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Fuel Selector: Why Only Left or Right and no BOTH?

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Presumably

As a DAR, I REFUSED to issue the Special Airworthiness Certificate to an RV-6A till the builder changed the fuel selector to one that did NOT have a both.

This was a couple of years ago. As a DAR, I am still NOT going to issue the Special Airworthiness Certificate to a LOW wing RV that has a both position.

Maybe you can get someone else to do it for you but all you will get from me is a DENIAL LETTER.


You would not issue a denial letter if the fuel pumps were in the wingroots?

In that case it is (hydraulically speaking) perfectly acceptable to have a BOTH position on the selector..In fact with this system you don't even need (or want) a selector.

Just wondering if the "Both" position was a matter of your policy or do you take the system design into account?

Frank
 
Moved posts

All--

I moved some posts from the "RV-8/8A Status" thread into this thread. If things seem to be slightly out of order, or discussed twice, that is why. These moved posts belonged in this thread, not the other.

Sorry for the possible confusion--

Joe
 
You would not issue a denial letter if the fuel pumps were in the wingroots?

In that case it is (hydraulically speaking) perfectly acceptable to have a BOTH position on the selector..In fact with this system you don't even need (or want) a selector.

Just wondering if the "Both" position was a matter of your policy or do you take the system design into account?

I can think of several reasons that I'd want at least an "off selector". A broken fitting or fuel line from the cockpit forward. Or some type of crash scenario, where I'm at least hoping to limit the fuel flow from the wings. Example: Upside down....... trapped in the cockpit, and fuel dripping.

If I know I'm about to hit the earth in one form or another, I like the option of fuel "off", as well as the master switch. It won't always save the day, but it can help.

BTW--- I do have pliers on board to crimp a fuel line if required (and possible).

L.Adamson
 
George Bernard Shaw

Yep, I'm familiar with the Andair web site and their spelling of simultaneously is the British way. Those silly Brits. : ) They act like they invented the language.

Stan Sutterfield

You say tomato and I say tomato ...... ???

Aluminium ...........

Colour ...........

George Bernard Shaw's observation that the US and the UK are "two nations divided by a common language" is perhaps more accurate than many might suspect.

Vive la difference

http://chris-linfoot.net/plinks/CWLT-5U4C36
 
DONT DO IT!!!!!!

Do NOT install a 175 hp O-320. This engine is NOT designed to handle this HP and it is UNSAFE. PERIOD. It will create a extra bunch of paperwork for your inspector, and extra work for your NTSB investigator and insurance guy when you blow off a jug.

Do NOT install unsafe plastic propellers that are not certified. This will cause extra paperwork for your Inspector and you will not get a 25 hour fly-off. The vibration will cause your wings will come off, the left main will fold around during long cross countries, leaving tread marks on the fuse, and your girl friend will leave you for a guy who flies a Beechcraft.

Wait a minute? These are experimental airplanes right? oops.. Sorry.

Never mind. :D


Postings that say: "Do this or that because I say so" are not helpful, and only extend superstitious behavior. Postings that say "Here is why..." and give us credible citations prevent us from doing stupid things.

Dkb





Do NOT install a selector valve with a "both" position in a standard RV fuel system. PERIOD.
You will just create a lot of extra paperwork for your inspector (short term) and the NTSB (not so short term).
 
p

I can think of several reasons that I'd want at least an "off selector". A broken fitting or fuel line from the cockpit forward. Or some type of crash scenario, where I'm at least hoping to limit the fuel flow from the wings. Example: Upside down....... trapped in the cockpit, and fuel dripping.

If I know I'm about to hit the earth in one form or another, I like the option of fuel "off", as well as the master switch. It won't always save the day, but it can help.

BTW--- I do have pliers on board to crimp a fuel line if required (and possible).

L.Adamson

Yup this design has an "Off" valve..in fact the Vans selector can be plumbed as a simple on/off valve and that is how mine is in fact.

Frank
 
Yep, I'm familiar with the Andair web site and their spelling of simultaneously is the British way. Those silly Brits. : ) They act like they invented the language.

<With "Both" selected, a single failure (tank leak) = you lose all fuel (the R tank fuel exits through the valve and out the Left).>

A good theory, but not the way it actually happens according to my ground tests. The fuel from the right tank does not pass through the fuel selector valve and into the left tank. Rather, with one tank dry (unnoticed leak), the engine begins drawing air from the empty tank and falters or quits. Select the tank with fuel in it and restart - just like a L-R selector. Tell you what, I'll do an airborne test at 5k' over an airport and run one tank dry with the Both position selected. Then we'll know for sure how it functions.

