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RV-10 Panel Design

AviatorJ

Well Known Member
I started my panel design on a plan piece of paper with a pencil. After awhile I moved to MS Paint where I would cut and paste things together in a Frankenstein manner trying to get something that made sense. Yesterday I decided to step it up to Visio and include it in my Electrical plans book.

This allowed me to show a bit more detail and move things around without trying to cut and paste a JPEG. I'm at a point now I thought I would share it out and solicit any feedback. Visio allows me to show quite a bit of detail that I wasn't able to do in paint. Should note this isn't to scale per se.



Here are some design considerations/features

  • Slightly different starting system. You will push both Mag toggles up (Momentary) to ground the right mag and engage the starter. Once started both mags remain running. The VPX disengages any future starting attempt while the engine is turning. I may add a temporary hidden relay or wire it in with the strobes as an added precaution.
  • Gave each Alternator it's own switch. Again the VPX prevents both from being on at the same time, so figured I would use two switches.
  • Using illuminated Custom labeled rocker switches. A bit bigger than a traditional switches but they should all fit as shown.
  • The Ram Air switch opens up the Rod Bowers Ram Air to by pass the filter. Used in cruise or as an Alt Air source.
  • Prefer the AP Panel above the MFD.
  • G5 will act as an additional HSI in normal flying. In an emergency if the IBBS fails then it will be the PFD.
  • Can do a remote audio panel but I like the buttons.
  • TOGA button fairly easy to get to if I have to go around. Might be a better spot once I get the throttle quadrant just don't know.
  • Stick mappings are shown as well. I'm foregoing any pilot disconnect function right now. I'm close enough to that person riding right seat I can slap their hand. If it was a tandem I could see it being much more useful.
  • The far right area as well as the bottom center area I kept clear for now. Possibly might use that space for a paper pad or Ipad mount or something like that.

Anyhow that's what it looks like for now... high probability that things will change before my final install.
 
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Just 1 radio? If you plan on IFR I highly recommend adding a 2nd Nav/Com like an SL30--redundancy is your friend.

Also on your stick switch mapping the A/P disconnect and CWS are typically the same button--Push and release for the disconnect, push and hold for CWS.
 
Just 1 radio? If you plan on IFR I highly recommend adding a 2nd Nav/Com like an SL30--redundancy is your friend.

Also on your stick switch mapping the A/P disconnect and CWS are typically the same button--Push and release for the disconnect, push and hold for CWS.

There are two radios, I'm putting in a GTR 20R behind the panel.

The only time I've been in a plane with CWS had it separately. I'll have to think about that one.
 
Random thoughts

I'm in the process of doing the same layout, but using a standard panel - so don't have a good feeling for where the conflicts are with structure in the Aerosport, but you'll likely have to check.

The AP controller will likely have to move down or left to miss the center panel support. (It comes down about an inch in the middle of the panel)

My preference would be to have the fuel boost moved to the far right in that switch group. It is the switch (along with alt air) you need to find when the engine stumbles, so it should be hard to miss.

Another thought: I like my screens side by side, but my current plan has them either side of a radio stack as far left as possible so that I don't have to reach as far when ATC gives me a long reroute. Center console?

USB looks like it will be replaced by USB-C and likely a few more standards over the life of the plane, I'm going old school with a cig. lighter adapter, and a flush USB adapter to future proof.


Derek
 
I'm in the process of doing the same layout, but using a standard panel ....

Another thought: I like my screens side by side, but my current plan has them either side of a radio stack as far left as possible so that I don't have to reach as far when ATC gives me a long reroute.
Derek

Exactly correct. Two 10" screens with the GTN-650 in the middle, all shifted left so both screens are clearly visible from the pilot seat. The GTN-650 is hard enough to mash buttons on when it is right in front of you. I also used the stock panel as it makes modifications much easier and cheaper. It was only 18 months from first flight to first panel mod. A new $27 piece of aluminum, cut some holes, paint and done.

Carl
 
If you're curious here are the details on the USB Charger.

My design philosophy with the panel is similar to what drove my electrical system choices and that's to find a balance I'm comfortable with. Being a technologist I know it is impossible to completely future proof any implementation. So I did what I tell my customers to do and that was to find what I need now and in the immediate 18 month future. Outside of that window it's too hard to predict... think about the guy who bought the latest and greatest flip phone, the day before the smartphone release...

Some things I expect I might change around are fairly easy to do. For example if once I'm flying I want to move a switch then I can move the actuator and remap the VPX. If I need another charger type I can remove the one above and install whatever Carlington product fits the same dimensions. If I was to do a major avionics upgrade then I can work within the confines of the Aerosport panel and get new panel inserts for $100. Which in avionics land will be the least of my expenses.

