What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

SURE-FLY Electronic Ignition Magneto

TnMike

TnMike

Well Known Member
Thought I'd share this new magneto I discovered during OshKosh this year.
A quality built, great looking product. And,economically priced,so I bought one!

Installed this new Sure-Fly electronic ignition on my O320A2B RV4 this week and am pleased with the easy install and the smooth operation of the magneto.
It's a very simple install and utilizes existing gear and slick aviation harness for the impulse mag and aviation plugs as well (gapped from .032 -.036).
Jason Hutchinson 817-373-5161 of SureFly @ Granbury, TX is great to work with and very customer oriented.
Glad to answer any questions about the install procedures or operation so far.
Thanks,Mike
RV4 N3329M
 
49clipper

I got one and installed it this week. Flying it now to try and see any differences from my original slick mag. After one flight, I noticed slightly higher CHT's, maybe 15-20 degrees, and lower EGTs, maybe 80-100 degrees. I can also run 40 degrees LOP smoothly, which is about 25 degrees more than I could with the slick. Fuel flow is down some also. Economy cruise is now 5.9-6.0 gph at 2300 on my O-320-D1A.
 
Red Flag!

Hey All,

I was reading this article and came across a red flag... At least to me.

http://www.121five.com/stories_new.aspx?story_id=1505

It seems that the design group who made this Surefly Ignition is the same design group that brought us the Plane Power alternator and Sky Tec starter.

Now, maybe you like those products and have never had a problem with either, but that would put you in a select group... Especially with regards to the Plane Power alternator based upon a most recent poll right here on VAF.

I recently removed my Sky Tec NL starter because it was failing after only 360 hours because the bolts that attach the motor to the drive were cheap M5's and they stretched. The motor would literally wobble on the drive unit. Errors in one, errors in all as far as I am concerned. Yes, I am a tough customer.

As you might suspect from my tenor... I am not a fan.

If you aren't either, watch this product from a distance.

Me? I am sticking with my Slicks and G3i igntion setup.

Good luck to early adopters. I hope that I will eat these words later.

:cool: CJ
 
Any takers?

I am a bit surprised that this http://www.surefly.aero/ product did not get more traction in this forum.
I was in Oshkosh this year and missed it but it looks very promising.
What is remarkable is the availability of 4 and 6 cylinder units at this time and the certification process well underway.
I have a slick magneto with impulse coupling and the associated SB with 250 hour inspection and a slick rep who literally discourages the use of a slick mag
on an IO- 540 with counterweights. Others are waiting for 6 cylinder P-mags
for years and no end in sight and here is a plug in replacement for a mag and
I see no more than 3 posts on the subject.
I am aware of the PP alternator and Skytec starter problems but is this enough reason to discount this exciting alternative to one hundred year old magneto technology?
I am coming up on the 500 hour inspection cycle on my slick and I am seriously considering a surefly magneto replacement.
What say you???
 
Surefly

Ernst
I had an issue with my Skytec starter, outright failed due to poor weld at about 10 hours, however Jason worked to get me a replacement as quickly as possible. One strength of these guys is they pick up the phone and take all the time one needs to troubleshoot and if needed replace the part under warranty with minimal hassle. I was actually in the area near granbury talking to a few of the owners neighbors this summer and they were all very excited about the Surefly. One especially when his magneto completely failed on him after 300 hours. From what I gathered there is 1 -10 being used as a test bed as well as Jason's RV and a certified aircraft. There have been great results with no issues based on an extensive conversation I had with Jason. Like you,I'll be due for the 500hr within the year and that is when I'll move to the Surefly purchase. The pros is hot starts should be diminished if not removed all together; the con is the increased CHT that truthfully may be an issue for me on climbs, especially in summer when I have very little room for any higher temps.
My hope is some "adjustments" may be made that may decrease the CHT temps concern.
For now my mags are working nicely so I will be waiting for a few months, but ultimately unless something drastic occurs I'll be getting the Surefly in my 540.
Interesting the slick rep was discouraging using his mags in a 540.. Mine have worked very nicely thus far.
Pascal
 
I'm running two Bendix Mags and considering 1 Surefly or a Pmag to upgrade in the future. I have waited because my plane (IO360) hot starts and runs great so I hate to fix something that aint broke! I have 150 hrs on a Plane Power Alt and a Skytec starter and they have performed flawlessly so far.
 
