PDA

View Full Version : Real world ADS-B performance report


Brantel
08-07-2012, 07:28 PM
Took a short flight this evening in an effort to see how well the ground station signals work in my area. I was using a GDL-39 sitting on the glare shield with its built in antenna.

At ~150ft AGL I had 25% signal, at ~200ft AGL I had 100% signal. At 200-250ft AGL I was receiving 2 ground stations. I departed from KMOR.

One station was ~ 28nm away near KDKX and the other was ~ 68nm away near Holston Mountain VOR HMV.

Looks like this is going to work pretty well in my area.

Had Air-Air traffic for the entire flight. Most of the targets were in the KTYS Class C. Had a medical chopper on a long straight in final and it was right on my screen till it landed.

Can't wait to get my 1090ES transponder installed....


While the FIS-B weather is not as sharp as XM, I really can no longer justify the high cost of the subscription. The FIS-B is good enough for my needs. I check the weather before CC flights on the ground with my Ipad so the delay in the air till I get data is no issue for me.

Rockyjs
08-07-2012, 09:12 PM
Brian,
Are you using an Ipad to display the weather and traffic info? If so what version Ipad and how readable is it in your RV-7?

Rocky

petehowell
08-07-2012, 09:30 PM
Thanks Brian - Can't wait to fly with the GDL-39! Acquiring hardware this week!

Brantel
08-08-2012, 06:39 AM
Brian,
Are you using an Ipad to display the weather and traffic info? If so what version Ipad and how readable is it in your RV-7?

Rocky

Rocky,

I use a 796 which has a superior screen compared to the Ipad. I do have an Ipad though. It is the first one. Of the three versions of the Ipad, the first two have the same screen and the third one has higher resolution but very similar brightness. All three of them are very similar in how readable the screen is in a bubble canopy RV under bright light conditions.

In my opinion the Ipad is great for on the ground pre-flight type of stuff but when it comes to actually trying to see the screen in flight in a bubble canopy RV, it is almost impossible. The people that seem to make it work all have one thing in common....they hand hold the unit so they can tilt it to the best angle to get enough contrast so they can see it.

If you plan to buy an Ipad to use in the RV, I suggest that you borrow one and give it a good test flight before slapping the $$$ down on the table.

celstar
08-08-2012, 08:35 AM
Brantel, I'm now flying my RV-3B with the GDL-39 connected to my 796. I do receive air to air but I have not had my ground station turn on as of yet. I have not traveled very far however and have looked to see were the ADSB ground stations are in the area and there is not any within 60 miles of me. The ground will not turn on until it is within the distance to pick it up correct?

Brantel
08-08-2012, 08:48 AM
There are two kinds of ground uplink signals from my understanding. FIS-B which is the free weather and other stuff like that and the composite traffic signal TIS-B. If you are in line of sight of a ground station, you should be able to see the FIS-B weather anytime. You can see the signal strength of the reception on the information page associated with the weather or the traffic screens.

The TIS-B signal will only be transmitted from the ground station when there is an aircraft within range of the station with ADS-B out. If that is you, you should get it anytime you are in line of site with a ground station. If you are not ADS-B out, you will only see it when you are near an airplane that has ADS-B out and you are within line of site of a ground station. I have found that if you are near a larger airport with tons of planes flying around with ADS-B out, you will get it almost full time. In an area like mine, it only shows up when there is a plane that has ADS-B out nearby. I do not have ADS-B out yet...

From my understanding, the same ground stations serve up the FIS-B and the TIS-B signals.

Pepe
08-08-2012, 06:54 PM
My hangar neighbor just got the GDL 39 at OSH and we went out to try it at the practice area in central Florida by KOBE. Once at 2000 feet we got weather on the 796 but it was kind of blocky not as smooth as XM or as fast. We did touch and go at KOBE and KPHK with visual traffic in the pattern but the 796 never showed the traffic in the pattern. However it did show traffic above at FL190. He was kind of disappointed because as a CFI he wanted to be aware of GA traffic in the vicinity. Is there some sort of setting to show GA traffic at the lower altitudes?

