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SteinAir
07-18-2012, 11:46 AM
Another ADSB receiver announced today...I'll copy part of Dynon's release below:

...This remotely mounted receiver module integrates with the SkyView system to provide easy access to weather and traffic information on top of the detailed navigational information SkyView already provides.

At an MSRP of $995, the SV-ADSB-470 is the most affordable permanently mounted ADS-B solution on the market and has been designed specifically for experimental and light sport aircraft. It is powered directly from aircraft power and utilizes an externally mounted antenna for superior performance.

Weather is displayed graphically and textually on SkyView, and includes NEXRAD radar, METARs, and TAFS. Airport weather data can be chosen based on nearest or by airport identifier.

By combining the SV-ADSB-470 with Dynonís existing SV-XPNDR-261 Mode-S transponder module with ADS-B out, reliable, accurate traffic will be provided to the SkyView system, even without a certified GPS on board. The ADS-B system requires the aircraft to be ADS-B OUT equipped before traffic information is provided, and Dynonís Transponder is fully DO-260B / ADS-B out certified so SkyView owners will receive a complete traffic picture any time ADS-B services are available. Nearby traffic that is a threat will generate an audio alert so that the pilot does not need to keep looking at the screen to be alerted to nearby aircraft...


Cheers,
Stein

Wesael
07-18-2012, 11:53 AM
Sweet.:D:cool:

chipf
07-18-2012, 12:09 PM
At last!

I was ready to buy a Stratus for the iPad, this might change that.

The Dynon web page doesn't have any info yet, I wonder what the time frame for availability will be. I might just have to get the iPad solution working anyway, then I'll have to see if there's enough value to also buy the new Dynon ADS-B module.

SteinAir
07-18-2012, 12:16 PM
I think perhaps Robert or Ian from Dynon will hopefully jump in here with more authority and details for ya'll.

Cheers,
Stein

DFlyer
07-18-2012, 01:24 PM
We are stating that we will be shipping the SV-ADSB-470 "this Fall". We've been working on it for a while, and the project is actually ahead of schedule, and flying, and looking good. So while I can't give you an exact date yet, it will be sooner rather than later this Fall.

We have a lot to get up on the Website this Oshkosh... lot's of new products. So I promise by Monday to update everything. But an exclusive for VAF... here is a link to download the SV-ADSB-470 brochure (http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Literature/Dynon-SV-ADSB-XPNDR-Web-Jul2012.pdf).

-Robert
Dynon Marketing

Jeff A
07-18-2012, 01:50 PM
Any details on the type/size/mounting requirements of the ADS-B antenna?

randyintejas
07-18-2012, 01:52 PM
Excellent News, Thanks!!

dynonsupport
07-18-2012, 01:56 PM
The ADS-B antenna is basically a transponder antenna. So, a blade or stub antenna, mounted like you are used to.

It goes on the bottom of the plane, and the only real requirement is to get it away from the transponder antenna. We're working on exact recommendations for the distance, but anything over 2' will be fine, we hope we can allow closer.

--Ian
Dynon Avionics

Jeff A
07-18-2012, 02:03 PM
Will it require another serial input, or does it use the SV network?

BTW, great news! Very excited to be able to use this in the busy DFW area.

Brantel
07-18-2012, 02:19 PM
Another ADSB receiver announced today...I'll copy part of Dynon's release below:

...
By combining the SV-ADSB-470 with Dynon’s existing SV-XPNDR-261 Mode-S transponder module with ADS-B out, reliable, accurate traffic will be provided to the SkyView system, even without a certified GPS on board. The ADS-B system requires the aircraft to be ADS-B OUT equipped before traffic information is provided, and Dynon’s Transponder is fully DO-260B / ADS-B out certified so SkyView owners will receive a complete traffic picture any time ADS-B services are available.


Cheers,
Stein

I get that this is possible for now because the FAA apparently has not been enforcing the precision position source requirement but how can this statement be true for once they do start enforcing this requirement?

Also, Robert, can you explain why Dynon decided not to make this a dual band unit? Seems to me that there are some advantages to being able to get the air to air data from both bands.

dynonsupport
07-18-2012, 03:11 PM
The device is serial, not SkyNet. It can be wired to multiple SkyView screens like all of our serial devices, and will continue to work even if a SkyView screen fails.

Brian,
A certified GPS is required post-2020, if you want to fly in environments where a transponder is required. They need a certified GPS to provide primary separation.

A certified GPS is not required to transmit your position even post-2020, as long as it is properly marked as being from an uncertified source, and you are not flying somewhere where a transponder is required. The transmission of your position is what wakes up the ground stations and gets them to send you traffic. The ground stations do not require this position to be certified, and the FAA has not said that it will be required.