Interesting take on putting a the GTN 650 between the PFD/MFD. I guess if I did something like that I would get used to it but the way I see it I'm more concerned with the information on the PFD/MFD. I fly with a GTN 650 now and it's in the typical radio stack place and I have no issues using it. The RV-10 isn't that big that I feel it would be a stretch to reach over and manipulate it. Would be interested to hear from anyone using the Aerosport EFIS 10" panel with a GTN 650 if they feel otherwise.
 
I don't remember if their 10" panel has the avionics stack tilited towards the pilot or not?
That might help the reach and view if it is.

I know you have a G5 shown, any considerations for a different vendors product to help tiebreak a failure in IMC???

I'm obviously still a ways behind you, but these kinds of topics are of great interest.
 
Part of Garmin's selling point on the G5 was that it's dissimilar code/hardware from their G3X line. What I'm showing here all has a high possibility of being something different by the time I get to the ordering Avionics part. Who knows what will be out in the next year or so.

Also don't believe the panel is tilted towards the left seat.
 
Why not quick panel/Stein?

Out of curiosity, why not use the Quick Panel set up by AFS or Stein develop it? Seems like a lot less work, they have done this multiple times prior and know what will/won't work well together.

I don't have any background with avionics and honestly feel like I would forget to install something needed/wanted or do it incorrectly. This is where the experience of Rob or Stein seem to come in nicely.

I don't mean to come across saying we shouldn't design our own, because this is experimental and meant to learn from.

Really just curious what others think

Shawn
 
...Also don't believe the panel is tilted towards the left seat.

Justin,
If you're using the 10" EFIS panel from Aerosport then yes, the center/avionics section is tilted to the left for better visibility. I have the same panel in my 10 and will post a picture later today. Your layout is very similar to mine.
 
Personally, I like having the 2 screens in front of the pilot. It gives lots of real estate for mapping and weather, usually when it is needed the most. When the screens are split on left and right side you tend to use part of the left screen for mapping and end up not using the screen on the right side as much.
What you should consider unless you have already bought the GTN 650 is to use the Avidyne IFD540. It has a bluetooth keyboard that you can mount with Velcro right above your screens on the pilots side, or on the center console. It is super easy to grab the keyboard and perform all of your routing changes on it, eliminating the need to reach over to the right side to do it.

I have mine set up this way, and the only thing I touch the IFD 540 for is to initially check the communications with the EFIS on power up. Afer that, everything can be done through the keyboard. Even though it is not that far to reach and use the front panel on the IFD 540. :)

Bottom line is what I tell all of my customers: set it up the way YOU want it. You are the one who is going to be sitting behind the panel and flying it. How you and your brain process information while in flight is the most important thing in creating the best ergonomic panel for you.


Vic
 
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I can only comment for myself but the thought of using a premade panel never occurred to me. The customization aspect and being able to make a panel to match your specific preferences and flow is a huge draw. I don't mind the extra work and effort and actually look forward to it. I am going to get some of the interconnection harnesses built for me but that's more of a quality item.

I've not looked into the Avidyne IFD540.It has a bluetooth keyboard that you can mount with Velcro right above your screens on the pilots side, or on the center console. It is super easy to grab the keyboard and perform all of your routing changes on it, eliminating the need to reach over to the right side to do it.

You should plan for a dual bus system and Do not supply the field of the backup alternator thru the VPX!

If the VPX dies the IBBS will provide power to a few key instruments. If that fails then it's the G5. I'm not looking for complete redundancy like you would have on a commercial plane, but more of enough to get me out of IMC if there's a problem.
 
Out of curiosity, why not use the Quick Panel set up by AFS or Stein develop it? Seems like a lot less work, they have done this multiple times prior and know what will/won't work well together.

I don't have any background with avionics and honestly feel like I would forget to install something needed/wanted or do it incorrectly. This is where the experience of Rob or Stein seem to come in nicely.

I don't mean to come across saying we shouldn't design our own, because this is experimental and meant to learn from.

Really just curious what others think

Shawn

Well, as with building itself, it depends on a number of variables. Builder's skill, cost, and desire/interest all factor into making this a personal decision--there's no right or wrong answer. However, the logic is no different than the actual decision to build a plane in the first place over buying something already flying. For some, it's about doing as much of the project themselves whether for enjoyment, education, budget, some other reason, plus any and all combinations thereof. For others it's about trading money for time in order to get in the air as quick as possible in a plane they still built (QB vs SB) or because they simply don't want to be troubled with the task for whatever reason. However, in the end, to quote Robert Heinlien, "there ain't no such thing as free lunch" meaning each decision has a set of consequences associated with it.