Pepe

SteinAir
08-08-2012, 07:52 PM
My hangar neighbor just got the GDL 39 at OSH and we went out to try it at the practice area in central Florida by KOBE. Once at 2000 feet we got weather on the 796 but it was kind of blocky not as smooth as XM or as fast. We did touch and go at KOBE and KPHK with visual traffic in the pattern but the 796 never showed the traffic in the pattern. However it did show traffic above at FL190. He was kind of disappointed because as a CFI he wanted to be aware of GA traffic in the vicinity. Is there some sort of setting to show GA traffic at the lower altitudes?

Pepe

The FIS-B weather is certainly less smooth in resolution...but to get all the traffic either you or someone near you needs an ES txpdr to "wake up" the ground stations so you either get the traffic directly or you eavesdrop and get it anyway.

Cheers,
Stein

Brantel
08-08-2012, 07:54 PM
My hangar neighbor just got the GDL 39 at OSH and we went out to try it at the practice area in central Florida by KOBE. Once at 2000 feet we got weather on the 796 but it was kind of blocky not as smooth as XM or as fast. We did touch and go at KOBE and KPHK with visual traffic in the pattern but the 796 never showed the traffic in the pattern. However it did show traffic above at FL190. He was kind of disappointed because as a CFI he wanted to be aware of GA traffic in the vicinity. Is there some sort of setting to show GA traffic at the lower altitudes?

Pepe

I am sure that you were getting signal much lower than that but remember the data is only sent on a periodic time table and each product has its own update rate.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2qio1np.png

So by the time you got to 2000ft you got some data. Bet that if you hung out at a lower altitude for more time, you would have had data there as well.

The FIS-B CONUS radar is slower and much less resolution than XM. I have found the FIS-B regional radar to be much faster updating than XM. The FIS-B regional radar is not as high a resolution as XM but it is much better than the FIS-B CONUS radar. It definitely serves the purpose for most pilots that fly for fun. After all, all we need to know is that there is a storm cell there, we don't need to define its boundaries down to the yard.

I am afraid that your friend did not do his homework before purchasing the GDL-39 in regards to traffic. The GDL-39 can show any traffic that has ADS-B out on their aircraft. This is done over the air to air link on both 978 UAT and 1090ES bands. Most likely none of the traffic you saw visually had ADS-B out of any kind so to see them you would have had to receive them as a target from the ground based TIS-B signal. The only way to receive that is to either have ADS-B out onboard or be close to another airplane that has ADS-B out onboard.

So the traffic you saw visually most likely did not have ADS-B out and you most likely were flying in an airplane that does not have ADS-B out and you were not close to any airplanes with ADS-B out.

Clear as mud right?

Tell your friend to equip his airplane with a 1090ES transponder or a 978 UAT and he will be able to get what he wants out of the ADS-B system...might as well do it now since we all will have to by 2020 if we want to fly in controlled airspace.

Pepe
08-09-2012, 08:18 AM
Brantel

Thanks for the good explanation. It made me understand better the GDL 39. My friend and I thought that by receiving the 1090MHz air to air link it will work like my Monroy Traffic-Watch that even on the ground it shows traffic in the pattern. But if understand correctly the traffic on 1090Mhz has to have ADS-B out for the GDL 39 to receive it.

My friend Dave check with two avionics shops for ADS-B out for his 1978 C-172 that has the original ARC avionics stack (no GPS) and this is his finding.

GTX-330 Transponder $3,500
GTN-650 WASS GPS $10,000
Installation $3,500

Total $17,000

Dave is very happy with his 796 large screen vs the 650 and I am happy with my Aera 560 to justify $17,000 for a smaller screen. If this is the cost for ADS-B out? I can see why there is not that many GA planes with it.

I think the GDL-39 is a good product for weather in the US but without coverage for the Bahamas is useless for both of us. We have been using XM\WX satellite image for the out islands and are very pleased with it.

Pepe

airmel
08-09-2012, 08:36 AM
Garmin has an "ADS-B Academy" at http://www8.garmin.com/adsb/ There are about 5 short videos explaining ADS-B and how it works and what equipment is needed. Very easy to understand and very helpful!