<Low Wing + Both is not unknown... the Bulldog has it, but uses the NRVs above. Are you sure you have these fitted?>

I am sure I do not have the check valves fitted. They are not needed. The fuel in one tank is not transferring to the other tank. The tanks are feeding evenly (ops checked airborne). If one tank runs dry, the fuel will not transfer from the full tank to the empty tank - rather the fuel pump will draw air from the empty tank (ops checked on ground). I'll do an ops check airborne and report back.

Stan Sutterfield

Just for the record there is no difference between the British and American spelling of simultaneously. Andair just need a better editor for their web site.

And as a Brit living for many years in America I started saying "skedule" after a colleague asked why I didn't send the children to "shule". When in Rome.....:D

Oh and I stuck to the plans and it still took me nine years to finish but boy does it fly well :)

Jim Sharkey
RV6 - Phase 1
 
The old radial-engine Air Tractor 301 feeds from both tanks at the same time, with only an on-off valve, but never feeds quite evenly from both and will suck one tank dry before the other, especially if you've been flying it constantly in turns of one direction too (like what's normally done in spray operations). It's a restricted category aircraft however, and the pilot is expected to keep in mind his fuel level imbalance and not let it progress into a fuel starvation incident. It also only has one fuel gauge, and a toggle switch to select whether you're monitoring the left or right tank. Since one tank always reads lower than the other, the AT301 pilots usually always keep the gauge switch set to the lowest reading tank
 
...Postings that say: "Do this or that because I say so" are not helpful, and only extend superstitious behavior. Postings that say "Here is why..." and give us credible citations prevent us from doing stupid things.

Dkb


Exactly!

I don't care how many RV's you have knocked together, how many posts you have, or all the letters in the alphabet in your signature line, an unsupported lecture is of ZERO value in an information forum. This is a dicussion board, not an online lecture. While there may be some people looking for ADVICE concerning certain aspects of RV building, a topic such as fuel management certainly falls in the "general" category, and that means "discussion".

It's my contention that a "BOTH" selector is not dangerous in level, high altitude cruise flight. Somebody explain (in technical terms) why this will result in certain death.
 
I've heard a number of times that Cessnas have a both selector because the tanks are interconected with a tube and thus are technically a single tank. Does anyone know if that is why they have "both" as a fuel selection?

I do know that in my Luscombe, which is a high wing with tanks pressurized by airflow, flying with both tanks on can cause one side to squirt fuel out of the cap thru that vent if the rudder is not centered. Obviously not going to be an issue in the RV-9 that I am building.

And finally, had to trot off to the salt mines this morning; however I started reading up on fuel selectors in Part 23 of the FARs and I believe that under these regs you have to locate the off selector in a location that ensures that no more than one quart of fuel is forward of the firewall once selected. Can someone confirm that?
 
If there was room to install a header tank in the bottom of an RV, then I don't think anyone would have an issue with this topic. But, there is not room and fuel starvation issues are the number one cause of accidents for homebuilts.

Bill,

I agree with you on most of what you said, however I have a pet peeve with Truthiness. While the #1 cause of accidents for homebuilts is mechanical failures, only 20% of these (4% in total) are fuel system related. This would put fuel system mechanical failures below maneuvering flight as a cause of accidents.

From the 2008 NAAL Report.

Accidents for all of GA:
Landing 30%
Mechanical 15% (of this, 20% represents mechanical Fuel systems issues)
Other 12%
Takeoff 11%
Maneuvering 6%
Fuel Management 6%

For Armature Build:
Mechanical 20% (of this, 20% represents mechanical Fuel systems issues)
Other 20%
Landing 19%
Takeoff 11%
Maneuvering 9%
Fuel mis-management 6%

Bottom line
Non Gravity feed fuel system (most low wing) - BOTH = BAD
Gravity feed fuel system (most high wing) - BOTH is OK
.
 
It's my contention that a "BOTH" selector is not dangerous in level, high altitude cruise flight. Somebody explain (in technical terms) why this will result in certain death.

Michael, please note the narrow condition you specify, level high altitude cruise. I will agree that a "both" tank selection in a low-wing aircraft is not overly dangerous under the given conditions. In a worst case, an unported tank stops the engine. With plenty of altitude a pilot has time to select left and right as necessary, and most likely get a re-start.