In my own case, I chose to go with building my own panel but with a partially pre-wired harness which gave me about a 40% head-start. I went this route for 2 reasons: First and foremost I wanted to do the work even though I basically has zero experience. Secondly, I wanted to save some cash by doing the work myself (not an insignificant chunk of change). And yes I understand there was opportunity cost involved but I can discount it as I know that the time I spent building my own panel would not have been put to productive use doing something else as I'm generally a lazy bast@#d :D.
 
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....
What you should consider unless you have already bought the GTN 650 is to use the Avidyne IFD540.

Vic

The Avidyne IFD540 price tag is ~$14K, even more grossly overpriced than the GTN-650.

One of the main drivers for me to use the SkyView system is that I get an excellent display of the GTN-650 functionality without blowing several thousand dollars on other options for TSO GPS navigators.

Carl
 
You should plan for a dual bus system and Do not supply the field of the backup alternator thru the VPX!

Could not agree more.

If you use the nice B&C standby alternator it will pick up load automatically if you lose the primary alternator. Power backup without pilot action is a good design objective.

Carl
 
Justin,
Here is a close up picture of the 10" EFIS panel showing you the left side of the center section and how it's canted back. It's roughly a 1" set back on the left side.

263dc2u.jpg
 
Justin,
Here is a close up picture of the 10" EFIS panel showing you the left side of the center section and how it's canted back. It's roughly a 1" set back on the left side.

Jason that's a good looking panel! Nice to see the spacing in a picture. Is that 305 butted up to the left of the frame piece behind the panel? So it's fine to put that on either side?

Also what are those panel screws you used?
 
G5 on an angle

Jason/Justin,

My Glasair had a D10A installed in an angled panel like yours. It would constantly show a bank as did the mechanical horizon that preceded it. (About 8 degrees in my case). Eventually it bothered me enough that a made a bracket to make it straight again. (made it parallel with the panel, which leveled it out)

With that experience I did a check of the G5 manual and found:

"Mount the G5 with the connector aligned to within 1.0? of the longitudinal axis
of the aircraft (display bezel parallel to the wing spar). Do not install the G5 in a
panel that is angled to the left or right with respect to the wing spar."

In the case of a G3X system I suspect it will be more problematic if you hook it up to the can bus as it might generate mis-compares.

You may want to check with Steve and co, at g3expert.

Derek
 
Jason that's a good looking panel! Nice to see the spacing in a picture. Is that 305 butted up to the left of the frame piece behind the panel? So it's fine to put that on either side?

Also what are those panel screws you used?

Thanks Justin. The 305 ended up being centered between the F-1044 and F1045 ribs. I think if you set it centered over the left or right panel you might have an interference issue. Take a look at where the F-1044 rib is (red circle) in the picture.

344zh2x.jpg


The screws I used for the panel came from McMaster, part number 91355A075 - Hex Drive Flanged Rounded Head Screw, Black-Oxide Alloy Steel, 8-32 Thread Size, 1/2" Long. The finish on them blends very well with the matte powder coat on the panels. You will have to use 9 flat head screws along the bottom and right side of the panel. This is because the two screens sit over top of these screws and button heads won't allow the panels to be flush. In this case I used screws from Micro Fasteners, part number FCMXS0808 - 8-32 x 1/2 T15 - 100 Degree Flat Head 6 Lobe Drive Machine Screws - Stainless 100 pcs/pkg and just powder coated the heads the same as the panel.

Derek,
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Dynon. I read that too in the G5 installation section but I haven't seen any issues with it so far. I've done a fair amount of configuration on the ground both with the aircraft inside and outside the hangar.
 
Jason,

A little more info: in my case both the Dynon and the mechanical horizon were fine on the ground, they picked up their slant in the air. I've not wrapped my head enough around the problem (and gyroscopes in general) to understand why, but they didn't like flying sideways through the air.

Derek
 
I'd put the ELT activation panel away from anything you might touch in flight. Was in some pretty bad turbulence once, and I reached up to switch com's, and activated the ELT😳.

Another issue I had, went with a nifty panel mount USB charger from Stein. It gave up in the first 25 hours. When I called Stein, he said "we don't carry those anymore", and it was not a standard size! He ended up finding one, and mailing one out at no cost, but the next time I might not be so lucky. I'd use a round cigarette lighter size, or buy a few to have a replacement if one goes out. I got some chargers from PowerWerkz?? It is a high output USB charger that has a 6" pigtail that hangs out just below the panel. That way I am not locked into a certain hole in my panel if it goes out.
 