We went single band because without ADS-B out, we don't believe that you should show traffic from ADS-B (978 or 1090) at all. Without transmitting your position, the aircraft you will see will just be random, and you'll have no idea if you have reasonable coverage or not. For instance, you may see a group of targets a four miles ahead because they are being "illuminated" by another plane with ADS-B out, but not see the plane that is 1/4 mile away because you're not transmitting. The same can happen with altitude, you could see planes all around you horizontally and think you have coverage, but they are all well below you because the plane illuminating them is not at your altitude and thus the ground station is not giving you appropriate targets. The presence of other targets on the screen can give you a false sense of coverage. It's also not within the spirit of the ADS-B system at all.

So, given that we expect everyone to have ADS-B out (and there are affordable solutions for that), then we have to look at what a 1090ES receiver would get you. It will only pick up aircraft that have MODE-S extended squitter outputs, and only in areas that don't have ADS-B coverage. We didn't feel that getting those few aircraft in those few corner cases was worth the extra hardware cost, nor that it's a great idea to act like you have any kind of reliable data when in those corners.

--Ian
Dynon Avionics

P.S. On a weekday flight around Seattle a few days ago, we saw 110+ unique aircraft in one hour of flying. That's 110 airplanes within 15NM and 5K feet of us, not just as far as RF will reach.

Brantel
07-18-2012, 03:36 PM
Ian,

Thanks for explaining Dynon's position on the matter.

Not sure I agree with the argument that running a TIS-B receiver with no ADS-B out is somehow dangerous.
Nobody should be relying on any traffic avoidance system as their sole means or primary traffic avoidance method. NOBODY.....PERIOD.....
All traffic avoidance systems should only be used to augment EYEBALLS OUT THE WINDOW.
If this simple rule is followed, TIS-B with no ADS-B out can only improve the percentage of traffic that is spotted by the pilot. It should never degrade the pilot's ability as long as they are looking outside most of the time.

Also, I guess that my interpretation of the FARS/Rules around ADS-B out are a little different on the precision position source requirement. I am no expert though and I see that we are getting conflicting info from various manufacturers so us as end users are left a little confused.

Flying Scotsman
07-18-2012, 03:43 PM
The device is serial, not SkyNet. It can be wired to multiple SkyView screens like all of our serial devices, and will continue to work even if a SkyView screen fails.

Brian,
A certified GPS is required post-2020, if you want to fly in environments where a transponder is required. They need a certified GPS to provide primary separation.

A certified GPS is not required to transmit your position even post-2020, as long as it is properly marked as being from an uncertified source. The transmission of your position is what wakes up the ground stations and gets them to send you traffic. The ground stations do not require this position to be certified, and the FAA has not said that it will be required.

We went single band because without ADS-B out, we don't believe that you should show traffic from ADS-B (978 or 1090) at all. Without transmitting your position, the aircraft you will see will just be random, and you'll have no idea if you have reasonable coverage or not. For instance, you may see a group of targets a four miles ahead because they are being "illuminated" by another plane with ADS-B out, but not see the plane that is 1/4 mile away because you're not transmitting. The same can happen with altitude, you could see planes all around you horizontally and think you have coverage, but they are all well below you because the plane illuminating them is not at your altitude and thus the ground station is not giving you appropriate targets. The presence of other targets on the screen can give you a false sense of coverage. It's also not within the spirit of the ADS-B system at all.

So, given that we expect everyone to have ADS-B out (and there are affordable solutions for that), then we have to look at what a 1090ES receiver would get you. It will only pick up aircraft that have MODE-S extended squitter outputs, and only in areas that don't have ADS-B coverage. We didn't feel that getting those few aircraft in those few corner cases was worth the extra hardware cost, nor that it's a great idea to act like you have any kind of reliable data when in those corners.

--Ian
Dynon Avionics

P.S. On a weekday flight around Seattle a few days ago, we saw 110+ unique aircraft in one hour of flying. That's 110 airplanes within 15NM and 5K feet of us, not just as far as RF will reach.


Can you provide the pinout/wiring requirements so I can prewire for it before closing out the cockpit? Does it just need Power/Ground and Rx/Tx? Or does it need any other inputs (connections to serial GPS, XPDR, whatever)?

Mike S
07-18-2012, 03:44 PM
Do, if I read this correctly, the new Dynon unit is a couple hundred bucks more than the new Garmin unit of a similar function.

And the Dynon will only talk to Dynon produces, but the Garmin talks to Garmin, or the Ipad etc.

