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-   -   N838RV NTSB final report (http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=166173)

Full Throttle 11-19-2018 07:50 PM

N838RV NTSB final report
 
N838RV Final Report has been published. It has to do with a Superior Air Parts XP-400 Crankshaft failure in a RV-8A

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=FA

RV3bpilot 11-20-2018 09:33 AM

Engine Out Flight to the Ground
 
I sure wish more pilots would practice engine out landings. When it happens for real for the first time it is like you just grabbed a bare wire from an old wore out electrical cord that is plugged in to 120 volts. Then you try everything to get the engine back running, flipping switches and valves, that takes about 5 seconds. Then you shut everything off and glide with your adrenaline making you sweat and heart pound hard.

Please practice engine out landings, in most cases they are survivable even in unfriendly terrain.

gmcjetpilot 12-09-2018 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV3bpilot (Post 1303871)
I sure wish more pilots would practice engine out landings.....

Please practice engine out landings, in most cases they are survivable even in unfriendly terrain.

You are right but kind of missing the point... "Engine out landing" means what? Landing with no power (idle)? We all do that for the most part every flight, as we should be at idle at or just before touchdown... Practicing idle power pattern, approach, final, landing without adding power is good, agree. Learn your best glide speed, practice power off stalls at safe altitude, yep all good things. However....

I think the main point is DON'T STALL... They stalled. So many loss of power accidents end in a stall and uncontrolled contact with the ground... DON'T STALL...

If loss of power is at low altitude,
* Don't turn go straight or don't turn more than 20-30 degrees left or right
* Fly it to the ground at best glide speed, slow before impact, flaps out, aim for least impact
* Wings level and take what ever you got to land on or hit
* Don't try to save the airplane, don't make steep turns...
* DON'T STALL.... DON'T STALL.....

An off field landing can be very survivable if you hit under control at min controllable airspeed (min vertical sink) ... Get slow, turn, and stall, hit uncontrolled, you will not make it.

The report says the engine was a factor but not cause:
Recip engine power section - Failure (Factor)
Airspeed - Not attained/maintained (Cause)
Angle of attack - Not attained/maintained (Cause)
Personnel issues Aircraft control - Pilot (Cause)

I think artificial stall warning or AOA is a great thing. Experimental aircraft don't mandate this,
and RV's have pretty good indication from buffeting it is about to stall... if you are sensitive to it....
However AOA indicators give us an amazing safety advantage...

The other thing is these hot rod engines making over stock (Lycoming) HP. It is safe, but these
are often not certified engine configurations. This crank failed in a few hours. I am of the belief
if you have a NEW engine you should fly it like phase 1, and stay near the airport. Climb to altitude
and orbit for the first X hours... RIP and condolences to family and friends of the pilot and passenger.

rv6ejguy 12-10-2018 10:57 AM

George has some good points here although I wouldn't drop full flap in an RV. I wouldn't be here today if I had.

Read this short piece based on my experience with an actual power loss and forced landing.

http://www.sdsefi.com/air44.htm

DeeCee 57 12-10-2018 11:33 AM

yep, good pointers Ross.

Had an engine failure in my first Falco in 2008 and was way surprised at the ROD. Following a con-rod failure the Lyco had lost all oil and the prop was effectively acting as an airbrake. At the time we were only about 400m (1200ft) AGL, and aided by my guardian angel working overtime, managed to land the stricken bird on a winding mountain road. Gear partially extended and flaps up...

My modest RV flight experience has taught me that I would not be using flaps in case of an emergency landing with the engine stopped. Especially with the 3 bladed prop, the steep approach results in a flare akin to an autorotation in a chopper...

Finley Atherton 12-10-2018 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy (Post 1308258)
I wouldn't drop full flap in an RV.

Or if you do then add more speed.
Did some engine out full flap tests in my 9A some time ago. My normal (engine producing power) short field approach speed is 55 kt with full flap. With a dead engine at 55 kt and full flap there is not enough power in the elevator/wings to arrest the greater rate of descent going into the flare. I found I had to add 10 kt (65 kt) to comfortably flare with a dead engine.

Fin
9A

YellowJacket RV9 12-10-2018 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finley Atherton (Post 1308303)
Or if you do then add more speed.
Did some engine out full flap tests in my 9A some time ago. My normal (engine producing power) short field approach speed is 55 kt with full flap. With a dead engine at 55 kt and full flap there is not enough power in the elevator/wings to arrest the greater rate of descent going into the flare. I found I had to add 10 kt (65 kt) to comfortably flare with a dead engine.

Fin
9A

I guess it depends on whether you are worried about vertical or horizontal speed. I would be less concerned about being able to flare than about hitting anything in front of me at the lowest possible speed. For a forced landing in an open field, I would want a nice flare and smooth touchdown. If I was destined to hit a solid object head on, my goal would be to hit it at the lowest possible forward speed, which would seem to suggest full flaps and right on the edge of stall.

Chris

WAM120RV 12-10-2018 02:52 PM

A sad event
 
I like everyone else never want to see these reports, but as has been said we need to practice for an engine out dead stick landing. If you don’t practice you are likely to become another report.

Most RVs have very poor glide ratio, the 9 is probably the best. Having practiced in the 9 I could pull power off well before turning base and still land on the runway. In the 4 there is no way you could do that. Pulling off power about a mile out from 1000 ft is about your limit.

Putting flaps out is never a good idea until you know you can make your landing point. But you must keep speed up and make turns very gently. If you must turn tighter increase your speed first.

I recently did three PFL with an instructor as part of a BFR. The first two I did a flawless touch and goes. The third I did a full flap full stop landing with no issues at all. Two of my friends have recently had real dead stick landings, one in a Europa, the second in a Kitfox 7, in both cases the aircraft were substantially damaged but both pilots and in one case a passenger were uninsured.

Both of these guys practice regularly. The reason for the damage on the Kitfox was that he was that his only option was a ploughed field, otherwise I am pretty sure the aeroplane would have been OK too.

So, everyone should practice for this, for low time RV pilots it is even more important.

Finley Atherton 12-10-2018 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YellowJacket RV9 (Post 1308312)
I guess it depends on whether you are worried about vertical or horizontal speed. I would be less concerned about being able to flare than about hitting anything in front of me at the lowest possible speed.

I suspect that in my example where I am approaching 10 kt faster with a dead engine and full flap the high rate of descent will require considerable backstick in the flare which will abruptly reduce airspeed possibly to a similar airspeed to that after a “normal” flare at 55 kt? Might do some more testing!

Fin
9A

JonJay 12-10-2018 04:34 PM

While I do practice engine outs, remember, an engine at idle is still reducing drag by quite a bit vs an engine stopped.
I remember Joe Blank doing full engine out tests over the Alvord Desert where it was safe to do so and he mentioned to me it was pretty significant.
I am sorry I donít have direct experience. I should have taken the opportunity while I was there with Joe and our gang.


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