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-   -   Runway Incursion (http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=163715)

Pilotjim77 08-31-2018 08:12 AM

Runway Incursion
 
A few days ago, I was flying around the pattern at my home airport. After about a dozen touch and go's, I was about to do a full stop landing and put the airplane away. There wasn't much in the way of other traffic; one other airplane had departed the airport about 10 minutes earlier.

I was calling out each leg of my pattern on the CTAF. During my final go around, I heard a 172 pilot call out that he was back taxiing on the main runway. He back taxied and then pulled into the run up area while I was on down wind. I called out my down wind, base, and final turns. Just as I approached short final, I'd say less than 1/4 mile from the runway, the 172 pilot calls out that he is departing runway 26. However, he is not lined up on the runway; he is still in the run up area.

At this point, I make the erroneous assumption that he sees me, and that he is intending to pull onto the runway just after I land. WRONG!! At the last minute, he pulls out onto the runway right in front of me. I was able to abort my landing, pull up and turn safely to the right, and return to the base leg area, but it really rubbed me the wrong way that he never looked to see if anyone was on final. There is no way he looked because I was so close with landing light on, he could not have missed me.

After a pointed radio transmission from me, he said that he was departing IFR and was on the clearance frequency, not on the CTAF, during my transmissions.

My lesson leaned here is to never assume anything. I believe very strongly that the other pilot was more at fault here, but I did have the opportunity to simply broadcast that I was on short final before he entered the runway, and for whatever reason, I did not do that.

smt6 08-31-2018 08:34 AM

Sounds like you handled it well. Could have been much worse. The other pilot is 100% at fault. Always brief and plan for a go around.

Mel 08-31-2018 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilotjim77 (Post 1284861)
After a pointed radio transmission from me, he said that he was departing IFR and was on the clearance frequency, not on the CTAF, during my transmissions.
My lesson leaned here is to never assume anything. I believe very strongly that the other pilot was more at fault here, but I did have the opportunity to simply broadcast that I was on short final before he entered the runway, and for whatever reason, I did not do that.

Unfortunately his excuse is completely invalid. His duty is to visually check for traffic on final before taking the runway. It has little to do with radio transmissions.

JimS 08-31-2018 08:58 AM

Even at a tower airport...
 
Always look. Night instructional flight. Landed with my student, cleared runway, called tower, got clearance to taxi to ramp including "cross runway 8-26" , read back same. As we approached the intersection of our taxiway and runway 8 -26 my student started to brake. As the reminder that we were cleared to cross already started to come out of my mouth a regional airline turboprop came flashing past us about 15 feet in the air as it landed. Sat there dumbfounded for a few seconds figuring i misheard the taxi clearance. Called tower again and got clearance again to the tamp. Went home and this bothered me to the point that I called the tower and before I could even finish asking if I got the clearance wrong the controller admitted "my fault completely" .

My point is it doesn't matter whose fault it is if you end up dead. Always look when crossing taxiways and runways.

What's the phrase...trust but verify.

lr172 08-31-2018 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilotjim77 (Post 1284861)
A few days ago, I was flying around the pattern at my home airport. After about a dozen touch and go's, I was about to do a full stop landing and put the airplane away. There wasn't much in the way of other traffic; one other airplane had departed the airport about 10 minutes earlier.

I was calling out each leg of my pattern on the CTAF. During my final go around, I heard a 172 pilot call out that he was back taxiing on the main runway. He back taxied and then pulled into the run up area while I was on down wind. I called out my down wind, base, and final turns. Just as I approached short final, I'd say less than 1/4 mile from the runway, the 172 pilot calls out that he is departing runway 26. However, he is not lined up on the runway; he is still in the run up area.

At this point, I make the erroneous assumption that he sees me, and that he is intending to pull onto the runway just after I land. WRONG!! At the last minute, he pulls out onto the runway right in front of me. I was able to abort my landing, pull up and turn safely to the right, and return to the base leg area, but it really rubbed me the wrong way that he never looked to see if anyone was on final. There is no way he looked because I was so close with landing light on, he could not have missed me.

After a pointed radio transmission from me, he said that he was departing IFR and was on the clearance frequency, not on the CTAF, during my transmissions.

