV-12' clinic happening. It might be really small at first though with a lot of newbs so weighting it on the more experienced side will be a requirement. At first, there is going to be a lot of 2 ship coached training until some of those guys are cleared 2 ship solo, then eventually 4 ship solo. We'll use the same FFI progression process as is currently used in the FFI clinic setting. It works well. Standardized instruction, signals, procedures...

Operational parameters are still undergoing review as we move forward. Newer formation pilots will want to keep pitch and bank angles fairly tame anyway. The limits at this point I would say would be 30* bank and 15* pitch to start with. Rotax RPM (5500), Airspeed (120), and G (4.0 Positive) will be the ultimate factoring limits for maneuvering (probably in that order).

I don't see any issues with Extended Trail, Lead/Lag/Pursuit maneuvering as those are fundamental skills all formation pilots need to know. It will happen in slow motion though comparative to the short wing aircraft. All good; Go slow; Be safe; Have fun! Can't wait to see the 1st RV-12 4-ship Overhead...:D
 
Hey Poprivet, get it right. If I gotta be stuck with this call sign, its LAWBREAKER, one word, not two! :D

Joe, thanks for the input on extended trail. I've never racked Dave's RV-12 around so I had just planned on approaching it slowly with them. Concentrate on rejoins from trail and leave the serious manuevering for the second or third flight. Right now I just want to get them comfortable in the very basics as they are starting from scratch.

I'd love to see you guys do an official mini-clinic north of the Carolina's. Talking to Dave, there may be enough -12s in our area with the interest. Our main issue up here is scheduling; Hard to get enough formation qualed guys together on a given weekend to put a body in every 12 as a coach. So its going to go slow for us at first, just two birds at a time. With a real clinic, these guys would really benefit from a solid weekend or even a solid day of multiple flights. I agree, the clinic environment is outstanding for fast tracking these skills. Hope to see you all put something together soon!
 
Someone might want to check with Rotax about using "geared" engi in formation. New formation pilots tend to jockey the throttle quite a bit, NOT what a gear box likes. Be safe!

Not an issue according to the Rotax Service centers I just talked to. ;)

I have 340 hours flying a -12, and 1200 hours flying behind 912's. Needless to say I used the throttle a lot. ;) I have serviced several 912 gear boxes and never found a problem. back before the clutches were installed. Back when the 100hp version was brand new! BTW, I have never even heard of a gear box failure.



Yes! I am POed I sold my -12, I would have signed up for formation class!:mad:
 
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:)

Training with Lawbreaker, great flying but intense. Can?t wait for the next training session with the guys.

2013-11-16 formation 6.jpg


2013-11-16 formation 1.jpg
 
OK today I was the only RV12 and total noob at the Pine BLUFF (KPBF) Formation Clinic run by Falcon. Great day! Having done a lot of reading as prep (FAST and FFI), I was privilaged to ride along as a passenger with Beegee. (FYI - the leader of the 49-ship KC formation.) That was a GREAT introduction in understanding the sight lines and procedures. And Close Trail as #3 was ummmm... ah... well, ah... I won't need coffee for a week...

So as you experienced formates know, there is a lot of throttle movement involved. Now, in the 12, the throttle springs do what seems to me to be two tasks. A: Go to full throttle in case of a cable break, and B: keep the two throttle cables "even" as they move back and forth. Many have complained about the springs being too strong, and I am much happier with the slightly weaker springs I sourced from this forum. But that is for regular flying...

Seeing the degree of continuous throttle adjustment, I am wondering if even weaker ones are needed. the friction lock will need to be left looser than normal, and if the throttle slips in your hand and goes full at the wrong time, that will not be good! Those of you that have already begun formation work in the 12 - your opinion? Are you running the stock springs? Weaker ones? Even weaker ones? No springs at all?

I am looking forward to at least one more -12 that could frequently travel to the Little Rock AR area to show interest. The Mid-South RVATOR group based at KORK has several qualified formation pilots that expressed willingness to ride as safety pilot and teachers, to get us to the point of safe solo work. They fly almost every weekend. Great guys!

Bill H. N412BR "Sweetie" billhollifield AT iname DOT com
 
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Count me in!

