Which LSA's have it?

I'm all for the trailering! This is what I want. I want to pull out of my home, with my plane, and take it home with me when I'm done. Just like I do with my motorcycles, my friends boat, and when going camping with the kids for that matter. Looking at all the info on the S-19, the write up says "it is something you wouldn't want to do every day". (Meaning folding the wings and going home.)

So. My question is: Which SLA's out there have this design key? Any others that I'm missing?

McStealth

Trailering an airplane is NOT a good idea (IMHO). When you fold or remove wings, every flight is a test flight. There's always a chance that you will miss a safety pin or something. Every time you fold or remove wings, you put additional wear on the attach points. There have been several documented accidents attributed to this form of flying. I know many people who try this only to discover that it is not worth the extra time and hasse. They find that they fly much less than they would if they simply rented a hangar.

Not sure what kind of flying you do but many of those great spur of the moment flights would be right out if you had to trailer your plane to the airport.

Right now it's 30 minutes before sunset and I'm waiting for my girlfriend to come over so we can go for a sunset flight. We will probably only fly for 15-20 minutes. These are the types of flights I enjoy the most and I would think a typical LSA flier would also. Trailering your plane would cut most of these flights out. She's here, I'm off.....

I was one of those that pushed for removeable/folding wings early on via e-mail to Vans. Mel makes valid points, I would definitely take his comments seriously. The reason why I pushed for this feature goes back again to economics. My understanding is a substantial part of the whole Sport Pilot/LSA movement is supposedly geared toward getting more of the 'middle class' general public into aviation. After these folks have managed to gather up enough funds to put themselves thru flight school and purchase or build their own LSA, they now have to find a place to store it.

For most folks this leaves two options, in the hanger or at home. If you can find available hanger space (and thats a big if, so much so that it's not even an option for some folks) chances are your going to pay a premium for it, especially if Sport Pilot does get rolling. The second option should be much more viable for the majority of these folks since most at least have a garage and a vehicle to tow with.

To a prospective owner/builder that has limited options, this single feature alone could play a significant role in their decision to commit to an LSA or not. I wonder just how many hours a year this new category of average joe, recreational, 'weekend' flyer will accumulate. I would suspect that due to just the cost of fuel and maintenance alone it will be on the low side and therefore the number of times wing attachment hardware gets exercised will be low. Hopefully, at least for some, the option to trailer will be needed just long enough to make aviation feasable to them.

Folding wings

Gliders and the European equivalent of LSAs have been folding wings for many years. I know that Van is a glider pilot, so he understands the utility of this feature, and will certainly apply this knowledge to his RV-12.

When the design is done correctly, it adds about 10 minutes to the pre-flight, and you will have *no doubt* that you've set it up correctly. It's just about impossible to do it wrong.

Go out to a glider base and help the guys set up in the morning, and you'll come away convinced.

Being able to easily trailer your RV-12 will be a fabulous feature.

A Kitfox folds up in about 15 minutes or less. Only one pin per wing to put in and if that is not there then it will become obvious really quick.

Scott - N598SD Flying - 52 hours

Granted, this is an extremely isolated case, but I did spend over 2 hours at Put-in-Bay waiting for a broken Kitfox to be removed from the runway. It had taken off, climbed to 100 feet or so, and the wing folded. Luckily he got it back to the runway before plunking into Lake Erie, but it resulted in a very bent airplane and a spouse that probably won't be flying with hubby again. She looked very unhappy.

That said, I look at the trailerable RV-12 has a possible retirement plane in support of my goal of having a winter condo down in the southwest and a summer condo in the north. I'd be re-locating the plane twice a year, and I think that level of trailering makes perfect sense.

Dgamble said:

Granted, this is an extremely isolated case, but I did spend over 2 hours at Put-in-Bay waiting for a broken Kitfox to be removed from the runway. It had taken off, climbed to 100 feet or so, and the wing folded. Luckily he got it back to the runway before plunking into Lake Erie, but it resulted in a very bent airplane and a spouse that probably won't be flying with hubby again. She looked very unhappy.

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Was that last summer? I was there for breakfast one morning and a white, possibly a Kitfox was sitting in an open hanger near the FBO. My girlfriend was a little worried when she saw that it also has an EXPERIMENTAL sign on it.


About the trailering a plane back and forth to the airport. I would assume it would be similar to owning a boat. If you have to trailer your boat to the lake to use it, you tend to not go as often and when you do go you feel like you have to be there a while to justify the extra hassle. I've done the boat thing both ways. I won't own a boat again unless it can be kept at the lake. Same thing with the plane for me. That freedom to go for a 10 minute flight is everything to me.

Now having folding wings so that more people can share a hanger, that I can see as a real savings and I would think you could find people willing to share their hanger with a second plane that has folding wings. I know I would.

mcsteatlh said:

So. My question is: Which SLA's out there have this design key? Any others that I'm missing?
...
McStealth

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CTSW does. It's actually part of the annual inspection, to remove the wing.

I have a photo of the wing root area that shows the spar pass through and attachment bolts. I'll post it as soon as I can find it.

I own (with a partner) a Libelle H-301, a German fiberglass glider built in 1966. We keep it in a trailer at the airport and assemble it before every flight.

