Engine Out Causes

In reading the recent thread on gliding distances, I notice a lot of people report suffering engine outs. I thought it might be nice if we could start a list of the specific circumstances that led to the power loss so as to prevent future mishaps. How 'bout it guys?

Steve Zicree
RV4

my engine outs

i've had 3 partial -- in certified a/c (none in my rv, as it isn't finished yet)

first was in a c-150 -- doing engine out training. got carb ice, and when i pushed the throttle in, the engine wouldn't make enough power to keep us aloft. good thing the student did an adequate job picking a field, 'cuz that's where we landed.

second was a cracked cylinder in a piper t-arrow iii. still making partial power, but shaking like the dickens, though i didn't secure the engine. i left it at idle in case i misjudged the glide (to an airport). didn't, it worked fine. the cylinder was cracked just under the cooling fins about 270* around.

third was in a c-310. descending into little rock for a fuel stop (in imc). got a turn to 040 which i completed about the time i reached 4000 in the descent. pushed both throttles up and got a severe yawing to the right. i knew the engine was still running 'cuz the mp was ~10 inches instead of ambient, but it sure wasn't making any thrust. so i feathered it, shot the single-engine ils to a single engine landing. throttle cable had broken.

i'd rather be lucky than good.

john

Engine out causes

Speaking of carb ice, here's a story about a guy that may have had that problem. http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20051007163110721

At least, that was the NTSB's conclusion. He's not so sure. What I found surprising is that the NTSB determined that the Van's standard carburetor heat system didn't work very well at all.

When I fly carbureted aircraft, I always make sure that there is a real noticable RPM drop when I pull carb heat. If not, I get it checked out. I flew in a different guy's RV6 that had no drop in RPM, and he thought it was normal. I have my doubts after reading the above report.

Mine was an alternator failure and eventual dead battery with an EFI Subaru. I learned my lesson the hard way. Now have a backup battery and a REALLY loud aural warning buzzer when battery voltage drops below 12.5. I missed the warning light with the sun on it until the avionics started to pack up. Ugghh what's this? Duuuu.

I could tell you about a very lucky fellow in a 421 who lost both engines over the Rockies, deadsticked it into the only short, grass airfield within 50 miles through a solid cloud deck about 2000 AGL. He got it stopped, no other damage than the popped Contis and his shorts. Lucky AND good.

By the way, we discussed than Van's carb heat issue there a month or so ago. It does not really work so don't rely on it.

Only Engine damage so far

Hand tightened oil fitting after replacing oil cooler - lost all oil.

Ran tank dry while focusing on first flight with new engine over the Pacific Ocean near Catalina.

Tookoff and steep climb out with partially full tip tank selected.

Carburetor failure on first flight with a newly overhauled engine.

Ran tank dry in the designated test box because of a plumbing error (19 gallon tank and 8.5 gallon tanks connected to wrong selector ports).

I think that is close to being all of them although there have been a couple of other close calls.

Bob Axsom

FAA stats

Fuel starvation G

In all of it's many forms

What can I say - don't do as I did. The man wanted to know actual causes and there are mine. Hopefully he will now avoid running out of gas.

Bob Axsom

Muffler Mishap

Smelled smoke upon rotation in my C-150. When I reduced power after climbout to safe altitude, the engine shuddered and obviously wanted to quit. The choices were full throttle or a seized engine. Engine vibration increased dramatically as I lined up to land at full throttle. Nearing the threshold of the 3200' downward sloping runway, I retarded the power and the engine promptly quit. Hard braking and 3100 feet later, we came to a halt. Incident happened less than 10 hours after the annual inspection ritual by a certified shop. Thanks to Van, (you can see the cowling off of Darla in the background) I'll do my own inspections from now on, thank you.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
1966F C-150

I definitely appreciate the responses here. We all know the stats, but sometimes the stats leave out some tricky little item that we wouldn't consider. For example, I remember reading about a guy who installed some sort of remote lever that would open his oil drain. The install went perfectly until his nose gear retracted in flight and tripped the lever. It's easy to imagine overlooking this type of thing while on the ground. Another one I recall is a guy with a pusher who replaced the lightweight plastic gas cap with a nice beefy aluminum one, only to have it pop out during climbout and take out his wood prop.