SteinAir
08-09-2012, 08:54 AM
Brantel

Thanks for the good explanation. It made me understand better the GDL 39. My friend and I thought that by receiving the 1090MHz air to air link it will work like my Monroy Traffic-Watch that even on the ground it shows traffic in the pattern. But if understand correctly the traffic on 1090Mhz has to have ADS-B out for the GDL 39 to receive it.

My friend Dave check with two avionics shops for ADS-B out for his 1978 C-172 that has the original ARC avionics stack (no GPS) and this is his finding.

GTX-330 Transponder $3,500
GTN-650 WASS GPS $10,000
Installation $3,500

Total $17,000

Dave is very happy with his 796 large screen vs the 650 and I am happy with my Aera 560 to justify $17,000 for a smaller screen. If this is the cost for ADS-B out? I can see why there is not that many GA planes with it.

I think the GDL-39 is a good product for weather in the US but without coverage for the Bahamas is useless for both of us. We have been using XM\WX satellite image for the out islands and are very pleased with it.

Pepe

Unfortunately the combo you listed above still will not work for the ADSB out...you'd need the GTX-330 ES or equivalent. The price for the squitter (ES) is higher than a regular 330, and the regular 330 won't buy you much of any functionality other than TIS (not ADSB) traffic for display the portable or GTN box. Indeed it's expensive for the certified crowd, much cheaper for us in experiemental aviation.

Cheers,
Stein

RV8R999
08-09-2012, 09:13 AM
Stein - any idea the cost to upgrade a 330 with an ES?

SteinAir
08-09-2012, 09:39 AM
Stein - any idea the cost to upgrade a 330 with an ES?

I belive that price is $1200. The other alternative is to buy a new 330ES, then sell the 330 on the used market, the overall cost may be less if you go that way....

Cheers,
Stein

celstar
08-09-2012, 10:00 AM
What Transponders out on the market presently would give the information needed to my GDL-39/796 combination, in order to get full traffic?

Brantel
08-09-2012, 10:26 AM
A few are:

Garmin 330ES
Dynon's unit but you need a Skyview to control it
The Trig units
Garmin 23ES but you need a G3X to contol it

I am sure there are others.

RV8R999
08-09-2012, 10:48 AM
I belive that price is $1200. The other alternative is to buy a new 330ES, then sell the 330 on the used market, the overall cost may be less if you go that way....

Cheers,
Stein

Actually this sounds like a great idea! Thanks

Ken

Pepe
08-09-2012, 11:26 AM
Who in this forum has 1090MHz ADS-B out? What equipment configuration?

Pepe

Brantel
08-09-2012, 11:28 AM
Pepe,

You can also comply with the 2020 mandate by installing a 978 UAT but check into the limitations that are on that band.

SmilingJack
08-09-2012, 12:03 PM
Stein - any idea the cost to upgrade a 330 with an ES?

I was quoted $1200 to upgrade my GTX330 from the Garmin help desk.

I also asked them if I had to do anything special, new antenna, add any additional wires....they said it was just remove, send it and $1200 to Garmin through an authorized dealer, then just reinstall and you now have ADSb OUT.

If I do that, I still will not comply with the 2020 ADSb regulation because I will have IN from my GDL39 and OUT from an upgraded GTX330, but, since I have NO WAAS system and just GPS from my G3X I will not fuly comply.

I figure I have 8 years for them to invent something. For now at least I will have traffic and Weather.

SteinAir
08-09-2012, 12:35 PM
I was quoted $1200 to upgrade my GTX330 from the Garmin help desk.

I also asked them if I had to do anything special, new antenna, add any additional wires....they said it was just remove, send it and $1200 to Garmin through an authorized dealer, then just reinstall and you now have ADSb OUT.

If I do that, I still will not comply with the 2020 ADSb regulation because I will have IN from my GDL39 and OUT from an upgraded GTX330, but, since I have NO WAAS system and just GPS from my G3X I will not fuly comply.

I figure I have 8 years for them to invent something. For now at least I will have traffic and Weather.

You are correct...which is also why the GNS400W was offered at a greatly reduced rate as a way to get you the WAAS now if need be. Otherwise something else may indeed come down the pipeline from someone else.

Cheers,
Stein

SmilingJack
08-09-2012, 12:49 PM
Thanks Stein for confirming that! This stuff makes my head spin and you and Brantel have done a great job responding.