N427EF said:
I am a bit surprised that this http://www.surefly.aero/ product did not get more traction in this forum.
I was in Oshkosh this year and missed it but it looks very promising.
What is remarkable is the availability of 4 and 6 cylinder units at this time and the certification process well underway.
I have a slick magneto with impulse coupling and the associated SB with 250 hour inspection and a slick rep who literally discourages the use of a slick mag
on an IO- 540 with counterweights. Others are waiting for 6 cylinder P-mags
for years and no end in sight and here is a plug in replacement for a mag and
I see no more than 3 posts on the subject.
I am aware of the PP alternator and Skytec starter problems but is this enough reason to discount this exciting alternative to one hundred year old magneto technology?
I am coming up on the 500 hour inspection cycle on my slick and I am seriously considering a surefly magneto replacement.
What say you???
Click to expand...

There are other posts on the forum about the SureFly, doing a bit of searching should get you more information. There's very little info on the website, wonder why? There has been some concerns about the surefly aggressive advance map which may cause high CHT's as does the pmags on some installations. There appears to be no programming capabilities. Something that hasn't been talked about is that the surefly uses a Slick plug wire cap harness, magnetos use solid core wire whereas EI's require resistor core wire. So, is the installer supposed to gut a Slick cap and replace the wires, making a whole new harness? That would be a job considering quality resistor wire is larger than aviation solid core wire. The jury is still out on the new Surefly.
 
Last edited:
Slick harness

FasGlass- I dont think I understand your concern about the slick wires- " is the installer supposed to gut a Slick cap and replace the wires, making a whole new harness?"

No- you use everything that is already there. I know having new spark plugs gapped for .036 helps but Jason told me I could leave my current spark plugs and never gap them each year until they are tossed and at that point buy the new plugs.
I took away that its a electronic ignition magneto- only replace the magneto and leave everything else "as is".

Pascal
 
ReidVaitor said:
FasGlass- I dont think I understand your concern about the slick wires- " is the installer supposed to gut a Slick cap and replace the wires, making a whole new harness?"

No- you use everything that is already there. I know having new spark plugs gapped for .036 helps but Jason told me I could leave my current spark plugs and never gap them each year until they are tossed and at that point buy the new plugs.
I took away that its a electronic ignition magneto- only replace the magneto and leave everything else "as is".

Pascal
Click to expand...

The problem is not the plugs or the gap. The problem is using solid core plug wires. You do not use solid core plug wires on electronic ignitions. If you have to use a Slick harness cap to fit on the SureFly case you would have to remove and replace the plug wires. Yes, you can use the Slick harness just as it is but solid core wire causes lots of RFI and produces lower energy to the gap. Magneto electronics are far different than EI electronics. The RFI can be so bad with solid core plug wires that prop balancers will get corrupt timing signals. Happened to me a few times trying to balance customers planes. There are lots of unanswered questions about the SureFly at this point. Is it a magneto with electronic "Points" or a real electronic ignition?
 
Last edited:
FasGlas said:
.....
Is it a magneto with electronic "Points" or a real electronic ignition?
Click to expand...

Does the difference between the two make any difference to us as users?

If it's a solid state device with no moving parts and has the ability to change the timing curve do we really care?
 
az_gila said:
Does the difference between the two make any difference to us as users?

If it's a solid state device with no moving parts and has the ability to change the timing curve do we really care?
Click to expand...

First off, if it plugs into the back of the engine (gears) it has moving parts. Hall effect, magnets, gears, rotor... There is a moving shaft, what is it connected to? We don't know, it's not listed. I think anyone laying down the money for a SureFly should have an idea what they are buying. The site states nearly nothing about this ignition. It might be incredible but it might be junk. There are differences in all types of ignitions and these differences change how they are installed and used. And there's lots more to an ignition than just changing timing. Emags changed timing and they were junk, everyone was a failure waiting to happen.
 
az_gila said:
Does the difference between the two make any difference to us as users?

If it's a solid state device with no moving parts and has the ability to change the timing curve do we really care?
Click to expand...

You do if you are trying to manage RFI. I know non resistor plugs (for example) are a red flag for EI, and there is a warning right on the NGK website saying so. I also have experienced Pmags having a stroke when using non resistor plugs.

I'm not suggesting the SURE-FLY is anything other than it claims, but you sure do want to know what you are dealing with before you start mixing and matching plugs, wires, etc.
 
grubbat said:
I have had great service out of my Pmags and don't consider the product junk at all.
Click to expand...

Let's not confuse the two. Emags are the first version which later evolved into Pmags. They were junk and most all of them failed.
 
Toobuilder said:
You do if you are trying to manage RFI. I know non resistor plugs (for example) are a red flag for EI, and there is a warning right on the NGK website saying so. I also have experienced Pmags having a stroke when using non resistor plugs.

I'm not suggesting the SURE-FLY is anything other than it claims, but you sure do want to know what you are dealing with before you start mixing and matching plugs, wires, etc.
Click to expand...

The only thing you mention is RFI.