Keep em coming

Steve Zicree

NTSB Database

We all know the stats, but sometimes the stats leave out some tricky little item that we wouldn't consider.

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Totally true. The NTSB database only covers accidents or incidents that get reported. Also, if you lose an engine, and land on a road or field with no injury or damage to the aircraft, people often don't get the feds involved. Still, it would be great to learn from those events.

Not RV related but..........

No.1 T-34 Pressure Carburetor problem. Engine quit on downwind after takeoff.

No.2. My Cessna 175 O-360 Lyc conversion. Sucked an exhaust valve. Engine locked up on 1/4 mile final. Wife said, "Oh look, the cars on the freeway are stopping?"

No.3 Cessna TU-206 Repo "service." You know...bank papers in-hand, sneak in with the locksmith, make the keys and take off. The "owner" only made one payment in two years. The engine died everytime I made a power reduction. Using the boost pump made no difference. Seemed to be a mixture problem. Rule of thumb: Undo/reverse everything you did up to that point to have the engine running again. Came in very high...just in case the engine decided to quite before the field was made. The bank called again: Hey Doug, you want to go repo another plane? My answer: "Nope."

Fuel Pump

Mechanical Fuel Pump failure.
AD on it about 1 year later.
Kahuna

Engine Out in a 6A

My engine failure that came only 7 hours after purchasing my 6A was the result of the builder. He had disassembled the engine and sent everything to ECI for the proper inspections. Upon reassembly, it appears he missed one critical item, the crankshaft gear. The bolt is installed, torqued, and then secured by a tab that you have to bend up on a bolt flat. He missed it! We were very fortunate that we had a few minutes of daylight left that allowed me to find that farmer's field.

This was a forced landing with a perfectly good airplane. Maybe this belongs under stupid pet tricks or something. I was at around 100 hours TT when I took a non flying friend on an airplane ride to Gaston's for breakfast. It was a very warm morning (85 deg). As we started our downwind I noticed a lot of heat in the cabin and imagined I smelled smoke. Not many things bother me more than fire. The sun was coming in the windshield which made it even hotter. It seemed like forever before we were able to get the plane around the pattern and on the ground. When I was sure I had the grass strip made I killed the engine, shut off the fuel and unlatched the doors in the my 172. I think we bailed out of the plane before it even stopped rolling. Much to my surprise there was no fire and no smoke. People must have thought I had a cockpit full of hornets. Lesson learned: Pull carb heat not cabin heat! Imagination can be a terrible thing to waste. Other lesson learned: Cabin heat works great in a 172 on a hot summer day. Final note: My friend is still my friend.
Jim Wright RV-9 Left flap 90919. Arkansas

Now thats funny

rv9aviator said:

This was a forced landing with a perfectly good airplane. Maybe this belongs under stupid pet tricks or something. I was at around 100 hours TT when I took a non flying friend on an airplane ride to Gaston's for breakfast. It was a very warm morning (85 deg). As we started our downwind I noticed a lot of heat in the cabin and imagined I smelled smoke. Not many things bother me more than fire. The sun was coming in the windshield which made it even hotter. It seemed like forever before we were able to get the plane around the pattern and on the ground. When I was sure I had the grass strip made I killed the engine, shut off the fuel and unlatched the doors in the my 172. I think we bailed out of the plane before it even stopped rolling. Much to my surprise there was no fire and no smoke. People must have thought I had a cockpit full of hornets. Lesson learned: Pull carb heat not cabin heat! Imagination can be a terrible thing to waste. Other lesson learned: Cabin heat works great in a 172 on a hot summer day. Final note: My friend is still my friend.
Jim Wright RV-9 Left flap 90919. Arkansas

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Damn funny.
thanks for the post.
Kahuna

rv9aviator said:

Lesson learned: Pull carb heat not cabin heat! Imagination can be a terrible thing to waste. Other lesson learned: Cabin heat works great in a 172 on a hot summer day. Final note: My friend is still my friend.
Jim Wright RV-9 Left flap 90919. Arkansas

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Too funny. When I was getting my private ticket, my instructor did this to me intentionally. He had me make a left turn and when I lifted the 172's wing and looked left, he pulled the cabin heat. It was an awful smell and I can certainly see how you thought it was a fire. Anyway, he had me deal with the 'emergency' and when I dialed in the tower freq. to request a priority landing he let me in on his little trick. I think this is something all CFI's should do to their students.

