I think I might find out what age does to rates in a day or so from Shanna. It is all in the perspective, I am proud to say I have been flying 46 years this week without ever an accident or claim. I bet Gallagher will tell that story differently by saying "you are almost 80 years old and that is too old to get a decent rate"
Shanna,
Thanks for the info. Approximately what is the age cutoff for the higher liability limits?
Actually I doubt you will hear that. While age discrimination certainly exists, most companies are careful not to say anything that might confirm it.
Don, before I jump to a conclusion, may I ask a question? Are you requesting insurance on a just-finished kit, for a specific model (e.g. -12) in which you have little time-in-type? If the answer is yes, then that is the issue. For my first year of flying the -10, I had few options, and my premiums were about 3x what they are now. Insurers will tell you that those first 50 hours have a statistically higher risk of a loss. Low time in type has a statistically higher risk too.
Edit. I see in your by-line that you have an automotive engine? Insurers don't like that either.
Yep, just finished kit, still need transition training and a BFR before I fly, Viking aircraft engine, which is essentially an auto conversion.
I was comparing my rate to my friends, who also have the same configuration of engine and plane and experience. Only difference is that I am double or more their age and have more flying experience!
I was going to ask Shanna if in her experience, after I have several years flying it with no claims, if they would go up cause I am even older, or down because of experience. That is an unknown.
In the past I have found insurance companies actually rely very little on actual facts, but use some sort of crystal ball or something to determine risks. Unfortunately there is absolutely NO way any insurance company can use any facts to determine the risk of private pilots flying on their drivers license, since we are off the radar for them.
......Age should not be a MAJOR factor until at least age 90, then it becomes problematic but not impossible......
My personal experience proves most of this wrong.From what I have seen the last couple of decades, the above may be true if the pilot has been continuously insured for many, many years. General advice now seems to be that once a pilot reaches 70 he should not let insurance lapse or attempt to switch carriers if he intends to continue flying.
Attempting to secure a new policy at age 80 with no time in make and model with an automotive engine and no recent flying experience.....it is obvious the two quotes Don has received are from carriers that really don't want to write a policy for him. If the other carriers (all reputable) thought a pilot in his situation was an acceptable risk they would have offered quotes.
Don, I hate to see you in this situation, but I really hope you don't decide to fly your RV-12 with no insurance. I suggest you consider a liability-only policy. You will have to self-insure the hull against damage, but this may bring the premium down to a realistic figure. But flying without any insurance.....a failed brake and taxiing into a business jet wingtip, someone falling off the wing while getting out of the plane.....
From what I have seen the last couple of decades, the above may be true if the pilot has been continuously insured for many, many years. General advice now seems to be that once a pilot reaches 70 he should not let insurance lapse or attempt to switch carriers if he intends to continue flying.
Attempting to secure a new policy at age 80 with no time in make and model with an automotive engine and no recent flying experience.....it is obvious the two quotes Don has received are from carriers that really don't want to write a policy for him. If the other carriers (all reputable) thought a pilot in his situation was an acceptable risk they would have gladly offered quotes and pocketed the premium.
Don, I hate to see you in this situation, but I really hope you don't decide to fly your RV-12 with no insurance. I suggest you consider a liability-only policy. You will have to self-insure the hull against damage, but this may bring the premium down to a realistic figure. But flying without any insurance.....a failed brake and taxiing into a business jet wingtip, someone falling off the wing while getting out of the plane.....
My personal experience proves most of this wrong.
Over 70
no insurance for years on personal airplane
one flight a year for four years
Working in my favor:
long track record with multiple insurance companies as professional pilot
1000 hours plus in make and model
Lycoming clone
high time pilot
no accidents of violations
clean NDR
The only thing I can make of the OP is that the insurance company(s) don't like modifications to RV12.
Regarding going without insurance, 40 years ago probably 80% of small aircraft owners in NE had no insurance. I did not have insurance on my first EAB for most of 11 years.
I have family in the insurance business and can assure you that any insurers using a crystal ball would have long ago tanked. Insurance companies are extremely good at evaluating risk (at least ones that stay in business are). You may not like what they determine, but that doesn't change statistics.
The only thing they have to go off of are facts (numbers). All of your numbers (age, total time, time in type, ratings, training hours, alternative engine, etc) go into a formula, and that formula tells them how likely you are to have to make a claim.
Statistics of course are meaningless to the individual (you), and you may never have an accident in your life. But it doesn't change the fact that a large enough group of pilots with your same numbers will have more claims than that same size group with lower risk factors. To the insurance companies, you are not an individual, you are part of a group, and they have to adjust rates accordingly.
My car insurance costs more than my wife's, even though neither of us have an accident or any tickets, and I consider myself a better driver (don't tell her). Statistically, she is more likely to get in an accident, but I'm more likely to get in a BIG accident (when men crash, we do it big time). My car insurance company could care less how safe I TELL them I am - the numbers don't lie.
Hopefully you can find some ways to lower your risk factors (besides age), and will also see a reduction after your first year of flying.
Chris
Your assessment of the industry is noble, but is not supported by my quotes with identical information, one at $2875 and another at $5700. Their criteria is kept secret, so who knows!
I didn't suggest they all used the same formula, just that they all seem to agree that somebody with your stats poses more of a risk. Some of those risk factors you can change, others not. It will go down after a year, if nothing else.
Chris
For the record, I have never been fooled into thinking I was not at the top of the risk pool, heck I would not probably insure me either! Being unable to put a finger on the reasons I guess is what bugs me the most.
I am also going to revisit the declared value. I actually have no real idea of its value or what I have spent to build it, I just picked $85g out of the sky, probably $20k less than that is far more realistic.
Don,
For comparison, my first policy in 2011 was $2800. (Today it's half that).
In 2011:
age 63 (younger)
Plane RV-10 (so worth more)
zero time in make/model
2400 hrs TT
I was current in BFR, had 50 hours in the previous year.
Comm/instrument/cfii licenses/ratings
So some things I was "better", some "worse". Similar premiums, especially if you throw in 6 years of inflation.
BTW, AVEMCO has always quoted me almost twice the premium of anyone else. But they did send me a nice baseball hat!
Another question: What did you ask for, in terms of hull value coverage? Insurance companies are very suspicious if they think the value is inflated.