If you are keeping a list of folks who might be interested in a formation clinic in the NE, please add my name.

John Peck
 
RV-12 Sight Line Targets
RV-12%2520Sight%2520Lines%25202.jpg
I'd like to offer a slight modification. The sight lines look pretty good, but just a tad "sucked" in this photo. It looks like if you lined up the two front points vertically you'd be good, and that would put the front corner of the horizontal stab right below the mid-chord of the vertical stabilizer... But it's hard to tell with the two dark paints, so how do you see it? Well, our RV team has a similar problem. We use the hinge line on the elevator aligned with the corner where the front of the vertical stabilizer meets the fuselage... That works on the 4, 6, 7, 8, and Rocket. The hinge line isn't visible due to the counterbalance, so we have placed diamonds on the outside of the elevators... About 1.5" tall and 1" wide, in a contrasting colour that matches the paint scheme of the airplane in question. You could use something similar on the -12, maybe put the diamond on the vertical stab though?

Also, we fly with the vertical position set by splitting the trailing edge of the wing... You should be able to see as much wing above the trailing edge as below it. I think this is FAST standard for low-wing planes. It's a little closer vertically than you were, but you need that to be sure that when you drift out of position a little bit you won't miss a hand signal from lead. If you drift down from the position in your photo, you don't have a lot of margin.
 
Bill

I agree with you regarding the throttle. See my #10 post on this thread on the McFarland throttle and springs.

John

We have 3 RV12 that will be going through clinics with the guys on the East Coast. We will be flying out of KPTW. (clinic tbd)

Email me when you get a chance. You got a place to say if you come down and join us.
 
Add me to the list

Add me to the list of RV12 owners who would love some formation training. Robin Riley, Aiken SC N872RM. RV12 SLSA serial number 12014. 803-226-9536.
Thank you, Robin
 
Since I have access to flying them, I took it up on myself to develop this information in response to this VAF thread on using RV-12's for formation and at formation clinics. While not too many folks are using -12's for that yet, you may begin to see an increased interest in them for formation use. Eventually some, if not most of us, will end up going the LSA route based on aging and medical qualifications so better to be ahead of the curve when approached at clinics :D

To date, I have about 100 hours in the model and have flown it in a lot of formation with camera aircraft as well as other 'chase' aircraft. It is quite capable and has a max roll rate that approaches what most of short wing RV's (3,4,6,7,8) will do. It does not, however, lend itself to being flown in a mixed formation with those aircraft models. Bottom line, it is quite compatible with it's own kind; other RV-12's in a formation flight. The main differences are cruise speed, weight, and wing loading. With 120 KTS as the max cruise speed it will certainly not keep up with the other models unless they are throttled significantly back. The aircraft wing loading is comparatively light and will move around in the lightest of turbulence. Empty weights are typically around 730-750 lbs depending on additional equipment installed which is about 200-400 lbs lighter than the short wing models.

At this point I don't know any group that has used the RV-12 in a 4-ship formation (although they might already be doing just that). Based on my experience with the aircraft, I think it could be easily flown in this configuration with trained pilots. You have probably seen the young adults flying the Breezers at Sun n Fun and at OSH. They did a great job with a similar aircraft model, so it would stand to reason that the RV-12 can be operated in a similar way.

I have developed some sight reference lines that work pretty well and are easily seen. (See attached Formation Spacing graphics). The primary sight line is the Outboard Flaperon Hinge Bracket superimposed on the Prop Spinner, much the same as the short wing RV's. The secondary sightline is slightly different from what we use now. It's the forward base of the Vertical Stab (specifically the VS-1204 attach screw line) lined up with the Forward Outboard Stabilator Corner (Leading Edge). This gives adequate wingtip clearance and a slightly stepped down configuration. (See Sight Lines graphic). While these pictures aren't exactly in position, you get the idea.

Formation Spacing graphic
RV-12%2520Formation%2520Spacing.jpg


RV-12 Sight Line Targets
RV-12%2520Sight%2520Lines%25202.jpg


Formation Model Adam Burch ;) Position shown slightly acute
RV-12%2520Sight%2520Lines%25201.jpg


Operating speeds should be around the 90-95KTS range which will give outside wingmen some power reserve. Since we have not done a 4-ship flight with them yet, the operating speeds are speculative at this time, but that range seems about right. I'm not sure what max bank angles this will allow until we actually get a flight of 4 in. The Slot, Trail, and Rejoin sight references should be very similar to the short wing RV's also.