I pulled the mixture instead of carbheat during a lesson once. Got real quiet for a second until I realized my mistake.

I glanced over at my instructor who had a smirk on his face and said, "bet I won't do that again!"

Regards,

Check your oil and fuel lines.

A Vans service bulletin I received the week before my first flight probably saved me from a flameout.

The service bulletin in question stated that a number of oil line hoses in the RV7 FWF kit had been improperly assembled and had a flap of rubber near the fitting that could act like a trap door and close off oil flow.

I pulled all my fuel and oil lines to check them and found three such rubber flaps in my oil lines. You couldn't see them just by looking. I had to make a little hook out of safety wire and probe the rubber next to the fitting to find them.

Ever since then, I've wondered how many mysterious engine-out's during the first few hours have been caused by improperly assembled rubber hoses.

A few weeks ago, I was helping a friend with his engine runup. We had a leaky fuel line that turned out to be an improperly assembled fuel hose. It sure didn't give me a high degree of confidence that the QA problem has been fixed.

Sean Tucker

not RV related but if anyone gets a chance to see Sean Tucker speak at Osh, he usually shows a cockpit video of him taking a friend of his daughter up for a ride in his open-cockpit bipe. Perfect example of how to handle a major engine problem.

As the video starts to roll he explains that the girl was apprehensive about flying but wanted to go up for a ride as long as he didn't do anything to scare her. She's in the front seat right in front of the camera.

The terrain below is quite hilly. He's about 4000 agl. He tells her he's going to do a gentle maneuver and that there's nothing to be afraid of. All of a sudden there's a loud bang, the plane lurches and everything goes silent. The propeller "leaves the airplane". You can see it fly off behind them. (It was a new custom Hartzell)

He casually says over the intercom that they just lost the propeller but everything's ok. The girl's eyes go wide open.

Tucker handles it as if it happens every day. He talked to the girl all the way down to a perfect dead stick landing at the airport he happened to be flying over.

He shows the video as an example of making the best of a bad/dumb situation.

ship said:

The terrain below is quite hilly. He's about 4000 agl. He tells her he's going to do a gentle maneuver and that there's nothing to be afraid of. All of a sudden there's a loud bang, the plane lurches and everything goes silent. The propeller "leaves the airplane". You can see it fly off behind them. (It was a new custom Hartzell)

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Oh drat. Just when I had my checklist all set up for an emergency where 50 pounds of propellor leaves unexpectedly thereby fatally shifting the CG several feet aft.

Now I have to change my checklist from "Shout as loud as possible so all passengers can hear: "We're Gonna' Die!", to:

"Re-trim immediately, calm your passengers, land at the airstrip directly below you, then change underwear at earliest convenience".

Good thing the entire prop left at the same time. Here is what happened to a friend of mine when only 17" of the prop decided it didn't want to fly along with his Waco UPF-7 any longer.

The closest I ever came to an engine failure (Other than the occasional sputter from some old engine.) was a rental Archer my Ex wife and I rented for an afternoon of sightseeing. Right after we lifted off and were over the trees at the departure end of the runway the cabin filled with white smoke that smelled of burning oil.

The O-360 was still making power so I kept the throttle fire walled, made a left turn to down wind, called in a "may day", and flew the pattern at 400 feet AGL. Pulled the mixture, shut the fuel off, and opened the door on short final when I knew I had the field made.

I made a great landing despite what seemed like five hours of very high pitched screaming from the Ex.

The owner of the flight school met us on the runway with a fire extinguisher in hand.