I'm sure the FAA certification (and early sales) process will give a quick knowledge of any problems using the stock wires and plugs - if that is what the certified installation manual will call out.
 
FasGlas said:
First off, if it plugs into the back of the engine (gears) it has moving parts. Hall effect, magnets, gears, rotor... There is a moving shaft, what is it connected to? We don't know, it's not listed. I think anyone laying down the money for a SureFly should have an idea what they are buying. The site states nearly nothing about this ignition. It might be incredible but it might be junk. There are differences in all types of ignitions and these differences change how they are installed and used. And there's lots more to an ignition than just changing timing. Emags changed timing and they were junk, everyone was a failure waiting to happen.
Click to expand...

From the web site -

The magneto itself isn't inherently unsafe. What makes an externally powered electronic ignition more safe than a mag is the fact that it is simply never opened-up, inspected and potentially rebuilt/overhauled like a magneto is every 500 hours. No mechanical parts to wear = Zero maintenance = a 0% chance of introducing a maintenance-related ignition failure.

It has a shaft that rotates, but probably not much else that moves. No rotor/distributor is needed since it's a wasted spark system with multiple coils. The Hall effect device that you mention is not usually a moving part.

I think the FAA certification will sort things out, something the eMags you mention never did...:)
 
49clipper

I have one of the first SureFly units on my RV-6 as this time. So far, works extremely well (8 hrs). No RFI that I can detect from radios, headsets, etc. May be, but if so, I sure cannot detect anything from my normal flying or any of my instruments. Of course the CGT rises, in my case about 20-25 degrees. (Now I run about 300-345 at cruise) As well, the EGTs dropped about 100 degrees (for that is worth). Fuel burn went down, starting is the same (I have never had any starting issues cold or hot), I can run LOP about as far as you want to go (typ 55-65 degrees for me). I did install a set of REM37BY plugs on the four cylinders connected to the EI. That way, I could gap them at .036". So far its been plug and play. A non event, except my exhaust pipes are pure white now.
Jim
 
az_gila said:
From the web site -

The magneto itself isn't inherently unsafe. What makes an externally powered electronic ignition more safe than a mag is the fact that it is simply never opened-up, inspected and potentially rebuilt/overhauled like a magneto is every 500 hours. No mechanical parts to wear = Zero maintenance = a 0% chance of introducing a maintenance-related ignition failure.

It has a shaft that rotates, but probably not much else that moves. No rotor/distributor is needed since it's a wasted spark system with multiple coils. The Hall effect device that you mention is not usually a moving part.

I think the FAA certification will sort things out, something the eMags you mention never did...:)
Click to expand...

I still don't buy this. A rotating shaft has bearings, bearings need service sooner or later. Electronics also have life cycles, and heat limitations. And to answer your statement about "Only RFI", no solid core wires will also produce less energy to the gap. As far as certification, they don't have that yet. Things may have to be changed. Emags sorted out when they trashed the concept and went back to the drawing board than made the pmags, which still needed many flaws repaired.

Time and usage will tell on these. Only a few being in service right now there's no way to know what their future will be. The SureFly is definitely an alternative to the pmags as far as plug and play. It's the red flags I don't like. We'll be watching.. :cool:
 
Last edited:
FasGlas said:
I still don't buy this. A rotating shaft has bearings, bearings need service sooner or later. Electronics also have life cycles, and heat limitations. And to answer your statement about "Only RFI", no solid core wires will also produce less energy to the gap. As far as certification, they don't have that yet. Things may have to be changed. Emags sorted out when they trashed the concept and went back to the drawing board than made the pmags, which still needed many flaws repaired.

Time and usage will tell on these. Only a few being in service right now there's no way to know what their future will be. The SureFly is definitely an alternative to the pmags as far as plug and play. It's the red flags I don't like. We'll be watching.. :cool:
Click to expand...

I agree it's a wait-n-see, but I'm not as pessimistic as your view.

The rotating shaft only needs two bearings with little load on them. I think modern technology can produce sealed bearing that can go the 2000 hours on the back of a Lycoming.

As for the electronics, automotive electronics are designed for hot under-the hood locations and as far as I can tell the Slicks are designed for under 200F operation. Quite a trivial number for modern automotive electronics. A long time ago, when I was at Hughes-GMHE buying custom integrated circuits from Delco they were quite proud that their component testing exceed the Mil Spec testing we usually bought parts to. I'm sure that technology has only got better in the following two decades...:)

I think it's a good approach they are taking and the plan to go for the larger certified market should get us all a better product.

At around $500 for a 500 hr overhaul from a reputable magneto shop, selling a Slick as a core and buying a $1250 brand new part with no 500 hr inspection tear down required is actually a good deal. :)
 
Last edited:
Any Field Reports??