My lesson leaned here is to never assume anything. I believe very strongly that the other pilot was more at fault here, but I did have the opportunity to simply broadcast that I was on short final before he entered the runway, and for whatever reason, I did not do that.

While the other pilot is in the wrong, if I were you I would have announced that I was on short final as soon as the 172 pilot announced his intention. I suspect he would have yielded. I often repeat my previous announcement immediately after an otherwise not active pilot announces. I assume he just got on frequency or wasn't paying attention previously, regardless of the facts.

Its like I taught my kids when learning to drive. "ALWAYS assume the guy next to you is about to do something stupid at all times."

Pilotjim77 08-31-2018 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lr172 (Post 1284884)
While the other pilot is in the wrong, if I were you I would have announced that I was on short final as soon as the 172 pilot announced his intention. I suspect he would have yielded. I often repeat my previous announcement immediately after an otherwise not active pilot announces. I assume he just got on frequency or wasn't paying attention previously, regardless of the facts.

Its like I taught my kids when learning to drive. "ALWAYS assume the guy next to you is about to do something stupid at all times."

I agree. In retrospect, that is exactly what I should have done.

jdmunzell 08-31-2018 09:56 PM

You certainly did the right thing obviously by going around. We all need to fly defensively just as we would when we drive our cars. We practice our craft to our best abilities with saftey in mind. We do the very best that we can do not be at fault in a situation. One can never assume anything. In the end, if you wind up in an accident, it doesn't matter who was at fault. You can wind up just as dead!

BillL 09-01-2018 06:48 AM

I'll never forget . . .
 
You are right , never assume, on the ground or in the air.

I stopped at Marianna FL on a X-country once. Got fuel and rolled down the taxiway, hesitated, then decided to do my runup on the taxiway parallel to give myself some buffer to the runway, not on the short section at the hold short line. I finished, announced, then looked, looked again, saw a glider 200 ft away at 10 ft AGL landing in the grass between the runway and parallel taxi way. Thought, wow, lucky us, if I had moved, they would have had no options. Then looked again and a second glider landed on the runway. Finally, the sky was clear, announced again and took off.

Procedures to look are always required. They save lives.

AndyRV7 09-13-2018 08:59 AM

I agree with the other comments. You should have expected him to take the runway after his announcement.

For the IFR guys. This is a pet peeve of mine, flying from a home base with jet traffic. The jets seem to jump the pattern after a handoff from some other frequency. This also happens on the ground. They seem to be getting clearance and then just presume they can take off. That is, they seem to turn to common traffic frequency and announce departure without even listening for a minute to see if anyone else was even talking on the radio. Why is that!? Seems dangerous and completely irresponsible. Incidentally, you cannot see the FBO departure runway from the other end due to a sloping landscape.

Desert Rat 09-13-2018 10:37 AM

It happens to everybody if you fly long enough. Has happened to me more than once. Interestingly enough, the two that stick in my memory most vividly were both in tower controlled environments with everybody talking to the controller.

First one was at KSGF a long time ago. I was with a student and we were cleared for a touch and go. There were two guard helos hover taxiing down the taxiway that ran parallel to the crossing runway. I heard the tower controller tell them to hold short and the lead repeated it back, but then proceeded to motor right on across the active at the intersection while we were on our takeoff roll. His buddy blindly followed him as well. We were in a 152 and well short well short of the intersection, so I was able to abort the takeoff and shut it down on the runway before we got to the intersection, but if we'd been in something with a longer landing roll if could have turned out much differently.

Second one was at KDVT a few years ago. That airport gets incredibly busy with student activity, and I was in the pattern with a student with something like 4 or 5 other planes. We had been extended downwind about 3 miles for separation with tower calling the turn to base, due to all the activity.

Tower turned us in, then a little later called the Cessna behind us and told him that he was #3 behind a Piper on a 3 mile final (us). The Cessna called traffic in sight so at that point everybody was happy.

Turns out that he though he was following the airplane that was on short final, so he cut the base leg and came bombing out from behind that little mountain that is just east of the airport and cut in front of us, requiring a 360 on my part to keep from running over him.

Stuff happens, people make mistakes. Sounds like it turned out okay and you learned something. Hopefully the other guy did to and won't make the same mistake again.


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