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Muuvie

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I came across a classifieds ad for a 15 year old RV-8 that was listed for sale for in the $110K's range with an O-360 at 40% to TBO. I don't want to post his page or go into specifics because I am not trying to start a flame war. I've been around several hobbies that feature expensive equipment transactions, most recently skydiving...and you don't criticize a selling point. If you think it's too high, just move on.

So the point of this is that I'm concerned I'm not being conservative enough in my own build plans. I'm trying to buy a empennage and wings kit next month based on the numbers I came up with myself and there is a discrepancy. At $25K for the aircraft, $33K for the A1B6, $4K for paint (I paint,) $9K for the CS Whirlwind prop and $15K for avionics, I'm looking at $82K as a baseline before any other mods. This almost $25K less than the selling price with a 0 time engine. Am I not accounting for something? I thought I was being fairly conservative, and I don't want to start down a rabbit hole I wasn't expecting.
 
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I came across a classifieds ad for a 15 year old RV-8 that was listed for sale for in the $110K's range with an O-360 at 40% to TBO. I don't want to post his page or go into specifics because I am not trying to start a flame war. I've been around several hobbies that feature expensive equipment transactions, most recently skydiving...and you don't criticize a selling point. If you think it's too high, just move on.

So the point of this is that I'm concerned I'm not being conservative enough in my own build plans. I'm trying to buy a empennage and wings kit next month based on the numbers I came up with myself and there is a discrepancy. At $25K for the aircraft, $33K for the A1B6, $4K for paint (I paint,) $9K for the CS Whirlwind prop and $15K for avionics, I'm looking at $82K as a baseline before any other mods. This almost $25K less than the selling price with a 0 time engine. Am I not accounting for something? I thought I was being fairly conservative, and I don't want to start down a rabbit hole I wasn't expecting.

There are a few other costs in the build (interior and tools, for example). But, let's be realistic, for the "finished airplane" premium of <$30k you can be flying tomorrow and spend your evenings and weekends out flying, as opposed to in the shop. The other factor is that prices are negotiable. Who's to say that airplane will sell for $110K?
 
Thing about sale price is they can put any number out there they want, reasonable or not. Doesn't mean it will ever be sold at that price.
 
Cost depends on build details. I don?t know if you can get an IFR panel for $15K. I fact, I?m not sure you can get a VFR panel for that if it?s glass with ADSB, maybe you can, but things get more expensive as time goes on, and if you start building today, you wont be finished for a couple years - if you?re good. $4K for paint might be possible if you do it yourself, but it will likely take you 3 months, and what?s that worth? Did you ad a FWF kit (over $5K)? Fiberglass supplies - easily north of $500? Lights - $2-3K conservitively. How about ?miscellaneous? that can easily top $5K (for misc hardware, fittings, electrical connectors, tools you didn?t know you needed, beer, etc.), and the interior with seatbelts will be anywhere from $2K to $10K for a two seater. I just finished my third RV - an RV8 - and I?m at just under $124K for everything. I?ve kept detailed receipts for everything, including fuel to heat my hangar last winter. I have a single screen G3X touch, G5 backup, GTN 625, GNC 200 & 20, two axis autopilot, and a GTX ADSB transponder - so it?s a nice, but basic IFR panel, but the point is, you should understand the total cost picture as close as you can before you decide to start a project like this (and it doesn?t sound like you do at this point) and then ad at least 10%. Coming in under budget pleases the family and you. Coming in over can destroy it.
Good luck. Your second build - if you do one - will be better, but not less expensive.....
 
Before I brought my RV8 I briefly looked at building one, took about 5 mins to realise that unless you have the space, the time and accept the disruption to your life for years it's not for everyone, it was a no brainer for me, I bought a used plane and started flying the next day or so not started building! Each to their own of course but for me I saved $50K (approx $160K to finish one down under) and several years of " I wish I had bought one flying",:)
I got the Vans smile instantly, for that I didn't want to wait years! -:)
At the end of the day what 'price' do you put on your life/time?
 