And the Dynon is panel mounted, while the Garmin can be moved from plane to plane.

The Garmin has a WAAS receiver, does the Dynon?

Did I miss anything??

Considering that my panel has GRT in it, it would appear neither of these units will be of much value to me--------unless I load a Garmin program into my Ipad.

As I have lamented many times in the past, how nice it would be if all the various avionics mfgrs would agree on a common language for their little boxes to talk to each other with.

dynonsupport
07-18-2012, 03:49 PM
The wiring requirements for the Dynon box will be 4 wires to a D9 male cable (D9 female on the box).

1: Power In
2: RX in to Box, TX on SkyView Wires
3: TX from box, RX on SkyView wires
4: Ground

There is a standard BNC connector to go to the antenna.

Remember, this box can be anywhere in the plane (panel, under a seat, in the back).

SteinAir
07-18-2012, 03:51 PM
Do, if I read this correctly, the new Dynon unit is a couple hundred bucks more than the new Garmin unit of a similar function.

And the Dynon will only talk to Dynon produces, but the Garmin talks to Garmin, or the Ipad etc.

And the Dynon is panel mounted, while the Garmin can be moved from plane to plane.

The Garmin has a WAAS receiver, does the Dynon?

Did I miss anything??

Considering that my panel has GRT in it, it would appear neither of these units will be of much value to me--------unless I load a Garmin program into my Ipad.

As I have lamented many times in the past, how nice it would be if all the various avionics mfgrs would agree on a common language for their little boxes to talk to each other with.

Not to hijack the thread, but regarding the GRT and AFS folks (and ADS-B), I might hold tight for a bit and see what happens...if it were me... ;)

Cheers,
Stein

airguy
07-18-2012, 06:55 PM
Dynon - where is the display for this data? On the Skyview screen or a separate display?

I have your 261 transponder as well as a second 978 Mhz antenna installed since I was planning on eventually using some type of UAT, if I understand correctly now with this new component I won't need that 978 Mhz antenna?

DFlyer
07-18-2012, 07:11 PM
Greg,

Keep that 978 antenna; that is exactly what you want to connect to the SV-ADSB-470.

The weather and TFR graphics appear on the map. The traffic appears as it does now with TIS, on the map and synthetic vision. Except now you will have vector information on the target aircraft. And textual weather data appears in pop-up windows when requested.

You can see actual screen shots on the brochure (http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Literature/Dynon-SV-ADSB-XPNDR-Web-Jul2012.pdf).

-Robert
Dynon Marketing

airguy
07-18-2012, 08:04 PM
Greg,

Keep that 978 antenna; that is exactly what you want to connect to the SV-ADSB-470.

The weather and TFR graphics appear on the map. The traffic appears as it does now with TIS, on the map and synthetic vision. Except now you will have vector information on the target aircraft. And textual weather data appears in pop-up windows when requested.

You can see actual screen shots on the brochure (http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Literature/Dynon-SV-ADSB-XPNDR-Web-Jul2012.pdf).

-Robert
Dynon Marketing

Any particular mounting requirements? Orientation of the box? Specific lengths of Coax cable between the box and antenna? Power requirements?

When is mine showing up in the mail? :D

dynonsupport
07-18-2012, 08:13 PM
The box can be mounted anywhere inside the plane in any orientation.

The antenna needs to be 2' away from the transponder antenna (hopefully less, we're still testing).

The coax can be any length you'll get an a 2 or 4 place GA plane, from 0' to 30'.

The box draws about 200mA at 12V.

airguy
07-18-2012, 08:17 PM
The box can be mounted anywhere inside the plane in any orientation.

The antenna needs to be 2' away from the transponder antenna (hopefully less, we're still testing).

The coax can be any length you'll get an a 2 or 4 place GA plane, from 0' to 30'.

The box draws about 200mA at 12V.

Niceness - now go get me vertical guidance from a certified GPS/ILS! :cool:

Flying Scotsman
07-18-2012, 11:10 PM
I know this is a pipe dream and there are probably all sorts of reasons it's not possible...

Would it be possible to multiplex the XPDR antenna with the ADS-B box in some fashion?

RF is *not* my area of expertise, so I have no idea if this would work or not, and why (or why not)...explanations welcome for my own edification :)

Steve

dynonsupport
07-18-2012, 11:46 PM
Yes, it is possible to use a multiplexer to combine the signals into one antenna. But it isn't cheap, like $1000. That can be good for certified planes where adding an antenna is an issue, but for experimentals it's generally cost-prohibitive. It also means the antenna isn't optimal for at least one of the bands.