Also, thanks for shipping my GDL39, it appears to Be arriving this Wed.

Last, I did go to Oshkosh and thought your company really stepped up and was represented in full force! It shows a lot of commitment on your part to invest the time, money and manpower.

Very much appreciated!

Pepe
08-10-2012, 08:01 AM
Looks to me that in order to get the GDL 39 to fully work for traffic detection you have to spend $17,000 on ADS-B out equipment. And that will only give you functionality in the US but not in Canada or the Bahamas. You may as well get the Garmin GTS-800 TCAS system for $8,000 that will show traffic on an old G430 or Aspen display and will work anywhere in the world with non-ADS-B out traffic.

BTW, At lunch we had a get together of the hangar neighbors and ask how many have ADS-B out in their planes. Out of 14 planes 0.00 zero, nada have it. And on this forum nobody answered the question of who have it. No wonder Dave's GDL 39 didn't see any GA traffic.

Pepe

RVbySDI
08-10-2012, 08:09 AM
Looks to me that in order to get the GDL 39 to fully work for traffic detection you have to spend $17,000 on ADS-B out equipment. And that will only give you functionality in the US but not in Canada or the Bahamas. You may as well get the Garmin GTS-800 TCAS system for $8,000 that will show traffic on an old G430 or Aspen display and will work anywhere in the world with non-ADS-B out traffic.

PepeOr spend $550 for an MRX model or $1500 for an XRX model of Zaon's (http://www.zaon.aero/) P-CAS unit.

dynonsupport
08-10-2012, 08:20 AM
Looks to me that in order to get the GDL 39 to fully work for traffic detection you have to spend $17,000 on ADS-B out equipment.


That's just simply false. The cheapest way to get the GDL 39 to get full traffic is to put a Trig TT22 transponder in your plane for $2,300 and hook it to ANY GPS that is already in the plane. That will wake up the ground stations and you'll get full ADS-B traffic on any ADS-B IN device in your plane.

If you're smart, you'll spend $400 more now so that transponder is a TT21 and will be compliant with ADS- B OUT in 2020, and then all you'll have to do is hook up a certified GPS in 2019.

Remember, ADS-B OUT is coming, and will be a legal requirement in 8 years. Equipping with a passive traffic system today doesn't help you at all with that upcoming law.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics

SteinAir
08-10-2012, 08:25 AM
Looks to me that in order to get the GDL 39 to fully work for traffic detection you have to spend $17,000 on ADS-B out equipment.....
Pepe

...or tell him to buy an RV and he could do it for half! :)

Just for the archives, Pepe is referring to installed costs of equipment for a certified airplane....us experimental folks can get by a LOT cheaper. As Ian said, there are a number of ways to do it that cost less, the Trig is an excellent interim solution at an attractive price (compared to a full up certified GTN+GTX330 "EX" install).

Cheers,
Stein

Brantel
08-10-2012, 08:28 AM
BTW, At lunch we had a get together of the hangar neighbors and ask how many have ADS-B out in their planes. Out of 14 planes 0.00 zero, nada have it. And on this forum nobody answered the question of who have it. No wonder Dave's GDL 39 didn't see any GA traffic.

Pepe

The closer we get to 2020, which will be here before you know it, we will see more and more who do.

That is if they want to fly in controlled airspace or above 10K ft MSL.

Like it or not, it is coming soon....

Several are predicting someone will come out with a certified position source for ADS-B out that will be way more cost effective than a full approach certified panel mounted WAAS unit. There will be a huge market for such a unit from folks that don't need the approach capabilities. It could be as simple as a hockey puck type unit.

dynonsupport
08-10-2012, 08:28 AM
Pepe, I notice that your real name is Jose, you live in FL, and Jose Monroy is the owner of Monroy Aerospace out of FL. You don't happen to be the owner of Monroy, do you? You seem awfully negative on ADS-B in a huge number of your posts since you signed up here two months ago.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics

RVbySDI
08-10-2012, 08:40 AM
. . .Remember, ADS-B OUT is coming, and will be a legal requirement in 8 years. Equipping with a passive traffic system today doesn't help you at all with that upcoming law.That is true but 8 years is a very long timeframe when considering the avionics landscape we are traversing. In 8 years the electronic gizmos will be completely different than they are now. If one were to look at the cost of the current crop of devices, especially in the certificated world, it is clear there is no reason to jump in as an early adopter. Saying there is a mandate in 8 years that will demand we buy this equipment at that time is little incentive to buy the high dollar equipment NOW. Buying the low cost passive units can be an effective means to get what they desire NOW without dealing with the headaches of certificated high dollar equipment that still does not provide exactly what is needed.