Cost depends on build details. I don’t know if you can get an IFR panel for $15K. I fact, I’m not sure you can get a VFR panel for that if it’s glass with ADSB, maybe you can, but things get more expensive as time goes on, and if you start building today, you wont be finished for a couple years - if you’re good. $4K for paint might be possible if you do it yourself, but it will likely take you 3 months, and what’s that worth? Did you ad a FWF kit (over $5K)? Fiberglass supplies - easily north of $500? Lights - $2-3K conservitively. How about ‘miscellaneous’ that can easily top $5K (for misc hardware, fittings, electrical connectors, tools you didn’t know you needed, beer, etc.), and the interior with seatbelts will be anywhere from $2K to $10K for a two seater. I just finished my third RV - an RV8 - and I’m at just under $124K for everything. I’ve kept detailed receipts for everything, including fuel to heat my hangar last winter. I have a single screen G3X touch, G5 backup, GTN 625, GNC 200 & 20, two axis autopilot, and a GTX ADSB transponder - so it’s a nice, but basic IFR panel, but the point is, you should understand the total cost picture as close as you can before you decide to start a project like this (and it doesn’t sound like you do at this point) and then ad at least 10%. Coming in under budget pleases the family and you. Coming in over can destroy it.
Good luck. Your second build - if you do one - will be better, but not less expensive.....

That's the reply I was afraid of, you've brought up a couple things I did not account for. At least I know I will not be building a Garmin cockpit, too rich for my blue blood, but I do believe an IFR panel is possible with Dynon and a used 430. If I have to bail on glass, then so be it.

Before I brought my RV8 I briefly looked at building one, took about 5 mins to realise that unless you have the space, the time and accept the disruption to your life for years it's not for everyone, it was a no brainer for me, I bought a used plane and started flying the next day or so not started building! Each to their own of course but for me I saved $50K (approx $160K to finish one down under) and several years of " I wish I had bought one flying",:)
I got the Vans smile instantly, for that I didn't want to wait years! -:)
At the end of the day what 'price' do you put on your life/time?

It makes sense to me. The two complications I have with buying were the level of trust required in purchasing an airplane someone built out of their hangar and the cost associated. I'm building because it will take two years and that's the only way I can afford it. When it's all said and done, I'll only owe on the engine and that will be a hard loan to get...
 
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Van's are one of the few experimentals that sell for more than their components are worth.

The market has born out this truth. Why? Has to be market exposure and support, because they are not really that different from many other low wing metal planes in build techniques, construction, etal. But is what it is, and good on Van for being in the right place at the right time. Most all other EABs will go for 25 to 50cents on the build dollar, unless your looking at something really esoteric...like JN3 replica etc...

Still, OP you can see the 30/30/30 rule is a pretty good rule of thumb on build costs. As far as 2 yrs to complete a project, that depends on how close it is to where you live. If its in your living room (ie garage), and youre not married, yup you got it! If not, double and add 50%. Life happens. For sure, with building, its the journey, not the destination. If you're more motivated by the destination, forget it and buy cause you'll never finish a project. You'll buy in the end anyway. Just a hard truth.
 
The market has born out this truth. Why? Has to be market exposure and support, because they are not really that different from many other low wing metal planes in build techniques, construction, etal. But is what it is, and good on Van for being in the right place at the right time. Most all other EABs will go for 25 to 50cents on the build dollar, unless your looking at something really esoteric...like JN3 replica etc...

Still, OP you can see the 30/30/30 rule is a pretty good rule of thumb on build costs. As far as 2 yrs to complete a project, that depends on how close it is to where you live. If its in your living room (ie garage), and youre not married, yup you got it! If not, double and add 50%. Life happens. For sure, with building, its the journey, not the destination. If you're more motivated by the destination, forget it and buy cause you'll never finish a project. You'll buy in the end anyway. Just a hard truth.

Garage!! :)
And before I even elected to have the kits mailed here vs. the airport, I checked with the county zoning office and they don't care about me eventually departing from the field in my backyard. I want the journey, I also want said journey to not have too many $5K surprises.
 