So there you have it. Feel free to comment and add additional data as you see fit. I'll try to get further testing in when able so the information can be documented. This info has been forwarded on to Stu McCurdy and a few FFI Check Pilots for their input. The next steps would be to build an RV-12 Formation Syllabus for use in a clinic setting.

Flew three RV-12 Formation flights so far at The KC Formation Clinic 2014.



Climb out @ 75 KIAS worked great at reduced power. 70 KIAS was too steep of an angle. Last flight, we used 85 KIAS level flight power of 4,500 RPM @ 2,400 MSL. Pitch-out to downwind speed 75 KIAS (65 was too slow), 65 KIAS base, and 60 KIAS final. Rejoin bank angle of 25 degrees worked well.

Having lots of fun exploring RV-12 formation.

KC Formation clinic on rain / lighting hold 14:30 CDT.
 
Formation Flying

I would be very, very slow to fly in formation with any other RV12s with the current throttle problem. You will need that throttle to not creep and to be much more responsive if you fly in formation. Don't do it!

EBB:-(
 
I would be very, very slow to fly in formation with any other RV12s with the current throttle problem. You will need that throttle to not creep and to be much more responsive if you fly in formation. Don't do it!

EBB:-(

:confused:

Since your hand rarely if ever leaves the throttle why would this be a problem? I have 250 hours in a -12 and the throttle as designed was never an issue.

YMMV.
 
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More later, just got home from the clinic in my RV12. I have The stock vans throttle, with the weaker springs sourced from a different thread on this forum, and it works out fine. You adjust the friction knob to be on a moderate amount, not a large amount, and you can freely make rapid throttle changes and it won't try to pull out of your hand.

Non-RV-12 pilots trying it did not like it but they tended to loosen the friction knob all the way then fight the throttle springs.

I may consider even weaker springs for use when formate-ing, or try none at all for that task. I think the normal engine vibration will keep the throttles "even" without the springs. (Some say that is one of the reasons for them.)

BTW the replacement springs are a Good Idea. Really improves the 12 compared to the originals.
 
RV12 FORMATION CLINIC REPORT June 29 2014

This weekend was the KC Flight formation clinic and 3 of us RV12s showed up to learn. Formation flight has had much written about it so I am concentrating on the RV12 aspect.

Boy, it was challenging and fun! Weather was a bit of a factor. Arriving Friday about noon, we were able to get in a flight that combined familiarization of our safety pilots with the RV12, and a basic introduction to formation techniques. All new folks also do a ride-along with the experienced to see what's going on without the stress of being the pilot. I had done that several times back in November '13 at the Pine Bluff clinic.

Friday also included a thorough briefing on the basics of formation and safety.

On Saturday, we got in two RV1formation training flights. We did this in a 3 ship formation. Weather became a factor in the afternoon and precluded a 3rd and 4th.

It was hoped to do 3 flights on Sunday, (including a big ~14 ship formation) plus several attendees also come to these clinics to get their certification checkouts, having practiced back at their bases. So there was a slight shortage of pilots able to act as safety pilots for us not-yet-qualified-to-fly-formation-without-a-safety-pilot RV12 folks. We 12's rode along as passengers for the 1st Sunday sortie. (Again, this is VERY educational and worth the price of admission by itself!) Then weather shut us down for any further work. Plus travel back to home base on Sunday meant some had to leave ahead of another incoming storm.

The KC Flight folks putting on the event did a super job with logistics and food. Had a van and a stretch limo (!) to shuttle non-locals to and from the hotel. Best $50 event you will ever attend. Plus, just hanging around the airport and talking RVs makes for a great weekend.

Now a revised copy of the FFI formation guide was written with an RV12 appendix and we used that. It was an unproven draft, so we have some recommended tweaks to it.

1. In flight, using a RV2 stabilator flutter as a signal is not very noticeable. The all-flying tail on the 12 doesn't move much. The same is true for the flaperons. So an exaggerated wing rock seems needed. Likely, -12 formation work might use more radio than is "standard" - but hey, the object is to have fun.