I agree with Stein that the Certificated GA pilot might reconsider what he is flying in order to take advantage of the availability of products we have at our disposal in the experimental world.

dynonsupport
08-10-2012, 08:47 AM
My point was that if you are actively wanting to get ADS-B in traffic, the cheapest way is not $17K, it's $2.5K. Since that solution is a transponder, if you are building a new plane, the cost is actually zero, since you are buying one anyway, and if you already have a plane you can sell your transponder. I'm not suggesting you buy the "high dollar equipment today."

I agree that the passive units are a means to lower cost traffic today, but if someone is deciding between passive traffic at $1,500 and ADS-B IN and OUT at a cost of $1,000-$3,500, they should really be educated on the capabilities and future costs of their decision.

All Dynon is trying to do is help the experimental world understand ADS-B and make sure everyone is educated so they can make their own decisions.

--Ian

JoeLofton
08-10-2012, 04:33 PM
The Trig TT21/TT22 has a GPS position input as an RS232 input to the transponder. Per the installation manual, the input "can recognize the industry standard 'Aviation' format, the NMEA format, or the format used by certain Freeflight and NexNav GPS sensors; the interface speed can be selected between 4800, 9600 and 19200 bps."

I haven't yet made the connection, but I think this means that I can use my 496 as a GPS position source. During configuration of the transponder you set the GPS System Integrity Level, with "Low" mentioned as a guideline for VFR only GPS or uncertified installation.

Then there is a TIS traffic output, an RS232 output that can, among other options, "support the format used by certain Garmin handheld displays, including the 495, 496, 695, and 696."

After sorting through the technical jargon, I'm hopeful that my 496 can be used to wake up the ground station and display traffic info sent back. To be determined.

SteinAir
08-10-2012, 04:38 PM
The Trig TT21/TT22 has a GPS position input as an RS232 input to the transponder. Per the installation manual, the input "can recognize the industry standard 'Aviation' format, the NMEA format, or the format used by certain Freeflight and NexNav GPS sensors; the interface speed can be selected between 4800, 9600 and 19200 bps."

I haven't yet made the connection, but I think this means that I can use my 496 as a GPS position source. During configuration of the transponder you set the GPS System Integrity Level, with "Low" mentioned as a guideline for VFR only GPS or uncertified installation.

Then there is a TIS traffic output, an RS232 output that can, among other options, "support the format used by certain Garmin handheld displays, including the 495, 496, 695, and 696."

After sorting through the technical jargon, I'm hopeful that my 496 can be used to wake up the ground station and display traffic info sent back. To be determined.

My understanding is the same as mentioned above. Realize that this is also an interim solution until we're all required to have a certified GPS driving it, but for all intensive purposes it should physically work at this time. There are some differences of opinion between various mfgr's as to whether you legally "need" the GPS to be certified (and I don't want to get into that argument), but functionally we know a non certified GPS will work....but your position just can't be used by ATC for legal separation in certain airspaces until you do have a TSO'd unit. That's my 2 cents for now!

Cheers,
Stein

Pepe
08-10-2012, 05:24 PM
Reading on the 2020 ADS-B mandate you may not need ADS-B out after all. If you fly below 10,000ft in Class E airspace you are not required ADS-B out. More than 90% of the airports in the US are under Class E and all are GA airports. By 2020 fuel prices at Class B, C will be over $10/gal not to mention overnight tie down. Most experimental planes flights are into Class E airports. And there is no mandate for ADS-B out in the Bahamas. Based on this after 2020 there would be a large percentage of experimentals without ADS-B out but with the old fashion Mode C transponder (which is required anyway). The money you save on ADS-B out can be used toward that nice Dynon MFD display. Of course you would be invisible to those having ADS-B in only but most likely they will be invisible to you also.

