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No fiberglassing required-window installation

togaflyer

Well Known Member
After doing some research, I decided to be the guinea pig and install all my windows without the need to fiberglass over them. While of course, still apearing nice. So far I have installed the door windows and it worked out very well. It is almost the same method used on the Glasair Sportsman windows installation. When Im ready to install the rear windows, it should work out just like the door windows. For the windscreen, Im ordering an aluminum fairing from ML Skunkworks. Installing the windscreen will be the same process as the other windows, except for the fairing install. I decided on the aluminum fairing because I wanted all the windows to be installed without any glassing. I hope to have the finished product done by the end of February. If anyone is interrested in this process let me know and I will keep you posted on the results. I think this will provide another option for -10 builders.
 
I'm interested..

I suppose the thinking is that the interior cabin pressures will be resisted by the adhesive only, correct? Yes. please send me the results of your method and pics if possible. ppilotmike at gmail dot com.
 
Benefit?

What sort of benefit do you see in not glassing over the window/cabin top structure?
Installing an aluminum fairing in place of a neat finish using fiberglass, seems like a step in the wrong direction.
Curious to hear what your reasons are for this option.
 
Ernst,

I think he's just trying to avoid as much glassing as possible, and potentially have a way to replace windows (if needed) without destroying the paint job..
 
Yes, please!

Not planning on glassing the Windows, either. Please keep us posted. I will also be using the aluminum windshield fairing...
 
Ditto

Yes I'm considering the same thing, mainly the forward windscreen. The primary reason is window replacement after that south Texas buzzard hits the windscreen. Been there, done that. I think glassing in all the side windows is fine, just not the front. I build with long-term "maintenance" in mind in all aspects of this project, access panels, etc. Don't glass yourself too far into a corner....

Yes, please keep us posted. I'm a ways out yet before I tackle this one. Maybe next fall.
 
Ernst,

I think he's just trying to avoid as much glassing as possible, and potentially have a way to replace windows (if needed) without destroying the paint job..

The only place the stock installation has you using fiberglass is along the bottom of the windscreen. That's what, four or five feet? And you could form that in place and make it removable without a lot of trouble.

It isn't like the standard instructions have you glassing in the perimeter around all 5 transparencies for 20-30' linear feet of fiberglass transitions...
 
Uh Oh...

I always get a chuckle (and some good perspective) from this kind of discussion. Kind of like the primer wars...or mags vs electronic ignition...

There is nothing wrong with building stock with no glass; adding glass around the windows; glassing the windscreen; or using the aluminum fairing on the windscreen. It is all up to the individual builder. Some of the comments, though, are pretty rough...I recall one such comment that insinuated the builder who chose to use the aluminum fairing didn't have the skill to do the fiberglass. That is a pretty arrogant view, given the talent of the crowd here...

From what I have seen, the airplanes that are completed are ALL works of art. Can't wait to join the ranks...my BPE engine should get here this month!:D
 
My concern would be the rigidity of the doors when you use the soft glue that Glasair uses to hold the windows in.

I also decided that I did not want to use Van's window glue method and figured I could do a lot better. I ended up installing the windows in my RV-10 three separate times with horrible results. The first two times I used the epoxy that Lancair uses and both times that windows came out with very little pressure. On a Lancair the windows are installed from the inside and I suspect they also use a different window material that bounds better to the epoxy.

I ended up purchasing new windows for the third try and used Van's method and it really was not that bad.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
 
Indeed an interesting discussion... Rich - which adhesive product are you using, the SilPruf that's used on the Sportsman? If so, please be very, very cognizant of the date code on the product. It is a shelf life-limited product. The only known bonding loss in the Sportsman is one builder had the upper edge of his windshield come unglued. He readily admits the SilPruf he was using was within its last few days of stated shelf life. Best to use it within six months of manufacture.

Also, to address Rob's comment, and since I know he has access to a Sportsman in his hangar, I'll suggest trying to flex one of the Sportsman doors. They do flex a little bit. Glastar doors flexed a bit more, hence the use of carbon fiber in the upper half of the Sportsman doors. Nonetheless, the bonding agent is not likely a significant contributor to this flexing.