Flybuddy2
07-19-2012, 07:01 AM
It's my understanding that with the Dynon 261 transponder future software update that both 1090 and 978 traffic can be received on a single band 978 receiver as well as standard mode c traffic! Is that correct?

dynonsupport
07-19-2012, 11:15 AM
The transponder update will be out at the same time the ADS-B receiver ships, and yes, this makes the Transponder DO-260B certified, which allows you to see 1090 and 978 traffic on just a 978 receiver.

In areas with radar coverage you'll even see Mode-C aircraft.

Flybuddy2
07-19-2012, 11:36 AM
The transponder update will be out at the same time the ADS-B receiver ships, and yes, this makes the Transponder DO-260B certified, which allows you to see 1090 and 978 traffic on just a 978 receiver.

In areas with radar coverage you'll even see Mode-C aircraft.

Excellent!! Been waiting for this..nearly full traffic and weather for under a grand and NO monthly fees. Way to go Dynon!:):)

apkp777
07-19-2012, 11:39 AM
Niceness - now go get me vertical guidance from a certified GPS/ILS! :cool:

Put me down for one of them too! I need some LNAV guidance as well (approved for IFR).

krw5927
07-19-2012, 11:50 AM
How will the transponder firmware update occur? Is it part of a software release for the Skyview system whereby the transponder will be updated through the normal skyview network, or will the transponder need to be sent to Dynon for update? Something else entirely?

dynonsupport
07-19-2012, 12:35 PM
The transponder will update as part of a normal firmware release. You'll need to go into a menu and press an extra button and the power cycle the transponder, but that's it. You don't need to take it out of the plane or do anything drastic.

No charging for updates or making you mail it in to the manufacturer here!

airguy
07-19-2012, 02:56 PM
No charging for updates or making you mail it in to the manufacturer here!

Except for that little SNAFU with the servos that had to go back so they could accept Skyview... :rolleyes:

dynonsupport
07-19-2012, 03:45 PM
There is no power from SkyView you can tap into, so you do need aircraft power. Given that it's only 200mA, you could just parallel it with the SkyView power on the VP-X if you don't have spare channels.

bigbill25
07-19-2012, 04:13 PM
SkyView showing ADS-B in weather:

http://i50.tinypic.com/kai96t.jpg

VERY big version: http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Press/SkyView-ADS-B-Weather.jpg

jchang10
07-19-2012, 05:09 PM
SkyView showing ADS-B in weather:

http://i50.tinypic.com/kai96t.jpg

VERY big version: http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Press/SkyView-ADS-B-Weather.jpg

I'm surprised there isn't a quick toggle button for the weather overlay. It will be interesting to see how so much information gets integrated into a single MAP view: terrain, airspace, flight planning, and now weather, oh my! :D

Jae

bill@fusion4.net
07-19-2012, 05:19 PM
I see the rain on the map, but the sky is clear on the synthetic vision:p

dynonsupport
07-19-2012, 05:36 PM
I'm surprised there isn't a quick toggle button for the weather overlay. It will be interesting to see how so much information gets integrated into a single MAP view: terrain, airspace, flight planning, and now weather, oh my! :D

Jae

That is not a final screenshot. There is a WX toggle.

Just like most other map products, you toggle WX on and off, and with it on, terrain is not shown on the map, just like the image shows.

vlittle
07-19-2012, 05:38 PM
I have a comment on Dynon's Marketing. To be fair this also applies to many other companies in our industry:

When you announce something, can you please have information available immediately on your website and easy to find?

The minimum necessary would be a copy of the press release, and support documentation (technical details or datasheet).

I spent 15 years in technology marketing and it's a shame that our E-AB industry can't even get the basics right. I shouldn't just pick on Dynon-- Garmin is just as guilty (or even more so... they released product information calling their 'Aera' devices 'Area' devices... so sad.

krw5927
07-19-2012, 06:20 PM
I see the rain on the map, but the sky is clear on the synthetic vision:p

If you want to see the foul weather you're about to fly into, look out the window. :D

bill@fusion4.net
07-19-2012, 06:35 PM
If you want to see the foul weather you're about to fly into, look out the window. :D

No, that is too scarry. Things always look better on a video screen. like maybe lightning strikes as yellow smilely faces:)

vlittle
07-19-2012, 06:50 PM
Currently Nav Canada has no plans for a general deployment of ADS-B. This means that if you equip with an ADS-B UAT or TIS-B or both, you will likely miss most of the traffic.

You will need a mode C traffic device (or TCAS) to see local traffic.

I see that Dynon claims that it will report mode-C traffic (probably without directional capability), so that will provide some level of traffic reporting in their new device.