Pepe

Brantel
08-10-2012, 06:00 PM
I don't share your vision of the future.

You are not required to have a mode C transponder in the same areas you mentioned don't have to have ADS-B out by 2020. Why then do most put one in anyway? While most may not fly in C and up airspace or above 10K ft....they don't want to be excluded from those areas.

It will be just as cost effective in the long run for Experimentals to initially put it in rather than the old fashioned Mode C only xponder.

How many experimentals have been built in the last 20 years without at least a Mode C transponder? I bet that number is pretty small. Those folks were no more required to do so than those that chose not to install ADS-B out. They did and continue to do so because they do not want to exclude themselves from those airspaces.

Pepe
08-10-2012, 06:43 PM
I don't share your vision of the future.

You are not required to have a mode C transponder in the same areas you mentioned don't have to have ADS-B out by 2020. Why then do most put one in anyway? While most may not fly in C and up airspace or above 10K ft....they don't want to be excluded from those areas.


If you want flight following between two Class E airport you would need at least a Mode C transponder, otherwise how ATC is going to see you. You can also underfly or overfly Class C airspace and still under 10K in Class E airspace. If you are flying an LSA I doubt you would be above 10K. For my flights the mandate does not affect me since 98% of my flights are into Class E airports. I feel better now knowing that I would not need to spend a considerable amount of money to keep flying.

Pepe

tkatc
08-10-2012, 07:03 PM
Just to be clear, you don't NEED a transponder to receive flight following. It does make it easier but we do use RADAR to provide services.

SteinAir
08-10-2012, 07:47 PM
Reading on the 2020 ADS-B mandate you may not need ADS-B out after all. If you fly below 10,000ft in Class E airspace you are not required ADS-B out. More than 90% of the airports in the US are under Class E and all are GA airports. By 2020 fuel prices at Class B, C will be over $10/gal not to mention overnight tie down. Most experimental planes flights are into Class E airports. And there is no mandate for ADS-B out in the Bahamas. Based on this after 2020 there would be a large percentage of experimentals without ADS-B out but with the old fashion Mode C transponder (which is required anyway). The money you save on ADS-B out can be used toward that nice Dynon MFD display. Of course you would be invisible to those having ADS-B in only but most likely they will be invisible to you also.

Pepe

Maybe...but maybe not. It's sort of a straw man argument as presented. The issues as stated above make some assumptions that leave out other facts. For example, "most" experimentals are by a large margin RV's or other higher performance sport planes that routinely do in fact fly above 10k' and in/out of class B/C/D/military/TCA airports. Gas prices while important are relative to the time & circumstances, etc... Not so relavent to the ultimate equippage of a new homebuilt. ES txpdrs are now literally within a few hundred bucks of an old mode C box (& competition will likely cause more pricing pressure) so the cost argument relative to homebuilders is almost moot. Certified aircraft are a different story all together, but here on VAF we predominantly are concerned with RV's....therefore a continued discussion of costs relative to certified aircraft isn't entirely applicable. The experimental world usually leads the certified world, so that's the perspective we're working from.

Anyway, my point is that I disagree with a few of your assumptions. We can't pick some facts and timelines without including others. Things like raw materials, engines, etc.. have also gone up. So have salaries and at some point so will inflation. Similarly, this same argument was made decades ago about engines when some assumed we'd all be flying behind a chevy or subby because aircraft engines were getting too expensive - yet despite the costs of lyclones doubling or tripling, they are more popular than ever. Early RV3 builders wouldn't fathom someone paying $20-$50k for an RV kit, yet they too are more popular than ever.

In the end I believe it's not only a good idea to move forward with NextGen and ADSB (for both GA and 121), there are lots of benefits to us as GA owners as well. Change can be scary, but it's gonna happen whether we want it or not....at least in some fashion or other, regardless of politics, economy, technology, etc...

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

PS...also interested in your response to Ian's question regarding any affiliation to Monroy personally or professionally. It's a general courtesy on these forums to disclose such things.