I was hoping to hear from anyone who has put on some hours on this new ignition System.
I am especially interested in the 6 cylinder Surefly System.
Anyone?
 
49clipper

Ernie,
35 hrs and zero issues. Time will tell. The only thing that is different is the light white color of the exhaust pipes. My cruise chts are running from 290-330f typically. My 320 has always run very cool though. Those went up very slightly after installing the SureFly. Peak EGT used to be about 1425f but now is about 100f cooler. Normal I think, due to all the fuel being used in the cylinder and not in the exhaust pipe.
I like the fact its just about plug and play and I don't have to worry about setting the advance, it does all the work. YMMV
Jim
RV-6 O-320-D1A
 
Power wire?

Thanks Jim,

I am just a little impatient an curious but the info on SureFly's website is just a bit scarce.
I see on the spec sheet there is a P lead terminal and case ground as well as a power wire terminal specifying a 500mA average current draw.
I have independent switches for my magneto and LSE ignition.
Do you now switch the power wire on and off or simply keep the magneto wiring in place and add a switch or CB to power the SureFly? I assume it would be on with the master or better yet like the LSE, bypass the master and wire directly to the battery via a PCB. This would ensure power to the ignition would stay on even if all other power had to be turned off for any electrical emergencies.
How did you solve this issue?
 
49clipper

Ernie,
I gave that power source a lot of thought. I kept thinking that I needed to put a separate toggle switch on the panel (with breaker) and use it to turn on the power to the surefly. But, after lots of thought, and talking to them, I decided against it as it was just more wiring (and complication) than needed. I fused the power wire from the master switch. (I did lose a master solenoid once on this airplane, so that I guess would kill the ignition) I guess one could wire it on the hot side of the solenoid and switch it. There are all kinds of ways to do the same thing. but, if the master is off, the system is dead, period.
The one thing I would never ever, ever do is remove both mags. Not on my airplane. In my 44 years of flying and over 4000hrs, I have had 3 engine out landings, but none were caused from a mag. I did have one mag quit once, but the other one got me home. Mags are simple and if you keep them in good shape, best device ever made, but I do love the efficiency of the electronic ignition system.
Jim
 
How would you replace the aircraft plug connectors with automotive plug connectors on a Slick harness?

George
 
I may be wrong or not understanding your question. I believe you use slick harness and standard aircraft plugs, or replace harness to use automotive plugs and adapters. If I’m incorrect, and I am often, we both will learn something. I like learning.
 
BlndRvtr said:
How would you replace the aircraft plug connectors with automotive plug connectors on a Slick harness?

George
Click to expand...

For lack of context, I shall assume you are trying to change out your massive electrode aircraft spark plugs with automotive style spark plugs at the same time that you replace your existing Slick mag with a SureFly. If so, I don't think SureFly has this option.

So perhaps someone else here on VAF could chime in on keeping the Slick distributor cap and replacing its original leads with automotive style.

Also keep in mind if replacing Bendix/CMI magneto with SureFly you will need to source a Slick cap since SureFly was designed for the Slick harness.

Jim
 
My understanding is you can increase the gap on the aviation plugs to get a-bigger spark so you getting some of the benefits of an automotive plug, just not as cheap. Also these guys were converting slick harnesses to use auto plugs. http://g3ignition.com/magmod.html
 
Last edited:
jliltd said:
For lack of context, I shall assume you are trying to change out your massive electrode aircraft spark plugs with automotive style spark plugs at the same time that you replace your existing Slick mag with a SureFly. If so, I don't think SureFly has this option.

So perhaps someone else here on VAF could chime in on keeping the Slick distributor cap and replacing its original leads with automotive style. Jim
Click to expand...
Bingo! That is what I was trying to say. I want to use auto plugs with a SureFly and Slick cap. I realize SureFly does not advertise such an arrangement, since they seem to be focused on the certified market, but as experimental, we are free to try new things.
So to rephrase the question, how do I put auto wires in a Slick cap?

George
 
BlndRvtr said:
Bingo! That is what I was trying to say. I want to use auto plugs with a SureFly and Slick cap. I realize SureFly does not advertise such an arrangement, since they seem to be focused on the certified market, but as experimental, we are free to try new things.
So to rephrase the question, how do I put auto wires in a Slick cap?

George
Click to expand...

As posted above, G3i can do it for you, or they will sell you the DIY instructions download for $30: http://g3ignition.com/magmod.html
 
SureFly claims you can use auto plugs on their website:

?The SIM is compatible with all automotive and aviation spark plugs. SureFly?s FAA STC?s do not grant permission to use automotive spark plugs in FAA certified engines. You may only use spark plugs FAA-approved for your application.?

FAQ section
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top