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-   -   ELT vs PLB (http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=164590)

burgundyja 09-28-2018 06:23 AM

ELT vs PLB
 
FAR 91.207
For operations other than those specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, there must be attached to the airplane an approved personal type or an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations.

Can I just have a PLB? There are words in the far about attached to aircraft and testing that I would comply with.

Mel 09-28-2018 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burgundyja (Post 1291730)
FAR 91.207
For operations other than those specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, there must be attached to the airplane an approved personal type or an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations.
Can I just have a PLB? There are words in the far about attached to aircraft and testing that I would comply with.

But our aircraft DO fall under paragraph (a)(1) of §91.207. Therefore you must have an ELT. You may substitute a PLB if your operations only fall under paragraph (e) or (f).

akschu 09-28-2018 05:14 PM

You really want both.

I recommend a 406mhz ELT (artex are great) and a garmin in-reach.

The inreach is fantastic since it's basically a satellite phone without the voice, so a text only satellite phone. You can use it to text anyone from anywhere in the world.

I live in Alaska and use mine all of the time to text in flight status to my wife and friends while I'm hundreds of miles from cell phone service.

Should I have a forced landing, I have a GPS fed 406mhz ELT as well as the ability to coordinate with search and rescue (location/weather/etc) from the in-reach.

schu

burgundyja 09-29-2018 07:26 AM

(1) There is attached to the airplane an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition for the following operations, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations:
(i) Those operations governed by the supplemental air carrier and commercial operator rules of parts 121 and 125;
(ii) Charter flights governed by the domestic and flag air carrier rules of part 121 of this chapter; and
(iii) Operations governed by part 135 of this chapter; or

(2) For operations other than those specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, there must be attached to the airplane an approved personal type or an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations.

We don't fit in the sub category i or ii or iii.

N941WR 09-29-2018 08:57 AM

Rather than a PLB, I would install an APRS tracker.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ysprune=&f=104

burgundyja 09-29-2018 01:41 PM

The reason i am asking is because i believe the chances of going down somewhere with little injury is much more likely then being unconscious. PLB is easier cheaper and better for that situation. Can I remove my elt this year in the inspection and just get a PLB?

Mel 09-29-2018 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burgundyja (Post 1292057)
The reason i am asking is because i believe the chances of going down somewhere with little injury is much more likely then being unconscious. PLB is easier cheaper and better for that situation. Can I remove my elt this year in the inspection and just get a PLB?

§91.207(a)(1) requires you to have an ELT! If you already have an ELT, why would you want to remove it? Maybe I'm not understanding your question.

woxofswa 09-29-2018 03:21 PM

https://www.avweb.com/news/features/...-231549-1.html

smokyray 10-04-2018 04:17 PM

ELT for me?
 
Guys,
The FAA regulation (91.207) below has exemptions listed to the requirements section as well a list of 406MHZ PLB's that can be used in lieu of an ELT if you fly solo, or are engaging in operations pertaining to exemptions 3,4,8 and 9 above. (There is no requirement for the ELT to transmit 406MHZ in the U.S. but satellites no longer monitor 121.5. However, nearly every airliner inflight does) Otherwise, as Mel stated, you need an ELT installed.

I removed and sold my (now extinct) AK 406MHZ ELT in my Sonerai in lieu of a NOAA/FAA approved PLB and shaved 6lbs off the EW. Another nice feature of the PLB is portability in case of forced landing, hiking trips, etc.

Exemptions: ( Arguably, 3, 4, 8 and 9 regularly apply to some experimental RV Flying operations)
Aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began;
Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing.
Aircraft while used for showing compliance with regulations, crew training, exhibition, air racing, or market surveys;
Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person.

V/R
Smokey

https://iflyamerica.org/plb.asp
PLB/ELT article

ELTs & Homebuilt Aircraft

Do I need an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) in my homebuilt?
Yes, if you are building an airplane that has more than one seat, you will be required to have an ELT. The regulation that pertains to ELT's is 14 CFR 91.207. This section applies to all US registered civil airplanes, whether they are standard or experimental category.

The specific paragraph in 91.207 that applies to homebuilt aircraft reads as follows:
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil airplane unless --
(2) For operations other than those specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, there must be attached to the airplane an approved personal type or an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations.
Paragraph (a)(1) of 91.207 talks about charter and air carrier operations, and does not apply to the operation of homebuilt aircraft.

Single seat airplanes are exempt from the requirement for an ELT. This exemption is found in 91.207(f)(9), the pertinent part of which is quoted here:
"(f) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to --
(9) Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person."
Thus, a single-seat airplane is not required to have an ELT installed, regardless of certification category.

Note that this regulation speaks specifically to “airplanes”, which the FAA defines as:

“…an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.”