Now, a question for you in return. Would you operate using a "Both" position at low altitude and low fuel levels, in particular during approach and departure?
 
Not quite "certain death" but..

... Somebody explain (in technical terms) why this will result in certain death.

something close.

Okay, good question, Michael. On our airplanes the belly is even with the wings so there's no good place for a header tank like the one in my Air Tractor. If you have "Both" selected in an RV and you arrive with low fuel after a 3 hour cross-country, your fuel level in both tanks will be maybe an inch deep.
In rough air or a slip, the fuel will move away from the fuel supply fitting of the low wing and unport that side (suck air) and your engine will die...could be short final or not and you may or may not make the runway....we didn't say "certain death" ensues but now your pucker factor will hit around 10.

What I can't understand is why amateurs want to do things that engineers like Van and others recommend them NOT doing.

In the Cessna Agwagons and my Air Tractor, there is a header tank in the belly that stays full (even if one tank's empty) and the fuel is supplied by the header tank and they only have "Both" and "Off" fuel selector positions and will only run out of fuel when both tanks are empty. We don't have that luxury with our RV's and unless you build a header tank under the belly...lower than the bottom wing skins, you could unport the fuel and suck air..

Regards,
 
Michael, please note the narrow condition you specify, level high altitude cruise. ..Now, a question for you in return. Would you operate using a "Both" position at low altitude and low fuel levels, in particular during approach and departure?


Absolutely not! "Both" is a tool to be used for cross country flight, and for me, that is 7500 to 8500 feet at a minimum. Part of my let down checklist is to perfom the GUMP check, and that means the fullest tank. In theory, on a long flight, I would only have to touch the fuel selector once, which is a good thing. Less is more when it comes to messing with the fuel selector in flight.
 
Absolutely not! "Both" is a tool to be used for cross country flight, and for me, that is 7500 to 8500 feet at a minimum. Part of my let down checklist is to perfom the GUMP check, and that means the fullest tank. In theory, on a long flight, I would only have to touch the fuel selector once, which is a good thing. Less is more when it comes to messing with the fuel selector in flight.

This was my train of thought when I ordered. Having never flown in a low wing before, never mind an RV, what is the porceedure? Seems to me that if flying a left hand pattern you use the right tank to compensate for the banks to prevent unporting? Either case, I ammended my order for the FS20X3T valve as recommended.
 
This was my train of thought when I ordered. Having never flown in a low wing before, never mind an RV, what is the porceedure? Seems to me that if flying a left hand pattern you use the right tank to compensate for the banks to prevent unporting? Either case, I ammended my order for the FS20X3T valve as recommended.

Very common misconception. This is only needed if you're a pilot that doesn't use the rudder pedals. If the ball is centered, the fuel doesn't know you're turning.
 
Oh, I'm gonna get it now!

Ok, let's throw some more avgas on the fire :)

On this thread so far we've seen the full spectrum of admonitions from (paraphrase) "never ever deviate from the original design" to "it's experimental, so do whatever you want". I disagree with both. I think it is possible to improve on the original design (and that's true generally, not just about the fuel system), but it would be foolhardy to make substantial changes without a thorough understanding and rigorous engineering analysis and testing. Having said that, many of us builders are quite capable of meeting those requirements.

Now, here's an example of a potential improvement to the standard RV fuel system. But first the usual disclaimer: I am NOT advocating that anyone do this on their aircraft, and in fact I'm not doing this either on my aircraft (at least not initially).

Ok, down to business. While I don't see L/R/OFF fuel management as a major burden, it does have a few issues:
- Adds to the pilot's task loading.
- Prone to pilot error (whether by general carelessness or even the occasional error by a thorough pilot).
- Creates an appreciable left-right imbalance even if switching tanks relatively frequently, like every 30 minutes.
- Creates long-term left-right imbalance and/or left-right fuel remaining uncertainty due to different fuel burns in different phases of flight.