Silpruf is funny stuff. If you lay on a very thin layer of the stuff, it has zero bond strength. You can wipe it off with your finger once it's dry. If, however, you get some thickness of Silpruf built up between a fiberglass structure and a polycarbonate window, you can't get them to come apart. The plastic will break before the Silpruf bond will break. Yeah, I tried this myself and was amazed. The only way to get the windows out of a Glastar or Sportsman is to poke a piece of 0.020" safety wire through the Silpruf, then use it like a wire knife, one person on the inside, the other person on the outside, pulling the wire along the joint, cutting the Silpruf. This technique results in the window being reusable, too (if a damaged window wasn't the original reason for removal)!

As an aside, Silpruf is used to hold glass windows in skyscrapers. It's good stuff.
 
Interesting thread as some guys in Ole Blighty are having difficulty obtaining Weldon-10 because it flags as hazmat and can't be air freighted.

My obvious go to alternatives would be Sikaflex UV-295 or a 3M structural adhesive with similar properties.

Having glued RV7, 8 and will be looking at 12 and 14, I still think it is the way forward and although more time consuming than drilling, less stressful and a much more professional finish.

For the guys looking at aluminum fairings - if it is so you can remove the windshield later - Mmmmm.. Google bird damage in cars and airplanes. Replacing the windshield will be the least of your problems.

Finding and removing the Buzzard's hoop from somewhere in the upholstery will be more of a challenge :eek:
 
If your interested in this method I would suggest starting by Google searching "Sportsman window installation" and check out this 5 part series that a gentleman did. It is very detailed. For me, this is what I have so far. The Silpruf holds the windows very good. Part of the process is using dried Silpruf as standoffs to set the window height and insure there is material between the window and the flange. If I was to kick the window, I have no doubt the plexiglass would shatter long before the material gave out. one thing, Silpruf needs about 20 days for full cure. There is a 1/8 gap between the window edge and the joggle. Once the plane is painted, I will fill and filet Silpluf in the gap. Silpruf is silicon, it is UV and weather resistant, and does not need a UV blocker like Sika needs. You do not want to get Silpruf on anything you want to paint. And as Mark said, do not use Silpruf unless you have at least 90 days before the expiration date.
I did want the ability to remove and replace the plexiglass if needed. I have seen the results of a bird strike, oops happens because of an FBO attendant, or just age beating down the plastic eventually. I went with the Dresser plastic and very happy with it. Was worth the money.
Oh, FYI, Im not intimidated by fiberglassing. Made sufboards when I was young and once I got the rust out of the brain, glassing has not been an issue. We just like the finished look of the Cessna TTX and the Cirrus windows, which is how this will turn out. I have spoke to someone who used the aluminum fairing, and seen the finished product, And we also liked the look. You can make the fairing removable or set it permanent with rivets. You could also have a glassed in like finish, but you would loose the removable ability.
When I have finished the install (before painting) I will learn how to post some picture and give a final verdict if its a viable option. This should be by the end of February. No comments on the time line please 😖
 
I have installed my windscreen and the aluminum fairing I received from ML Skunk works. As in the door windows install, I used the same method as the Glassair Sportsman window installation method (which is the same for all my windows). We are very pleased with the results. I continued to use Silpruf for the windscreen. Lots of taping to establish clean lines where the Silpruf edges run and to protect all surfaces from contact with the Silpruf (you dont want contact with unpainted surfaces). The windscreen was lightly sanded in the area the fairing lays over it and a thin layer of Silpluf was spread over the sanded and taped area. This gives a clean black background looking forward from inside. The fairing took some extra cutting and shaping (needed a stretcher and shrinker set from HF) to achieve a clean fit along the fuselage and windscreen. I drilled the fairing and match drilled it to the fuselage with two inch spacing. There is one area on each side of the forward fuselage that required different spacing on a couple hole to acommodate the location of the sub panel and rib rivets. I dimpled the fairing for a -4 rivet; however, the final hardware will be a 4-40 countersink machine screw with a washer and lock nut. All holes are reachable, including under the panel. I drilled and carefully countersunk the fuselage, removing the minimal amount of material needed for the dimpled fairing. Enough Silpruf was used to bed and seal the fairing to the fuselage and windscreen. Clecos were used to attach and hold the fairing and to allow several days for curing. So if you interested in this method here are my thoughts.

Glassing vs Aluminum fairing - What appeals to you the builder. I think both look nice, but for us, an aluminum fairing just had a certain look we liked.

Servicing - The fairing makes it easier to replace the windscreen if a bird decides to someday fly through it. The fairing can be removed and reused.