2. A couple of pounds of forward trim is a good idea.

3. The RV12 is very maneuverable and has no control issues for formation.

4. We only had a three ship. One issue with maneuvering flight is power reserve without exceeding 5500 rpm. 90-95 knots was too fast. While 85 knots was working for a 3 ship, it was thought that adding a #4 might prove taxing, so 80 might be necessary,

5. Overhead patterns for landing were fun and not a problem, but downwind-base- final speeds of (knots) 75, 65, 60 worked out better than the lower numbers in the FFI draft version 2.6.

6. The flaperon hinge-to-spinner line worked fine. But there is some thought to using a vertical line defined from where the front of the vertical stabilizer touches the fuselage, rather than the vertical screw line several inches aft of that. Or, maybe a trailing-edge-of-stabilator-to-back-of-rudder line. We ran out of time to test a different line in flight.

7. Assuming that line is not changed, place a foot long vertical strip of contrasting color tape on the VS leading edge fairing screw line, both sides. That line can be very hard to see. On my rudder (white in that spot) black electrical tape worked well, it is available in other colors. On the flat vertical-face ends of the outboard stabilator tips, also use color tape on the front couple of inches - the outboard ribs defining the leading edge. That is to better see the stabilizer tip relative to the taped line. Some paint schemes have the stabilator tip color identical to the fuselage paint, difficult to detect. Better contrast is needed. So from the wingman viewpoint the stabilizer tip would look like a rounded pointer.

8. Other RV types could easily LEAD qualified RV12s in practice training outside of the clinics. Just throttle back. One issue might be potential overheating of the non-RV12 plane at prolonged speeds of 80-85 knots. (Not a problem for the -12) Comments?

9. Throttle springs! You will be moving the throttle constantly, often fairly large power changes. I have the stock Van's throttle, BUT with the weaker springs sourced from a different thread on this forum, and it works out fine. You adjust the friction knob to be in effect a moderate amount, not a large amount, and you can freely make rapid throttle changes and it won't try to pull out of your hand. You do not want it loosened all of the way!

I may consider even weaker springs for use when formate-ing, or try none at all for that task. I think the normal engine vibration will keep the throttles "even" without the springs. (Some say that is ONE of the reasons for them. Comments? Several like the McFarlane's vernier throttle but I would like to hear from someone that uses it in formation. True vernier throttles are frowned upon for formation, but I think the McFarlane's is of a different type for which the objections might not be relevant.)

In summary - this is fun, challenging, and we need MORE 12s to make it even more fun!

Bill H.
RV12 N412BR "Sweetie" (the plane's name, not my call sign! Thinking "Robot" would be good for that.)
 
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Bill my comments in Red. I have been training with a few guys on the east coast. Scott was my safety pilot and I have had some time off of another RV12, but most training is off of his RV 8, usually #1 and I am #2

1. In flight, using a RV2 stabilator flutter as a signal is not very noticeable. The all-flying tail on the 12 doesn't move much. The same is true for the flaperons. So an exaggerated wing rock seems needed. Likely, -12 formation work might use more radio than is "standard" - but hey, the object is to have fun. I agree

2. A couple of pounds of forward trim is a good idea. Scott and I discussed this today and it does help

3. The RV12 is very maneuverable and has no control issues for formation. I agree if keeping it in the envelope in the new manual

4. We only had a three ship. One issue with maneuvering flight is power reserve without exceeding 5500 rpm. 90-95 knots was too fast. While 85 knots was working for a 3 ship, it was thought that adding a #4 might prove taxing, so 80 might be necessary, For a two ship I found that 85 - 90 is ok

5. Overhead patterns for landing were fun and not a problem, but downwind-base- final speeds of (knots) 75, 65, 60 worked out better than the lower numbers in the FFI draft version 2.6. I agree and today with an overhead break when I flew off of Scott's RV8 today, I was doing 100 kts then break on 2, I did 80kt, 65kt, and 60kt with nice separation

8. Other RV types could easily LEAD qualified RV12s in practice training outside of the clinics. Just throttle back. One issue might be potential overheating at prolonged speeds of 80-85 knots. Comments? I'm #2 off of Scott's RV8 for no more than 30 min at 90-100 and that seams good. But I like 85 - 90 with another RV12.