It turns out we were the first person to fly it after an oil change and the guy who changed the oil put almost a full quart of oil in the heater muff.

Let me tell you, that white smoke thing in the cabin will sure get your attention in a hurry!

Highflight said:

Oh drat. Just when I had my checklist all set up for an emergency where 50 pounds of propellor leaves unexpectedly thereby fatally shifting the CG several feet aft.

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someone in the audience asked about that....tucker said he got reeealllly lucky that 1) it came off clean 2) the prop was composite, 3) the engine was large for the bird and 4) the prop/engine in his bipe is deliberately closer to cg to enhance maneuverability.....thus not much effect on cg when the prop parted company

i recall him saying the crank flange blew off (new super-hopped up motor, etc.) which saved his butt....a single blade loss would;ve ripped the engine out.

now that you mention it, i wonder if a nose-heavy -8 flown solo could survive the loss of a composite prop if not a Hartzell. anybody with a 200hp engine want to run a "no prop" cg calc for kicks?

CG shift ~1.5 inches? Check my math

ship said:

now that you mention it, i wonder if a nose-heavy -8 flown solo could survive the loss of a composite prop if not a Hartzell. anybody with a 200hp engine want to run a "no prop" cg calc for kicks?

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I eyeballed some numbers from the Vans site since I don't have access to anything more accurate right now, but here's what I assumed:

50 lb prop, mounted 4 ft forward of the CG, 1650 lb total aircraft weight.

CG shift (aft) = 50lb x 48 in / 1600 lb = 1.5 inches

So if you have 1.5 inches to spare in your CG envelope, then go ahead and jettison your prop.

converting to glider mode...

this is interesting: i ran some numbers from dan checkoway's w&b calculator....turns out that if you're solo in an 8/8a and without baggage, losing the 50lb prop "clean" ala Sean Tucker leaves you WELL within cg....almost 2" margin.

a combo with lighter fuel/bubba pilot/light pax/no baggage will also be within cg although right on the aft end of acceptable range....i.e. completely survivable assuming everything else is intact.

if you have a bubba in back, yer goin' down tail-first

all of this is academic since shedding a blade is far more likely and completely destructive

How does the RV-7 behave with a simulated (or real) engine out situation? Pretty exciting descent rate or something ordinary mortal pilots could easily handle? I appreciate it will be different with FP vs CS props.

Is the RV-9 more docile?

How do they handle with practice short approaches?

Roger

I've been practicing power off approaches in my RV-6 lately. It glides pretty flat till you start hanging the flaps out, then things change. At 120 mph on downwind, I pull the power opposite the numbers when I've slowed to 85 mph I turn base. I'm overshooting just a little, then lower about half flaps and slow to 80 mph. Still just a tiny bit high, go to full flaps crossing the threshold and plant it on the numbers. It works consistantly well for me. If I ever do have to put this airplane in field somewhere, I want to be able to hit my spot.

By the way, my RV-6 has a fixed pitch propeller. I'm sure it would behave differently with a constant speed prop. We all just need to learn our airplanes.

Bob Severns

I wonder how much more a feathering prop would weigh? With the poor gliding ability of the short wing rv's, it might be a good safety item. On the other hand, it doesn't happen that oftain.

RSmith said:

How does the RV-7 behave with a simulated (or real) engine out situation? Pretty exciting descent rate or something ordinary mortal pilots could easily handle? I appreciate it will be different with FP vs CS props.

Is the RV-9 more docile?

How do they handle with practice short approaches?

Roger

Click to expand...

You might see the thread below which basically discusses this issue,

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=20305#post20305

As well as what I commented re: tested and documented sink rates...

"Just for the sake of tested numbers that seem relevant to this thread...

Per the CAFE report on the 8A (Van's demo with constant speed), best glide ratio is 9:1. With the same wing, but not quite as clean of an airframe, it's logical that the 7A would be close to, but slightly less, than than the 8A. Lowest sink rate for 8A ~ 1000 fpm. Report at www.cafefoundation.org.