One possible solution is to keep the existing fuel system architecture, but automate the left-right switching under computer control, i.e. an "auto-switch" selection. Since this no longer burdens the pilot, the switching could happen much more frequently, say every 3 minutes instead of 30 minutes. That effectively eliminates the left-right imbalance issues, practically as if we were drawing fuel from "both". There would also be manual settings for "left only", "right only", and "off" for emergency situations and optionally for critical phases of flight. Now, since fuel switching is now under computer control, the computer could even detect and handle certain fault conditions. Like say if switching to a particular tank results in a fuel pressure drop to below a critical threshold, then the computer will switch back immediately to the other tank and stay there (and alert the pilot via an annunciator or EFIS message). There are all kinds of automated safety features that can be built in once you have electronics in the loop. Yes, I know, that makes the fuel system electrically dependent. But many new aircraft power plants are electrically dependent anyway, and it is not a problem if designed with sufficient safeguards, whether through electrical redundancy or mechanical/manual backups and overrides

Now, before the traditionalists unleash their fury on me for even suggesting such a thing, I'd like to point out that designs like this have been used successfully on high performance aircraft already. In fact, I believe Lancair is doing something along these lines on the Evolution. Ok, now you may begin to flog me if you wish. :D
 
Fullest tank

.... Seems to me that if flying a left hand pattern you use the right tank to compensate for the banks to prevent unporting? ....

To see what fuel does in your plane, take a small bucket and fill half-way with water. Then swing it around you in a circle, and you will note that the fuel stays level with the bucket, not level with the ground. This is why fuel also stays in the bottom of the tank when you do a loop.

In any event, for landing you should be on the "fullest" tank.
 
What I can't understand is why amateurs want to do things that engineers like Van and others recommend them NOT doing.

I can't speak for the "amateurs", but speaking from my professional experience as an engineer for a major aerospace company, an A&P, and a degree in Aircraft Maintenance Management, I can speculate... Van, like anyone producing a product, must take into consideration ALL users, and that means "the lowest common denominator" of pilot. As such, the risk of the "lowest common denominator" pilot unporting a tank while yanking and banking down low is HIGHER than the risk of fiddling with the tank selector several times per flight. This is not to say that fiddling with the selector several times each flight is without risk - far from it. Having said that, I am not the lowest common denominator pilot, therefore, the risk of ME unporting a tank and unable to manage the result is much LOWER than messing with the selector valve. To me, fiddling with the selector valve in flight is an invitation to unrecoverable engine stoppage, and I don't take it lightly. It's just one of "my things".
 
Another advantage of L/R for me

While in cruise in a low wing aircraft with a L/R fuel tank selector, I set the fuel tank selector to match the minute hand of the clock. If the minute hand is between 0 and 29 I put the fuel tank selector on Right, and if it's between 30 and 59 I put the fuel tank selector on Left.

The thing I personally like about this technique is that it reminds me regularly to think about my fuel. YMMV
 
Michael,

Let me put it this way. Some day you might wish to sell your plane. When the prospective buyer hires an A&P to inspect your plane he will (should) look over the fuel system. At that time he will turn to the buyer and explain that the airplane has a ?non-standard? fuel system and might just add, "You know, John Denver had a non-standard fuel system in the airplane that killed him."

There is a good chance that the buyer will run, not walk, away.

BTW, this is the same reason that I used aviation breakers and breaker-switches in my RV rather than ATO fuses. I feel that ATO fuses are a good alternative to breakers but I was worried about future resale.
 
Bill,

If we have moved from a technical/operational discussion to financial, then I will only offer this - "Resale" is pretty low on my list. In fact, for some of the very reasons you mention, there's a very good argument to part any homebuilt out before selling it as a complete aircraft.

And BTW, stupidity killed John Denver, not a non-standard fuel system. The fuel flow did exactly what he told it to do. Of course, I also think people, rather than guns, kill people...
 
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Absolutely not! "Both" is a tool to be used for cross country flight, and for me, that is 7500 to 8500 feet at a minimum. Part of my let down checklist is to perfom the GUMP check, and that means the fullest tank. In theory, on a long flight, I would only have to touch the fuel selector once, which is a good thing. Less is more when it comes to messing with the fuel selector in flight.

This is indeed all about operation with partial to minimum fuel.

At the end of that long flight there is no "fullest tank" if a "Both" system feeds evenly. Both tanks are equally depleted, when active fuel management (regular tank switching) would have retained a majority in one of them for the maneuvering phase.....to reduce the chance that single tank will unport.

A "Both" selection may feed evenly in Phase 1 testing, but there is no guarantee it will stay that way. Something as simple as a bug in a vent will cause uneven feeding. So ok, let's assume you actually have a "fullest tank". If constant aileron trim (no stick pressure) was your goal, what's the point in the Both setting?