Pepe
08-10-2012, 08:20 PM
Anything that interacts with ATC has to be FAA TSOd approved irrelevant of were it goes, certified or experimental. So the ADS-B out transponder and WAAS GPS prices will be the same for either aircraft. So far I have not seen an old GA plane or helicopter that is over 5 years old that is ADS-B out equip or even ADS-B in. I am not surprised about this. But looking at the mandate I don't think there will be a rush or pressure for ADS-B out equipping.

ADS-B UAT has no use for the flying public (airline passengers) since they are required: 1090MHz ADS-B out, TCAS, onboard radar, METARS and other info comes via ACARS. In view of this what would be the FAA argument to support over 500 UAT ground stations for the GA sector. Loran C had 12 stations serving the aeronautical and maritime sectors and they were decommissioned after just over 12 years in service due to budget cutting. The same happened with MLS and those were only three stations serving the airlines. It all boils down to cost and who benefit the most.

Pepe

dmaib
08-10-2012, 08:28 PM
Anything that interacts with ATC has to be FAA TSOd approved irrelevant of were it goes, certified or experimental. So the ADS-B out transponder and WAAS GPS prices will be the same for either aircraft. So far I have not seen an old GA plane or helicopter that is over 5 years old that is ADS-B out equip or even ADS-B in. I am not surprised about this. But looking at the mandate I don't think there will be a rush or pressure for ADS-B out equipping.

ADS-B UAT has no use for the flying public (airline passengers) since they are required: 1090MHz ADS-B out, TCAS, onboard radar, METARS and other info comes via ACARS. In view of this what would be the FAA argument to support over 500 UAT ground stations for the GA sector. Loran C had 12 stations serving the aeronautical and maritime sectors and they were decommissioned after just over 12 years in service due to budget cutting. The same happened with MLS and those were only three stations serving the airlines. It all boils down to cost and who benefit the most.

Pepe

This should be interesting!:D

Walt
08-10-2012, 08:45 PM
Anything that interacts with ATC has to be FAA TSOd approved irrelevant of were it goes, certified or experimental. So the ADS-B out transponder and WAAS GPS prices will be the same for either aircraft. So far I have not seen an old GA plane or helicopter that is over 5 years old that is ADS-B out equip or even ADS-B in.

Pepe

Not true, I certify automatic altitude reporting equipment all the time that does not have a TSO (the majority of experimentals use their glass panels as their altitude source). It's reporting your altitude via your transponder to ATC.

I have also installed more than a few Mode S/ES transponders in certified aircraft, this basically makes them compliant with ADS-B out now.

SteinAir
08-10-2012, 08:52 PM
Anything that interacts with ATC has to be FAA TSOd approved irrelevant of were it goes, certified or experimental.

Utterly false and not true.

So the ADS-B out transponder and WAAS GPS prices will be the same for either aircraft.

Again, false and not true.

So far I have not seen an old GA plane or helicopter that is over 5 years old that is ADS-B out equip or even ADS-B in. I am not surprised about this.

Then you haven't looked very hard....

But looking at the mandate I don't think there will be a rush or pressure for ADS-B out equipping.

You might be surprised to know how many ES txpdr upgrades we've been doing, and how many ES txpdr's both Garmin and Dynon are selling (to experimentals at WAYY less cost than to certified guys)!

.... 1090MHz ADS-B out, TCAS, onboard radar, METARS and other info comes via ACARS.

Again, not entirely true. You should spend more time with 121 outfits.

Perhaps DR or one of the moderators could intervene here to "stop the insanity" ?! Methinks this spreading of misinformation under the guise of something other than what it appears is not in keeping with the spirit of these forums.

Cheers,
Stein

2bolts
08-10-2012, 09:03 PM
Personally, I see ADS-B as just another added expense in an already expensive sport/hobby/pastime. When the time comes I will be looking for the cheapest way of complying with this.

Brantel
08-10-2012, 09:08 PM
Perhaps DR or one of the moderators could intervene here to "stop the insanity" ?! Methinks this spreading of misinformation under the guise of something other than what it appears is not in keeping with the spirit of these forums.

Cheers,
Stein

Yep, I think Ian was on to something and you are as well. I would hate to find out I have been feeding a troll.....

I am out.