Prices are everywhere with RVs. So is build quality. So are engines, panels, avionics, interiors etc. The one constant is the decisions one makes when either building or buying. You either make good decisions or poor ones.

Remember when your building your also learning and that means a few mistakes and what you do to address those mistakes. If your buying (whether it’s a complete RV or the components to an RV) you’re trying to balance your needs, desires and affordability with unknowns such as remaining usefulness, fit and functionality, quality and price. Either way you go there’s going to be good and not so good decisions being made.

Remember, whether you build or purchase an RV eventually someone else will probably own it in the future. That means other people will inspect it and value it. What I’m getting at is the best way to own an RV is to always consider the next buyer in your decision making process. Their valuation will become your value someday. Be sure to consult “RV experts” whether you build a new one or buy one built by someone else. Get their opinion and advice of the decisions you make. It will save you both money and time.

As to affordability, consider outside financial assistance. There are many ways to afford a quality built airplane. AOPA has aircraft financing programs and so do other financial institutions. Personally I used a home equity loan (HELOC) and financed the purchase over a self decided five year period. Cheapest interest available with flexible pay back options because I could decide each month how much over the minimum requirement I could pay that month to reach my payoff date goal.

Decisions, decisions! You must decide.
 
Add shipping to the cost and it has gotten very expensive. $3-4K would not be out of line in the US. Firewall fwd adds up too, oil cooler, exhaust, hoses, cam locks.....
 
Garage!! :)
And before I even elected to have the kits mailed here vs. the airport, I checked with the county zoning office and they don't care about me eventually departing from the field in my backyard. I want the journey, I also want said journey to not have too many $5K surprises.

I get it. I'm a builder. I love to build. I wasnt totally sure when I started my build and it wasnt until I got a motor for my project that I figured out it was true. But looking back all the way to childhood and then fwd, I can see that I've always been afflicted with the build disease haha.

But yeah a garage build is key IMHO. Its 10 steps from my living room couch to my airplane, and tho I dont spend every waking hour in the garage, my thoughts are always churning on the next item on the build list. There are low points - always low points - but usually its about something that I have no idea what to do on or am confused.... even for me, VAF is a godsend, and I'm thankful to be tolerated here.
 
Value for Cost

I was at the point 4 1/2 years ago at age 67 (I still work now) trying to decide whether to build a kit or buy a flying airplane. I decided to build. Thinking back now on that time and what I was considering, given the then current circumstances.

These are the tips of the iceberg:

COSTS:
.commitments and time to get to a flying airplane
.buy Van's kits
.buy lots of tools (but I have a tool fetish! and that puts tools in the value list too)
.buy equipment for the instrument panel
.buy an engine and prop, etc
.buy lots of other stuff
.costs spread over time or large one-time dump
.close-by space to build (I do have my own hangar at an airpark) vs off-site
.unknown life occurrences might arise that will get in the way of a kit build

VALUE:
.more tools in the shop!
.pride in your efforts to build (assemble) you own airplane - I enjoy the build
.know what I have vs buying an unknown (a flying airplane is somewhat more of an unknown no matter how good a pre-buy)
.new stuff or old stuff
.a complete airplane is more like money in the bank than a kit-in-progress

The decision to build, once made, is a very big commitment - a very big commitment. Each step forward commits you exponentially. The value of the kit as it progresses might get you 60% to 70% of your kit's total materials' investment at any point while it is still a project vs a completed flying airplane. When complete and flying I would believe that it is worth 100% or more of the total materials investment; at least for the first year or two.
 
Nice thing about aluminum planes is it's fairly easy to tell the build quality if you know what you're looking at. A glass airplane easily hides nasty things.
 
Nice thing about aluminum planes is it's fairly easy to tell the build quality if you know what you're looking at. A glass airplane easily hides nasty things.

That's very true. Nothing like a metal plane to inspect and or repair!
When I first started looking at buying a plane beyond my Piper spam can I wanted tandem seating, conventional u/c and slider canopy (for that unbeatable cool look) there really was only one choice in the end, the RV8, Vans best design ever with style and performance!:)
 
SNIP...