Pretty Much what I have

Looks pretty much like my set up.. I Love it. In my situation, the reality of someone flying in the right seat is very slim. And the times people have flown from there, it wasn't an issue.
Food for thought. While That mini Garmin didn't come out until my panel was pretty much complete, and I would have been tempted to go all Garmin if I had the choice, in reality that Garmin is substantially smaller than the GRT Mini-X. If I had to rely on the GRT, it's just big enough to do the job from the pilot seat in my plane. JUST FYI.
From a day to day perspective, I mostly use my left hand on the MFD and rarely have to touch anything else except the Audio panel when I want to change coms. (A the time, the PSE did things that Garmin didn't offer, now they do. OH well...I love how good my audio sounds).
For CC's, I use Foreflight to bluetooth my flight pans into the 650, so except for about 2 button presses, i rarely even have to touch it either.

 
In my situation said:
That was my thinking. I note however that for the last 100 hours or so my butt has been mostly in the right hand seat as my Naval Aviator son and son-in-law got time in the RV-10. Something to consider if there is ever chance of someone else learning on your plane, or if you sell it.

I offer that having the left screen as far left on the panel as it will go, then the radio stack, then the right screen you end up with both screens set up for the pilot, and the right seat person gets something that is usable.

BTW - it is amazing how many bad habits an F-18 jockey has that need breaking.

Carl
 
I offer that having the left screen as far left on the panel as it will go, then the radio stack, then the right screen you end up with both screens set up for the pilot, and the right seat person gets something that is usable.
Carl,

Can you show us a picture of what you're describing?
 
[QUOTE While That mini Garmin didn't come out until my panel was pretty much complete, and I would have been tempted to go all Garmin if I had the choice, in reality that Garmin is substantially smaller than the GRT Mini-X. If I had to rely on the GRT, it's just big enough to do the job from the pilot seat in my plane. JUST FYI.
/QUOTE]

John,
I'm in the same boat as you regarding the G5 and GRT Mini. Also have the GRT Mini and the cutout is substantially larger than for G5. Are you happy with your GRT Mini display and stability?
On another point, I am under the impression that your backup flight instrument/s must be in the primary field of view of the pilot for IFR??
Johan
 
[QUOTE While That mini Garmin didn't come out until my panel was pretty much complete, and I would have been tempted to go all Garmin if I had the choice, in reality that Garmin is substantially smaller than the GRT Mini-X. If I had to rely on the GRT, it's just big enough to do the job from the pilot seat in my plane. JUST FYI.
/QUOTE]

John,
I'm in the same boat as you regarding the G5 and GRT Mini. Also have the GRT Mini and the cutout is substantially larger than for G5. Are you happy with your GRT Mini display and stability?
On another point, I am under the impression that your backup flight instrument/s must be in the primary field of view of the pilot for IFR??
Johan

It never came up, and my plane is certified IFR. I could fly with it easy... (Also, as far as I know a backup system isn't required... there's a lot of opinions out there that sound like rules. Look at everyone who has JUST two or three screens and no back up, yet the plane is IFR.. there's probably hundreds if not thousands)....I like it. It's not as easy to navigate and set up as the Garmin stuff, but the display is perfect and it's pretty stupid simple. plus I like the fact that's completely independent of the other systems and it's got it's own back up batt.

And for a right seat pilot, it's right in front of them, it provides everything you need plus synthetic vision.
 
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[QUOTE

On another point, I am under the impression that your backup flight instrument/s must be in the primary field of view of the pilot for IFR??
Johan

Neither the FARs nor your operating limits requires backup flight instruments. This may not be too wise, but they are not required so you can put them wherever you like. OTOH GPS boxes used for ifr need to be 'approved', which usually means TSO'd. And the TSO requires certain annunciation to be in your field of view. But the DARs seldom enforce this.
 
Neither the FARs nor your operating limits requires backup flight instruments. This may not be too wise, but they are not required so you can put them wherever you like. OTOH GPS boxes used for ifr need to be 'approved', which usually means TSO'd. And the TSO requires certain annunciation to be in your field of view. But the DARs seldom enforce this.


It is not up to the DAR's to enforce this. The Operating Limitations clearly state that for night flight and Instrument flight the aircraft must meet the requirements of the FAR's.

Vic
 
Lots of opinions:)

Justin.

Your layout looks as if you put lots of thought in it...Well done. Always remember it needs to fit your needs and it is your panel you will be flying behind.

I just finished my IFR and thought would share my experience as to configuration. I have AFS and ifd540, sl30. Grt mini, and everything that goes with. My instructor flew behind the latest competitor panel recently before doing my training and he was very impressed with our setup. I am not saying you should change manufacturer but at least look at them all to get more confused:) in our experience the IFD540 ( which is not 14k) along with AFS is a incredible package. But better yet....And this is where we see the value..The team at AFS lead by Rob H is the best there is by far...Their support has more value than the hardware itself. Flying IFR in IMC is not for the faint hearted...For us we could not have chosen a better package. Just my opinion...Good luck going forward
 
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