The logical answer (as you note above) is to reduce the number of tank selector operating cycles. Seems odd, given a "both" position suggests the purchase of an aftermarket valve. Does your concern for fuel valve operation have an engineering basis?
 
To see what fuel does in your plane, take a small bucket and fill half-way with water. Then swing it around you in a circle, and you will note that the fuel stays level with the bucket, not level with the ground. This is why fuel also stays in the bottom of the tank when you do a loop.

In any event, for landing you should be on the "fullest" tank.

That makes a lot of sense.
 
This is indeed all about operation with partial to minimum fuel.

At the end of that long flight there is no "fullest tank" if a "Both" system feeds evenly. Both tanks are equally depleted, when active fuel management (regular tank switching) would have retained a majority in one of them for the maneuvering phase.....to reduce the chance that single tank will unport.

If you have managed to stretch a flight so far that a single tank will not support a landing, then there are far bigger things to worry about than the hardware selection. However, in the case of a "maximum range flight", somewhere, while still at cruise, you would select a discrete tank and run it dry, then land on the remaining tank, just as you would at the end of a max range flight with a "standard" RV setup.

A "Both" selection may feed evenly in Phase 1 testing, but there is no guarantee it will stay that way. Something as simple as a bug in a vent will cause uneven feeding. So ok, let's assume you actually have a "fullest tank". If constant aileron trim (no stick pressure) was your goal, what's the point in the Both setting?

The goal is to minimize the event cycles from a "known" condition (fuel is feeding) to an "unknown" condition (new tank). And BTW, every time you switch, it's a "new" tank...

The logical answer (as you note above) is to reduce the number of tank selector operating cycles. Seems odd, given a "both" position suggests the purchase of an aftermarket valve.

Not sure what you mean by "aftermarket"... The entire airplane is "aftermarket".

Does your concern for fuel valve operation have an engineering basis?

Yes. The engineering basis is the fact that any change of state (actuating the valve in flight) results in increased risk, therefore, no change = goodness. A valve/fuel system is less likely to fail if you don't have to touch it. The best fuel system is the one you don't have to mess with at all.

Also, as I have articulated before, understand that this change is less forgiving of errors and might actually INCREASE risk with some people, just as the change from a Cherokee to an RV will increase risk for some people. Once again, the "standard" system carries a certain level of mechanical risk, while the "Both" system carries a certain amount of operational risk... It is up to the individual pilot to decide which position reduces his "overall" risk posture given his training and ability to manage an aircraft. For me, that's leaving the valve alone as much as possible and managing the fuel supply for landing... But that's just me.
 
In following this thread, I'm wondering what the MTBF for manual fuel valves really is.
 
Solution?

I may have a "solution" ( he said with tongue firmly in cheek):

Move the wings up, make the RV a high-wing airplane, then the "both" position would be safe in all conditions! Simple:p:p
 
... in the case of a "maximum range flight", somewhere, while still at cruise, you would select a discrete tank and run it dry, then land on the remaining tank, just as you would at the end of a max range flight with a "standard" RV setup.

Very good. So in all cases, you would select right or left for "less than full" operations in the maneuvering phase? Put another way, you agree that maneuvering with low fuel and a "both" selection is a bad idea?

Not sure what you mean by "aftermarket"...

Andair would be the popular choice.

The engineering basis is the fact that any change of state (actuating the valve in flight) results in increased risk,....

An argument in absolutes....every action has some risk. You're an engineer. Can you quantify this risk?
 
Cessna says left or right for cruise..

Absolutely not! "Both" is a tool to be used for cross country flight, and for me, that is 7500 to 8500 feet at a minimum. Part of my let down checklist is to perfom the GUMP check, and that means the fullest tank. In theory, on a long flight, I would only have to touch the fuel selector once, which is a good thing. Less is more when it comes to messing with the fuel selector in flight.

Would you believe that Cessna recommends either left or right for cross country cruise. Unequal fuel flow from each tank may occur, if the wings are not maintained exactly level...... according to Cessna. And if you do get a heavy tank, thanks to the "both" selection, then Cessna says to turn the valve to the heavy tank.

Cessna high wings also have a header tank.

L.Adamson --- RV6A (flying)
 
I've heard a number of times that Cessnas have a both selector because the tanks are interconected with a tube and thus are technically a single tank. Does anyone know if that is why they have "both" as a fuel selection?