So the point of this is that I'm concerned I'm not being conservative enough in my own build plans. I'm trying to buy a empennage and wings kit next month based on the numbers I came up with myself and there is a discrepancy. At $25K for the aircraft, $33K for the A1B6, $4K for paint (I paint,) $9K for the CS Whirlwind prop and $15K for avionics, I'm looking at $82K as a baseline before any other mods. This almost $25K less than the selling price with a 0 time engine. Am I not accounting for something? I thought I was being fairly conservative, and I don't want to start down a rabbit hole I wasn't expecting.

I kept a detailed spreadsheet of actual cost for the RV-10, and am doing the same for the RV-8 project that is almost done.

While there are always options to trim cost, I offer your estimates fall short of what you will spend. As example for my RV-8:
- Slow build kit
- New engine and prop from Van?s
- Full IFR package (dual SkyView displayed, GTN-650, etc.
- Do my own firewall forward build)
- Do all my wiring and panel build
- Do my own painting

Total cost for just material, $115K.

Carl
 
There?s a RV8 on controller that was listed for $200k. It?s down to $180k now, looks like an awesome airplane. The asking price surprised me
 
Van's best design and performance

"here really was only one choice in the end, the RV8, Vans best design ever with style and performance!"

Not wanting to start a war, but RV-4 is my pick :)
 
Van's are one of the few experimentals that sell for more than their components are worth.
I would correct that to say that they *CAN* sell for more than their components are worth.

I couldn't have built my -6 for the price I paid for it, but I bought it in the middle of the housing market crash... The seller wasn't affected by the crash (real estate-wise), but he wanted to sell for other reasons... and as they say, a low tide lowers all boats.

Good used RV's still show up on the market priced well under the cost to build from time to time... There was just a thread recently talking about $40K RV's, and two or three people posted that they recently found theirs at that price, in fine condition.

Not everyone wants (or needs) a showplane, dual 10" glass panels, IFR, etc. Many are content with a solid, basic VFR aircraft that has the potential for upgrades later on when/if desired.
 
I would correct that to say that they *CAN* sell for more than their components are worth.

I couldn't have built my -6 for the price I paid for it, but I bought it in the middle of the housing market crash... The seller wasn't affected by the crash (real estate-wise), but he wanted to sell for other reasons... and as they say, a low tide lowers all boats.

Good used RV's still show up on the market priced well under the cost to build from time to time... There was just a thread recently talking about $40K RV's, and two or three people posted that they recently found theirs at that price, in fine condition.

Not everyone wants (or needs) a showplane, dual 10" glass panels, IFR, etc. Many are content with a solid, basic VFR aircraft that has the potential for upgrades later on when/if desired.

I hate to agree with Rob in public, but my next plane is going to have a much simpler panel/electrical system. After flying with a dual EFIS +GPS+iPad in my Rocket, I realize that about 90% of the features are unutilized in VFR flight. I've even turned on six-pack mode on my EFIS and ditched the iPad.

Some EFIS vendors are catching on that simpler, cheaper offerings have greater longevity because the feature sets focus on the essentials and not geegaws.

So a basic VFR panel is not a deficiency, it's a feature! The only exception is that some kind of autopilot could save your life one day.

V
 
Could be quality of the build you are paying for as well. I wanted to build, have no time and bought instead. It was the builders 10th I believe and had helped on many more. The plane was known to be a very nice build and other people knew of him and his work. I think I got a more than fair deal on my part. I looked at other planes that had more options than the one I bought; but kept coming back to the one I ended up with as the quality was known. 10 years ago Hyundai didn’t have the reputation of Honda; their cars were dirt cheap; they cost more now.
 
"here really was only one choice in the end, the RV8, Vans best design ever with style and performance!"

Not wanting to start a war, but RV-4 is my pick :)

No war, I agree the 4 is a great looking plane but too limiting and too small for a lot of us 8 drivers hence Vans revisited their sporty looking design (4) by brining out the 8👍:)
 
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