9. Throttle springs! You will be moving the throttle constantly, often fairly large power changes. I have the stock Van's throttle, BUT with the weaker springs sourced from a different thread on this forum, and it works out fine. You adjust the friction knob to be in effect a moderate amount, not a large amount, and you can freely make rapid throttle changes and it won't try to pull out of your hand. You do not want it loosened all of the way!

I may consider even weaker springs for use when formate-ing, or try none at all for that task. I think the normal engine vibration will keep the throttles "even" without the springs. (Some say that is ONE of the reasons for them. Comments? Several like the McFarlane's vernier throttle but I would like to hear from someone that uses it in formation. True vernier throttles are frowned upon for formation, but I think the McFarlane's is of a different type for which the objections might not be relevant.) Bill recommend the vernier throttle for the Rotax, it does not have the push button lock and is very smooth to use. I have had one from Day 1 of her first flight.

Bill Nice write up and glad you had a good time. I wish I could have been there :(
 
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For those RV12 drivers that might be interested in a clinic near you. More input.

- The KC Flight group is EAA culture to the core. Your need for education, entertainment and eating is the rule. Instantly inclusive!
- The nature of the game requires complete honesty, thick skin and humility. You will be called out on your flying (and for anything you do that can get a laugh!). There is no time allocated in formation flying for a pity party. It is extremely important to know the people you are flying that close to.
- The throttle spring is a personal issue. Four or five safety pilots flew the RV12 in fingertip formation immediately. As "Detour" mentioned earlier, you are constantly making lots of small changes so if you can adjust the friction to your satisfaction its fine. Of all the things going through your mind during this endeavor, the throttle spring is not even on the radar.
- I wouldn't try this at home. I would (and you must) practice it at home with another clinic attendee. There is way too much already discovered knowledge to absorb. It would take you weeks and months of trial and error (and paint) to re-invent this wheel. If an RV formation clinic offers you help, jump on it.
- The briefing/debriefing is SO important. All of the "rules" are set in stone before you fly and each broken rule is dismembered when you return. Its amazing how everyone remembers each and every moment of the flight. They don't dwell on it during but it is retained.
- Everyone's learning curve is different. Bill H. for instance picked it up quicker than I did and will probably solo soon. That doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means everyone learns different things at a different pace.
- Is it scary? Yes! For you and the safety pilot. Regardless, your safety pilot will keep harassing you to "get closer", "move in" etc. You will be saying, "No way," "I'm a sissy," "Mom!" You have to get past that and just do it.
- The purpose behind the adventure is discussed often. It ranges from "chicks dig it" to the thrill of a 50 ship formation. At the core, it is a challenge. Everyone involved seems to find value in the effort required to be proficient in something this difficult. I was impressed, humbled and exhausted. What fun!
 
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RV12 Formation

For those RV12 drivers that might be interested in a clinic near you. More input.

- The KC Flight group is EAA culture to the core. Your need for education, entertainment and eating is the rule. Instantly inclusive!
- The nature of the game requires complete honesty, thick skin and humility. You will be called out on your flying (and for anything you do that can get a laugh!). There is no time allocated in formation flying for a pity party. It is extremely important to know the people you are flying that close to.
- The throttle spring is a personal issue. Four or five safety pilots flew the RV12 in fingertip formation immediately. As "Detour" mentioned earlier, you are constantly making lots of small changes so if you can adjust the friction to your satisfaction its fine. Of all the things going through your mind during this endeavor, the throttle spring is not even on the radar.
- I wouldn't try this at home. I would (and you must) practice it at home with another clinic attendee. There is way too much already discovered knowledge to absorb. It would take you weeks and months of trial and error (and paint) to re-invent this wheel. If an RV formation clinic offers you help, jump on it.
- The briefing/debriefing is SO important. All of the "rules" are set in stone before you fly and each broken rule is dismembered when you return. Its amazing how everyone remembers each and every moment of the flight. They don't dwell on it during but it is retained.
- Everyone's learning curve is different. Bill H. for instance picked it up quicker than I did and will probably solo soon. That doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means everyone learns different things at a different pace.
- Is it scary? Yes! For you and the safety pilot. Regardless, your safety pilot will keep harassing you to "get closer", "move in" etc. You will be saying, "No way," "I'm a sissy," "Mom!" You have to get past that and just do it.
- The purpose behind the adventure is discussed often. It ranges from "chicks dig it" to the thrill of a 50 ship formation. At the core, it is a challenge. Everyone involved seems to find value in the effort required to be proficient in something this difficult. I was impressed, humbled and exhausted. What fun!