Cessna uses a header tank after the selector valve. In a different reply, I've stated that Cessna recommends left or right in cruise, because unequal flow may occur if the wings are not eactly level in cruise conditions.

L.Adamson --- RV6A (flying)
 
Maybe BOTH is the wrong term, how about Single ON.

While I may not be in agreement that a "BOTH" selector is the solution to the problem at hand--remember that Fuel mismanagement represents 6% of GA accidents. This is higher than the 4% due to mechanical fuel system failure. This being so, I encourage new thinking and appreciate the question being asked by Toobuilder. Clearly the 6% mismanagement accident rate represents room for improvement. Yes this can be improved with training, memory aids etc. But it is safe to say that a BOTH (or single Fuel ON position) represents less chance for mismanagement than an LEFT/RIGHT/OFF selector.

So maybe the question should not be "why not a BOTH" but "why not a single ON" position for non-gravity feed fuel system aircraft. There is very good reasons for a LEFT/RIGHT selector in a non-gravity feed fuel system. It is simple and effective but Murphy's law would require you switch tanks at the most in-opportune high workload time. IF someone can engineer a "Single ON" system that is reliable, fault tolerant and relatively inexpensive, then by all means do so. In the long run, many could benefit.
 
Cessna uses a header tank after the selector valve...
What Cessna is this you speak of? I have flown a lot of them and none had this tank. It was stated that Ag Wagons have a header tank and I don't know about the many Citations. At any rate, Cessna is a very broad term and I would like to know what is being talked about.
 
What Cessna is this you speak of? I have flown a lot of them and none had this tank. It was stated that Ag Wagons have a header tank and I don't know about the many Citations. At any rate, Cessna is a very broad term and I would like to know what is being talked about.

This is from a Cessna 172R manual sitting right in front of me. It has the fuel fuel system schematic. The header tank is called a "fuel reservor tank". The manual is 1996.

L.Adamson
 
This is from a Cessna 172R manual sitting right in front of me. It has the fuel fuel system schematic. The header tank is called a "fuel reservor tank". The manual is 1996.

L.Adamson
Thank you for the citation. I wonder exactly where it is and what it does.

The only 172 manual I have handy is for a 1968 model. "Fuel from each wing tank flows by gravity to a selector valve. Depending upon the setting of the selector valve, fuel from the left, right or both tanks flows through a fuel strainer and carburetor to the engine induction system."

Pretty simple on that model.
 
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IF someone can engineer a "Single ON" system that is reliable, fault tolerant and relatively inexpensive, then by all means do so. In the long run, many could benefit.

Indeed. See post number 68 for one possible design concept. And there are certainly others.

Note though that while that kind of solution could certainly help prevent some fuel mismanagement accidents, it won't prevent all. Especially not the case where the pilot exhausts all fuel in all tanks, which amazingly is still a significant fraction of the GA fuel mismanagement accidents. One of our (engineers') high goals is always to make a design more idiot-proof. But we also understand that the universe will still always produce a better idiot. Having said that, that's not a reason to not make improvements that can prevent at least some accidents.
 
Bill,

And BTW, stupidity killed John Denver, not a non-standard fuel system. The fuel flow did exactly what he told it to do. Of course, I also think people, rather than guns, kill people...

Not exactly. The fuel system was non-standard, because you had to reach over your back, and change tanks on the fuel selector with a pair of pliers. By taking his attention away from looking forward, he simply rolled into the water from a low altitude. The only "stupidy" was probably not adding more fuel.

Of course; if we want to call reaching over your back to switch tanks ...... standard, I suppose we can.... :eek:

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
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I can't speak for the "amateurs", but speaking from my professional experience as an engineer for a major aerospace company, an A&P, and a degree in Aircraft Maintenance Management, I can speculate... Van, like anyone producing a product, must take into consideration ALL users, and that means "the lowest common denominator" of pilot. As such, the risk of the "lowest common denominator" pilot unporting a tank while yanking and banking down low is HIGHER than the risk of fiddling with the tank selector several times per flight. This is not to say that fiddling with the selector several times each flight is without risk - far from it. Having said that, I am not the lowest common denominator pilot, therefore, the risk of ME unporting a tank and unable to manage the result is much LOWER than messing with the selector valve. To me, fiddling with the selector valve in flight is an invitation to unrecoverable engine stoppage, and I don't take it lightly. It's just one of "my things".