Time - the prep work, shaping, fitting, drilling, etc, probably equals the work for preping and glassing. no free ride on this one. You still need to take the extra time shaping, drilling, setting clean tape line etc.

Post install - In a week (Silpruf needs time to cure, and up to two weeks for full strength set) We will remove the clecos and install th No.4 flush screws. I could do it tomorrow, but going out of town for a week. Before painting, I will touch up the areas were the tool marks are slightly visable with a thin float coat of filler. other then that its done. The fairing is flush on the windscreen and fuselage. You could float some filler along the fairing edge and fuselage to eliminate the .025 fairing edge, but if it ever need removal, you defeat the ability to easily remove it.

While Im away, I will learn how to post pictures. I will get some photos posted of the finished product. ML Skunk work charged 235.00 for the fairing, or you can get his video for 20 or 30 bucks and learn to make one (they include the video with the fairing). Right now Im like a rental horse heading for the barn, so I want nothing to slow me down. The fairing was worth the price IMHO. So hopfully this was informative for the Club -10 builders. Glassing or aluminum fairing, the end result is still a great plane!
 
Yes

Please post some pictures, both from the aluminium fairing and from the windows!

Thanks
Carlos

I'll second that request! Our Sportsman windows look fantastic - more like something one would expect on a Gulfstream jet than a homebuilt airplane. I hope yours come out looking as good!
 
I went with the Dresser plastic and very happy with it. Was worth the money.

Need help locating this company, please. Google no findy.

Already intending to go this route, for the reason Canadian Joy cites (professional appearance) but this thread inspires all the more :)
 
didn't realize that

my secondhand kit came minus the plastics because the intention of previous owners was to go with Cee Bailey. So that's become my plan as well.
 
I was happy with the product. Minimal trimming. A friend, who has a -10, said I cheated by not using the Van's plexiglass. I told him, work smarter not harder.
 
I suspect

that the labor you save with CB plexi you will expend doing it the "Sportsman" way, but it looks to be very worth it in the end.

I have a question, though. Should I mount the windows before paint, or wait till near the end of the build? Maybe I need to watch the 5 videos again. I plan to leave the top unattached as long as possible, and build/fit the doors while the top is just cleco'd on, so I can finish the overhead at my leisure, and keep the instrument panel on the bench as long as possible (gotta delay that avionics purchase until later to get the latest/greatest/sexiest glass, right?) - funny how these sequencing decisions all cascade, and how they march to the tune of the family budget...
 
Actually, once you do the first, it goes quick. The other thing is since I will not be glassing over all the windows, I save tons of time there. Since I will be taking the plane to a paint shop, I left the edge of the joggle unpainted and the 1/8 inch gap between the window edge and the joggle edge unfilled. I will have the paint shop paint up to the window edge, then after I get the plane back I will fill the gap in with Silpruf and do a final fillet. You slightly round the exposed window edges prior to install, so when you do the final fill and fillet, there is no exposed lip on the windows.

For the build, fitted and temporarily mounted the top, bolted it down, did the door and fitted them to the top. Pulled it all off and stored. Did all my interior work, fill paint etc on the top, doors, did all the wiring I could, etc. when I ran out of things I could do, top went on, windscreen and fairing went on, doors went on (after windows were installed), now my panel and some finish up, wiring. It worked out well.
 
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Fantastic work

Thank you for sharing your experience!! How did you seal up the bottom of the windscreen? Did you only use silpruf along the bottom edge. Just curious how you managed this part since there is no joggle along the bottom. Thank you again for leading the way.

Ron
 
just coated the bottom of the fairing with Silpruf, then clecos it down, cleaned the edges and pulled 1/4 inch tape (set along the top and bottom edges) for a nice edge. It leaves a thin layer, so its sealed, but not raised.
 
just coated the bottom of the fairing with Silpruf, then clecos it down, cleaned the edges and pulled 1/4 inch tape (set along the top and bottom edges) for a nice edge. It leaves a thin layer, so its sealed, but not raised.

OK, Rich, it didn't happen unless there are pictures! :D

I think we all want to see how your windows turned out. If you are even half as pleased with yours as I am with mine in our Sportsman, you'll be a very happy man indeed!
 
My first picture posting try out. Well it looks like I did it, posting the pictures that it. The important thing regarding the installation of this fairing is when my wife saw it and said she loves it. So, I got the seal of approval I needed.

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