Per the CAFE report on the 9A (Van's demo with constant speed), the best glide ratio is 12:1. Lowest sink rate ~ 600 fpm. Report not yet on cafefoundation.org site, but was printed in two parts in the summer issues of "Experimental Aircraft Technology." "

Thanks for the feedback, folks. The CAFE report is excellent- thanks, Steve, for the link. I've ordered the Experimental A/C Technology magazine.

Roger

fuel vent blockage in a 172

I was on a low level (500 agl) pipeline patrol when the engine in my C172 stumbled badly and than quit. After about 5 seconds during which I checked mixture rich, carb heat, etc the engine fired back up. I was 8 miles from a large airport and called the tower with an emergency and was cleared to land on any runway; the engine quit again and after about ten second started up again. After about three more cycles of quitting and running I had the runway made and as soon as I pulled off the runway the engine died again and I had to taxi the half mile or so the the fbo with a part time engine. I climbed up on the wing to visually inspect the fuel quantity and when I loosend the cap pressure from inside the tank nearly pushed it out of my hand and I could hear the fuel tanks "moving around" inside the wing. The mechanic on duty put compressed air into the vent and sure enough some sort of blockage was encountered and freed up. I flew home within the hour. About a year later my fuel tank developed a leak and I surmise that it was caused by the stress of oil canning during the blocked fuel vent episode.

ship said:

not RV related but if anyone gets a chance to see Sean Tucker speak at Osh, he usually shows a cockpit video of him taking a friend of his daughter up for a ride in his open-cockpit bipe. Perfect example of how to handle a major engine problem.

As the video starts to roll he explains that the girl was apprehensive about flying but wanted to go up for a ride as long as he didn't do anything to scare her. She's in the front seat right in front of the camera.

The terrain below is quite hilly. He's about 4000 agl. He tells her he's going to do a gentle maneuver and that there's nothing to be afraid of. All of a sudden there's a loud bang, the plane lurches and everything goes silent. The propeller "leaves the airplane". You can see it fly off behind them. (It was a new custom Hartzell)

He casually says over the intercom that they just lost the propeller but everything's ok. The girl's eyes go wide open.

Tucker handles it as if it happens every day. He talked to the girl all the way down to a perfect dead stick landing at the airport he happened to be flying over.

He shows the video as an example of making the best of a bad/dumb situation.

Click to expand...

With reguard to Tucker,
I can only say "We are not worthy!, We are not worthy!" Seriously though, losing the prop on a PITTS (like Tucker did) would probably kill most "NORMAL" human beings. I saw that video and can only say that if Sean was with me in an emergency I would say, "your airplane" so fast it would be amazing!
Bill Jepson
Rotary10-RV
PS. The reason the prop left was the crankshaft broke off behind the flange. They found the prop with it still bolted on thank you. I saw the vid from the engine builders at Lycon, who build all Sean's engines AFTER the crank failure.
Bill

Merry Christmas Like No Other

Christmas day this past year VFR flight from OKC to Austin level at 8500ft. TruTrak engaged bored to death and playing with the 430 and some of it's neat functions and BAM!!!! Sounded like a shotgun went off in my headset the plane went to shaking violently. First look at AF2500 indicates all normal, temps good, pressure good. First thought was lost part of a blade. Seconds later the little lady in my ear told me I had an engine problem instead. Oil pressure dropped to zero instantly. From playing with 430 seconds earlier I knew Bridgeport, TX airport was at my three o clock and about 4 miles. Immediate right turn and a quick call to Ft. Worth center who I was already with on Flight Following to let them know I was diverting and the nature of my problem. Did all the usual things to try and will that motor to stop shaking and to start making power again but to no avail I was committed to a dead stick landing. Made to Bridgeport with altitude to spare and an uneventful landing with enough rollout speed to make the ramp parking area. After sitting and gathering my composure for a bit I exited the airplane to find lots and lots of oil down the side of the plane. Upon walking around to the front I discovered the #2 cylinder had been ejected from the case and was pushed out flush with the two cowling halfs. Piano hinges had uncurled and the cylinder head was poking its head out saying hello look at me. Needless to say lots of oil everywhere but most importantly not over the windshield...... and no FIRE. Turns out the engine which had 200 hours on it since major by a shop in Florida had ejected the jug due to the rod cap nuts backing off completely and allowing the crank to push the cylinder to the top of the jug and shearing all the studs on the case. Interesting note is that the rod cap was found intact with both bolts still in it not striped or fractured laying in the bottom of the cowling when I removed it. The crank threw it out of the case between the gap of the skirt of the jug and the case, which was a very large gap. I have pics of the jug sticking out of the cowling but they are too big to post here. I hope no one ever has to go through an ordeal like this one. All in all it was the best Christmas ever considering everything else that could have happened.