Problem is, if the tank is unported due to various reasons such as fuel shift through a "both selection" when wings are not exactly level, or uncoordinated flight; then you've got that problem as stated before. Now you have to "guess" if it's left or right, and possibly move the selector switch through two different settings, while waiting for an engine restart on each setting.
That's a lot of wasted time, that you may, or may not have.

Therefor, I beg to differ. I believe that Van has used the most sensible approach, rather than one that works for the "lowest common denominator", as you've suggested.

L.Adamson --- RV6A (flying)
 
Very good. So in all cases, you would select right or left for "less than full" operations in the maneuvering phase? Put another way, you agree that maneuvering with low fuel and a "both" selection is a bad idea?

At this point, without benefit of any flight test to determine the level of fuel that creates a hazard in uncoordinated flight, yes, as stated earlier in this thread.


Andair would be the popular choice.

...sure, whatever is available that meets requirements. Just curious, does Van supply the fuel valve? And if so, is it that horrible "brass cone" thing? A buddy had one of those on his -4, and I also had one on my Hiperbipe. Both would get so stiff that they were almost impossible to turn. I expected to twist the handle right off at every turn.



An argument in absolutes....every action has some risk.?

Right, so often the best action is NO action (just sit there and watch both tanks feed the engine). Fuel "On/Off" would be the ultimate...

You're an engineer. Can you quantify this risk?

No, I can not. ...nor do I intend to, because I'm not on a crusade to change your minds or say that Van did it wrong. However, we are getting into the realm of "personal" risk assessment, and we are all aware that that is borderline taboo among pilots. We might as well start a discussion about the wisdom of flying a single engine homebuilt at night, or IFR, or minimum runway length, or max crosswind, or a taildragger, acro, electronic ignition, alternate engine, etc... Many situations cause discomfort to a pilot, and "real" or not, that's a good enough reason to avoid them (for that pilot). Some of you are perfectly comfortable switching tanks, while my training and experience dictates that I should expect a forced landing every time I touch the selector valve (despite never having an actual failure- yet). As stated before, it's "my thing". Therefore, (in the absence of flight test to verify) my comfort would INCREASE with a "Both" option, despite the increased level of arrival planning required.
 
Not exactly. The fuel system was non-standard, because you had to reach over your back, and change tanks on the fuel selector with a pair of pliers. By taking his attention away from looking forward, he simply rolled into the water from a low altitude. The only "stupidy" was probably not adding more fuel.

Of course; if we want to call reaching over your back to switch tanks ...... standard, I suppose we can.... :eek:

L.Adamson --- RV6A

Semantics? Vice grips or not, the configuration was known to the pilot before the flight, and it did not change during flight? The fact that he couldn?t operate the equipment, yet launched out anyway puts the blame squarely on him in my opinion. Once again, the equipment did exactly what it was told to do by the pilot.
 
The only 172 manual I have handy is for a 1968 model.

The 1963 C172 I fly is placarded right on the tank selector: "Left or right tank must be selected for cruise flight above 5000 feet."


Hmm.

I wonder, what does the emergency drill look like for unexpected engine stoppage with a low wing fuel selector in the both position? Which way do you go? Look at the fuel gauges first? Perhaps it's not an issue with an EMS and fuel level alerts.

I think a scheme like Frank's dual wingroot fuel pumps, with a little solid state 15 minute automatic flip flop control (with a switch override of course) could be a bit closer to ideal, operational mode wise.

The nice thing about Frank's system, no waiting for prime, and no figuring which tank has fuel. Switch both pumps on, you either have fuel at the engine, or you never will.
 
...I think a scheme like Frank's dual wingroot fuel pumps, with a little solid state 15 minute automatic flip flop control (with a switch override of course) could be a bit closer to ideal, operational mode wise...
Oh, how I like adding complexity to a fuel system. Because I have come to know and trust every electronically controlled system ever developed. NOT!

This is kind of like my truck where everything and I mean everything is controlled by some type of programmable chip. No thanks!

There are some things I would just rather do by hand and switching tanks is one of them. Afterall, we are not flying an Airbuses and adding complexity and weight is not always a good thing.
 
Oh, how I like adding complexity to a fuel system. Because I have come to know and trust every electronically controlled system ever developed. NOT!

Well, the scheme actually takes out operational complexity. :)

This is kind of like my truck where everything and I mean everything is controlled by some type of programmable chip. No thanks!