This being the case, homebuilts other than airplanes (i.e., helicopters, gyroplanes, balloons, gliders, airships, trikes, powered parachutes, etc.) do not require an ELT under this regulation.
There is no mandate I am aware of that you must have a 406 ELT

:) We're not happy till you're not happy...
The FAA

thinkn9a 10-05-2018 07:55 PM

this isn't recreational..... but maybe it will be educational
 
If someone can help me begin to understand what is being said in the documents cited below.

I will note from the start, that this was not an exhaustive search, as I did not care to spend the $118.75 for "RTCA DO-204A, Minimum Operational Performance Standards (MOPS) for 406 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELT), dated December 6, 2007" (which is undergoing review and update due to changes in technology,... may be time to provide useful comments)

Summary of looking at the reference docs and related documentation.
- 91.207 mentions Personal type OR automatic type
- when TSO 126b was being developed,... there was acknowledgement that hook and loop type fasteners could be used for "survival ELT" in response to comment
- AC 91-44A CHG 1 Dated 2/1/18 notes survival ELT as one type of ELT and is "type typically carried by backpackers"


So,... can someone that is aces with FAA legalese, help me understand what is being required/recommended/stated.
[meanwhile.... I'll continue my search on a 406 ELT-AF to buy,.... and continue to carry my PLB and SPOT]



Ok here is what started the discussion,.....
§91.207***Emergency locator transmitters.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil airplane unless—
(1) There is attached to the airplane an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition for the following operations, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations:
(i) Those operations governed by the supplemental air carrier and commercial operator rules of parts 121 and 125;
(ii) Charter flights governed by the domestic and flag air carrier rules of part 121 of this chapter; and
(iii) Operations governed by part 135 of this chapter; or

(2) For operations other than those specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, there must be attached to the airplane an approved personal type or an approved automatic type emergency locator transmitter that is in operable condition, except that after June 21, 1995, an emergency locator transmitter that meets the requirements of TSO-C91 may not be used for new installations.



Now,.. if you look at comments that were provided when TSO C126b (406 ELT related) was being created. Read below as if you were reading across the columns,.. (what I see is a nod to "Survival ELT")

From page 7 of comments on TSO -126b

ACR Electronics

Page 1, Paragraph 3

Our understanding of the TSO text is that the use of hook and loop retention system is allowed for survival (S) and automatic deployable (AD) ELTs.

Could you clarify this point?

Acknowledged
Within the RTCA/DO-204A the requirement for crash safety, section 2.2.5 states that the requirement is not applicable for survival and automatic deployable ELTs. The sections specify the requirements for proper attachment of the ELT in order for the ELT to meet the test requirements specified in paragraph 2.6.3.2. Thus, hook and loop fasteners may be used for survival (S) and automatic deployable (AD) ELTs.




So,... Looking at Advisory Circular related to ELT installation and testing,.... Look at paragraph 6.3

FROM: AC 91-44A CHG 1 Dated 2/1/18

6 TYPES OF ELTs. There are five basic types of ELTs: automatic fixed (ELT-AF), automatic portable (ELT-AP), survival (ELT-S), automatic deployable (ELT-AD), and distress triggered (ELT-DT). Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulations specify authorized ELT operations. ELTs approved for aircraft service are not to be used when “backpacking,” (i.e., recreational or wilderness exploration on foot).
6.1 *Automatic Fixed (ELT-AF). ELT-AF devices are permanently attached to the aircraft and designed to stay attached even after a crash to aid Search and Rescue (SAR) teams in locating a crash site. 

6.2 *Automatic Portable (ELT-AP). While attached to an aircraft, ELT-AP devices can be removed from the aircraft and continue to function. These devices act as an ELT-AF and can be activated by a crash, but can also be removed and tethered to a liferaft or person, or carried to a safe location away from the crash site. This type of device is designed to bring SAR teams to the survivors (e.g., on a liferaft in the ocean), rather than the wreckage. 

6.3 *Survival (ELT-S). ELT-S type devices are portable in nature, are manually activated, and are the type typically carried by backpackers. 

6.4 *Automatic Deployable (ELT-AD). ELT-AD devices are designed to be attached to an aircraft, but deploy (detach) automatically after a crash event has been detected. ELT-AD devices must be capable of floating on water and are designed to help crash investigators locate the crash site. 

6.5 *Distress Triggered (ELT-DT). ELT-DT devices are designed to be activated by the aircrew, or automatically by an internal or external trigger. In-flight events and detection criteria are defined in European Organization for Civil Aviation Equipment (EUROCAE) Specification ED-237, MASPS for Criteria to Detect In-Flight Aircraft Distress Events to Trigger Transmission of Flight Information, dated February, 2016. 



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