Scary deal! Glad it all worked out ok. Did you ever figure out the nature of the screwup that caused the nuts to back off? I'm not familiar with Lycomings, but most motors have a locking tab of some type on the rod bolts/nuts to prevent this. I'm sure readers in the Florida area would appreciate knowing who the shop was and what they did after the fact to help make things right. I'd at least demand a new pair of shorts.


Steve Zicree
RV4 finishing

I believe on the lyc's they're suppose to be cotter pinned, which i'm guessing didn't happen.

2 outs-

First was in a rented 172 - RPM dropped by 15 Min in the flight- then a short time after the oil temp climbed and the oil pres dropped and dropped Then to zero, I allready turned to closest airport then heard evrything gets louder when lacking oil for the crank and rod bearings, then pulled the mixture and way way too quite- in glider mode. Looked like I was going to make the airport but was also eyeing a par 5 dogleg also... had to s turn to final- Was a high time 0300 with all the cyl rings broken in the piston. Pressurized the case and pumped the oil out.
Second was in Wittman tailwind where water was in the tank after a rain. I thought I drained it all but there was a secondary fuel pump addition coming from the tank- this is a check valve setup that has no low point that was drainable. When the elect. fuel pump is on for takeoff it gets fuel from this source- Lost the engine at 300 feet and landed on a sandy road that flipped the plane over. that was no fun.
Also 20 hrs in gliders- but that is just different type of engine out fun.....

Engine Builder

Don George Aircraft Engines in Florida built my engine.

The engine had a written warranty which turned out to be worthless. Less than a year since majored and less than 225 flight hours....................and guess what sorry but no we can't help you, but thanks for the 29k you paid us to build your engine.

On the positive side I'm very happy with my new Aerosport engine!!!

rv9aviator said:

This was a forced landing with a perfectly good airplane. Maybe this belongs under stupid pet tricks or something. I was at around 100 hours TT when I took a non flying friend on an airplane ride to Gaston's for breakfast. It was a very warm morning (85 deg). As we started our downwind I noticed a lot of heat in the cabin and imagined I smelled smoke. Not many things bother me more than fire. The sun was coming in the windshield which made it even hotter. It seemed like forever before we were able to get the plane around the pattern and on the ground. When I was sure I had the grass strip made I killed the engine, shut off the fuel and unlatched the doors in the my 172. I think we bailed out of the plane before it even stopped rolling. Much to my surprise there was no fire and no smoke. People must have thought I had a cockpit full of hornets. Lesson learned: Pull carb heat not cabin heat! Imagination can be a terrible thing to waste. Other lesson learned: Cabin heat works great in a 172 on a hot summer day. Final note: My friend is still my friend.
Jim Wright RV-9 Left flap 90919. Arkansas

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Well, now I don't feel quite so bad. The day I passed my PPL checkride, I took my non-flying, scared of small planes wife up for a hop in the flight school C-152. The Cessna plastic Royalite interior was held together with duct tape and so of course she thought the engine was similarly put together. We took off from Addison, TX and as we passed the Outer Marker, the indicator started beeping. Well, I either wasn't paying attention the day my flight instructor demonstrated this or she didn't mention the Marker Beacon in my training. My wife asked with great concern if that ALARM was serious, and maybe it was her use of the word alarm, but I radioed tower and asked for an imediate return to the airport. To make my face even more red (if that was possible), I immediately reported it to the chief flight instructor at the school who identified what it was after I described the beeps. Live and learn!

Mark