As someone who has made a good living from the electronics industry for the last 30 years, I suspect our fear base is completely different. The question you have to ask yourself is; are humans more reliable than a dirt simple solid state device (that has an override). I know which way I'd bet. :D
 
...As someone who has made a good living from the electronics industry for the last 30 years, I suspect our fear base is completely different. The question you have to ask yourself is; are humans more reliable than a dirt simple solid state device (that has an override). I know which way I'd bet. :D

After 30 years in software development, I'll take the human every time for such a simple task.

Regarding the human override thing, it is kind of like the phone numbers stored in my cell phone. I used to know them by heart but not any more.
 
While there are a few of us who seem to feel that a "both" position is safe in some conditions, we all seem to agree that some combination of attitude and fuel level is "bad" with "both" selected.... I'd like to know what that is. Anybody have any real world experience to justify good or bad? There are a few RV's out there with a "both" position apparently; how do they fare? I guess I'd like to know what level of fuel causes things to get "iffy"... Is it 5 gallons from full, 5 gallons from empty... what? Also, if a tank does "unport", does that mean the fuel system looses it's prime and is unrecoverable? What if a discrete tank also "unports"? If it does recover, how long does it take - 5 seconds or 30?

Many certified aircraft have operating limitations that prohibit certain attitudes and fuel conditions because the engine will quit if ignored. Their "fix" is often nothing more than a placard. Is a "Both" selector in a RV any worse than these other aircraft? better? same? These are the answers we need from this thread. I certainly don't have them... Does anybody else? If not, we're all just killing time.
 
Many situations cause discomfort to a pilot, and "real" or not, that's a good enough reason to avoid them (for that pilot). Some of you are perfectly comfortable switching tanks, while my training and experience dictates that I should expect a forced landing every time I touch the selector valve (despite never having an actual failure- yet).

Let's sum up: You're willing to add a known operational risk (the "both" setting) to avoid the discomfort of a perceived mechanical risk you can't quantify (fuel valve failure) ....but you're still stuck with the discomfort, because you must operate the valve to mitigate the newly created operational risk.

Hmmmm....
 
Let's sum up: You're willing to add a known operational risk (the "both" setting) to avoid the discomfort of a perceived mechanical risk you can't quantify (fuel valve failure) ....but you're still stuck with the discomfort, because you must operate the valve to mitigate the newly created operational risk.

Hmmmm....


How about this: I'm willing to add some operational risk (the level yet undetermined, but mitigated by training, awareness, etc), to avoid the known mechanical risk that I won't quantify and can't mitigate to my satisfaction, and as a bonus, my discomfort at actuating the valve is reduced because of less cycles per flight.

Understand, this is practical for me if I can take off, climb and cruise in "both", then select a discrete tank until dry, then land on the final tank. If it turns out that "both" only works for the first 30 minutes of flight, then there is no advantage. However, no one has offered any practical evidence to support any theory, so until then, it's moot.
 
While there are a few of us who seem to feel that a "both" position is safe in some conditions, we all seem to agree that some combination of attitude and fuel level is "bad" with "both" selected.... I'd like to know what that is. Anybody have any real world experience to justify good or bad? There are a few RV's out there with a "both" position apparently; how do they fare? I guess I'd like to know what level of fuel causes things to get "iffy"... Is it 5 gallons from full, 5 gallons from empty... what? Also, if a tank does "unport", does that mean the fuel system looses it's prime and is unrecoverable? What if a discrete tank also "unports"? If it does recover, how long does it take - 5 seconds or 30?

Many certified aircraft have operating limitations that prohibit certain attitudes and fuel conditions because the engine will quit if ignored. Their "fix" is often nothing more than a placard. Is a "Both" selector in a RV any worse than these other aircraft? better? same? These are the answers we need from this thread. I certainly don't have them... Does anybody else? If not, we're all just killing time.

Good questions! I hope you get some answers before trying to "fix" a system (that isn't broke) based on some perceived problems and superstition.
 
Good questions! I hope you get some answers before trying to "fix" a system (that isn't broke) based on some perceived problems and superstition.

Switching tanks in flight is ALWAYS a problem, and the risk it carries is not superstition. The question on the table is which "less than ideal" system (Van's, or the "Both") results in lower overall risk for a specific pilot. The "fix" is to pick the system of lowest risk after weighing the options.
 
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