First, thanks to Condor for the travel, time and personal dedication to the 12's !!

I included the full quote since it bears re-reading.
Truly glad to have the 12's show such great interest at the clinic. And, I was so looking forward for the ride-along on the second go Sunday, but the weather precluded it. You guys are at the ground floor of building your own RV12 formation culture. Take baby steps. Document your changes for standardization. Be safe. Have fun.
Thanks for coming and you all better come back next year and bring more 12s with you.

Boomer
 
It's great to hear all of the feedback and new experiences of the RV-12 and Safety Pilots in a formation clinic setting. As Boomer said "You guys are at the ground floor of building your own RV-12 formation culture." We are breaking new ground here and it's important to remember to stay involved with formation flying as it's a perishable skill and we're still developing this program. The -12 is a different enough platform with it's own set of idiosyncrasies but it is equal amongst it's own. And that's where we will keep it.

With pilots sweating the 3rd Class Medical issue, the -12 now simply breathes new life into the formation community for those dealing with that issue. I think that is the most valuable benefit to come out of this... Enjoy! :D
 
The formation clinic was all I hoped it would be! Short on time on time so enjoy the photos:

The briefings were very thorough. It was confidence building to see even the experienced flyers going through even the most basic fundamentals in order that nothing would be missed or overlooked.
1b695fc5-d63a-4583-868b-3afc0d981f05.jpg


I landed, introduced myself and within the hour I was flying with Bill Gill in his RV7.
image-1.jpg


Bill "Robot" in "Sweetie"
image-3.jpg


Pete, (Peterk)
image-2.jpg
 
Pete - thanks for the kind words but I don't think I picked it up faster than anyone else! I had the benefit of some ride-alongs at the November Pine Bluff clinic. Those are really key for letting one begin to understand what is going on without the pressure of being the pilot! It really helps with the "drinking from a fire hose" phenomenon. In fact, a ride along is so much fun and so educational that lots more folks with any type of RV should attend a clinic just for that. (But READ THE MATERIALS!.)

Now, the organizers might wince at that, because they have to try to schedule flights with safety pilots for us newbies, but perhaps you could register as "non-flying" or something...
 
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"Frogman is in"

Great thread, particularly the emphasis on good training and proper attitude.
All of the developing parameters: performance envelope, position indicators are coming together nicely. I would think the limited performance envelope would be a consideration for flights of mixed RV types, BUT the 12 can do well with a large number of other similar power to weight ratio airplanes. The limiting factor will be the limited available excess power for #4 and can be mitigated by the suggested moderate speeds and power settings used by the leader.

I flew a simple formation demo as a wingman for a Stinson and it worked well. With about a 5 sec takeoff spacing we were in position after about 30 degrees of leads turn out of traffic.

As others have noted, if you get the bug and have the right attitude it is some of the most fun you will have in an RV. Flying on a cross country with 12 or more of your closest RV formation buds and landing at OSH is satisfying to say the least.

Oh, the handle thing; common practice says you have no input in that. Your formation partners and circumstances will dictate what your handle becomes.
We had the distinct honor several years ago of submitting the winning handle suggestion for Team Aeordynamics/Team RV leader Mike Stewart: "Kahuna"

An often heard comment on lead training flights, "Lead sucks"


RV12 formation?
"Frogman" is in, just say when and where.

Dick Sipp
RV-4 Sold
RV-10 540 hours
RV-12 35 hours (built for owner)
FFI Wingman, Team RV wingman retired (moved away & -10 kicked out) Falcon Flight guest wingman @ OSH
180 hours or so in formation and cherished every minute.
 
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