Apparently, Garmin does not provide mode C traffic in their new portable device so it will not be of much use in Canada.

Perhaps Stein can confirm this, but it seems that if you plan to travel to Canada, you need to select your traffic device(s) carefully.

What an expensive inadequate solution this ADS-B stuff is becoming...

dynonsupport
07-19-2012, 07:29 PM
Vern,
Our solution does not pick up mode-C targets directly. Our solution picks up TIS-B traffic which is where Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) targets are uplinked over the ADS-B ground stations. I have no reason to believe that any ADS-B UAT traffic solution would work any different. I'm sure any ADS-B product that claims traffic will show you these targets.

Our solution is a 978MHz device, which means it works in the USA (50 states, Puerto Rico, Guam) only. It will have no functionality where a ground station is not available.

While other countries have not decided to invest in the infrastructure to make ADS-B highly functional, in the USA we are now at the point that you can equip a new aircraft for less than $1000 and transmit your position as well as receive traffic and weather for free forever. I'd say in the USA that ADS-B is living up exactly to the promises that the FAA made, and we're 8 years away from when it's going to be required. The fact that other governments have not invested to make the system work well is not a reason that ADS-B as a technology is a failure, it is a failure to actually implement ADS-B at all.

Canada could make ADS-B OUT via Mode-S transponders mandatory on airplanes, which would make traffic IN easy and cheap, but I'm sure everyone would complain about the undue burden that the government is putting on pilots. There's no way to make everyone happy. But until a country either installs ground stations or makes EVERY airplane equip with some sort of transmitter, there is never going to be reliable traffic in that country. The best you can do are the multilateration products like the Zaon, Monroy, and some of the European products.

As vendors in the experimental market, all we can do is try and educate people about the benefits and restrictions of these technologies the best we can, and try and make them as affordable as we can within the restrictions of having a VERY small market compared to most products. I think everyone in the experimental market is doing an amazing job at making experimental aviation more affordable and more technologically advanced than certified planes.

--Ian
Dynon Avionics

Peterk
07-19-2012, 08:12 PM
not only is it amazing what has appeared in the last year...we have eight years to go before its required. i can only imagine. it reminds me of the first gps receivers. pretty exciting. at one time it became evident that Garmin was leaving "comfortable" King behind. Not sure who is "comfortable" now but it isn't Dynon. and it certainly isn't measured by how (or via whom) you announce it. Dynon is most certainly on a mission...and its been fun to watch.

blahphish
07-20-2012, 08:52 AM
No, that is too scarry. Things always look better on a video screen. like maybe lightning strikes as yellow smilely faces:)

I LOL at this :D

Flybuddy2
07-24-2012, 06:02 AM
No display of the ADSB receiver at Oshkosh, no pre-orders, etc. would have liked to see at least a sim. IMO, they missed their target date on this felt compelled to announce it anyway to stave off the endless whining at the show of where's the weather and to keep customers from buying other products hitting the market.

dynonsupport
07-24-2012, 06:46 AM
I flew the ADS-B box from AZ to Oshkosh, and it worked great. This is not a vaporwre product, nor is it internally behind schedule. I'm sure you noticed that we released some other big stuff at Oshkosh, so weather was not where we were hanging our hat for the whole show, nor is it the only SkyView project we have internally.

Dynon doesn't take pre-orders more than a few weeks out for any product. We don't believe in that method of releasing products. We will have plenty of these when they go for sale so there's no reason for a queue. Just because someone takes your order doesn't mean they are at a certian point in their development.

In the mess getting packed for the show, a demo ADS-B box got forgotten, but there will be one at the show today.

Our ADS-B solution and weather display is going to be a great addition to SkyView and absolutely is coming shortly. We're exited to have it.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics

EchoCharlie1
01-30-2013, 12:36 PM
The ADS-B antenna is basically a transponder antenna. So, a blade or stub antenna, mounted like you are used to.

It goes on the bottom of the plane, and the only real requirement is to get it away from the transponder antenna. We're working on exact recommendations for the distance, but anything over 2' will be fine, we hope we can allow closer.

--Ian
Dynon Avionics

Is there a specific frequency range that must be adhered to for the ADS-B in/out reception? The stubby antenna with a ball on the end usually hits different frequency ranges from the blade antenna. What is the margin on the ranges? Thanks.

dynonsupport
01-30-2013, 02:54 PM
ADS-B is 978 MHz, so you want good response at that frequency. Anything with a VSWR of 3:1 or less at that frequency should be fine.

I don't know why a stub or blade would be tuned differently. They are both trying to deal with exactly the same signal, and in our experience, a transponder blade or a transponder stub both work equally well.