It takes me 45 minutes from getting out of my car to being ready to pull it to the flight line, so I figure the assembly adds about 30 minutes to a normal pre-flight. I need one helper to put the wings on, which I secure by inserting a single spar pin. Most of the control hook-ups are automatic, except the ailerons, for which I need to insert two pins. I then tape the gaps between the wings and the fuselage and go fly.

The automatic control hook-ups are a very big deal. Older gliders need each control to be connected and safetied manually. A glider pilot is supposed to always do a "positive control check" as part of every pre-flight, but every now and then somebody forgets. This was and continues to be a major source of accidents, usually fatal. Newer models have gone to all-automatic hook-ups, which makes assembly much simpler and safer.

So here is my perspective: daily assembly of an aircraft designed for that is really no big deal and, assuming it has automatic control hook-ups, it's pretty much impossible to do it incorrectly. I imagine folding wings (as opposed to removable like in gliders) make the procedure even faster and simpler.

That said, it's the trailering part that I'm really not keen on. We take our glider on the road only a few times a year, but I figure those times are much riskier than a year's worth of flying. Things have a way of loosening up on the road and every pothole can cause thousands of dollars of damage if something is not secured properly.

Case in point: one of our club's Blaniks (aluminum) landed long at a high-altitude airport and run into the bushes. Fairly little damage, mostly dents in the horizontal stabilizer. On the way to the repair shop, a wing slid off its cradle and the wing tip was damaged. On the way back from the shop, a turnbuckle holding up the fuselage broke, which resulted in some wrinkled skin. Back for more repairs, after which it made the trip to the airport successfully. Overall, the cost of repairs for road damage exceeded that for the original runway overrun.

Now, a modern, well-designed, purpose-built trailer can significantly reduce the trailering risk. Even so, I'd much rather keep my aircraft at the airport...

Boris

borislav said:

So here is my perspective: daily assembly of an aircraft designed for that is really no big deal and, assuming it has automatic control hook-ups, it's pretty much impossible to do it incorrectly.

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After writing this, I got curious and went to Van's site to check:

The most obvious is easily removable wings. This is achieved with a "glider-style" technique. The two spar stubs projecting from the inboard ends of the wings overlap inside the fuselage and are secured with two large pins, fitting into carefully machined bushings. Full span flaperons will hook up automatically as the wings are installed ? again, using fittings similar to those proven over many years in sailplanes.

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Good stuff.

Boris

Trailering

N916K said:

About the trailering a plane back and forth to the airport. I would assume it would be similar to owning a boat. If you have to trailer your boat to the lake to use it, you tend to not go as often and when you do go you feel like you have to be there a while to justify the extra hassle. I've done the boat thing both ways. I won't own a boat again unless it can be kept at the lake.

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If you can only find a slip 30 minutes from home, and a ramp is available 10 minutes from home, trailering makes sense. I used to trailer my hobie cat, and found found myself at the lake 3 days a week after work in the summer (when we had wind). Much more setup on a hobie than a ski boat or an RV-12!

The other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people just leave their aircraft in the trailer at the airfield, and save a lot of money on hangar rent while they are waiting for a hangar to become available. Usually parking for a trailer is very cheap.

Yep, it was August 25th. There doesn't seem to have ever been an NTSB report filed - I kept looking because I was curious as to what exactly went wrong with the wing.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/292/1572/1024/OnTheRunway.jpg

N916K said:

Was that last summer? I was there for breakfast one morning and a white, possibly a Kitfox was sitting in an open hanger near the FBO. My girlfriend was a little worried when she saw that it also has an EXPERIMENTAL sign on it.

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the glider influence in the design of the rv-12 is very evident. the removable wing option dictates some criteria that a pilot will have to become comfortable with in this type of aircraft. the fuel is now riding in the cockpit with you, the smell of avgas with even a slight leak or venting can be overpowering. remember the nose tanks of the early t-carts,champs, cubs etc. but these were drafty open cabins compared to the sealed up cockpits we build today. next you will need a helper each time you arrive and depart from the airport. glider clubs have willing participants because they are at the airport for the same reason, to assemble gliders and fly. most FBO personell are at the airport working at a job, a job means making money so your help may cost you to get assembled. next where are you going to park your car and trailer while flying? remember 9-11 and all the new security at the airports. a trailer left unattended might be pryed open by the bomb squad while you are circling the airport waiting for them to finish before you can land. i have heard pilots comment they wish they lived on an airpark and had the plane in the backyard because by the time they drive to the airport the mood to fly has left them. imagine first hooking up a trailer, then driving and having to unload, then assemble and preflight, park the trailer and go fly only to repeat the entire process over after landing. i have done the boat equivelent of the trailered aircraft an it gets to be a huge hassle and the fun factor declines quickly.

I dont think there is a boat owner out there that wouldn't prefer to have their own dock space at their favorite lake so they could just drive over and motor away. Nor do I think theres a pilot out there that wouldn't prefer to have their plane waiting for them in a hanger at their local airport. Ofcoarse trailering is'nt the best or funnest option but non the less it has to be an option in the context of possibly allowing the 'average joe' an affordable way to own his/her LSA.

The same can be said for removeable/folding wings. Not having to do this critical procedure before every flight is ofcoarse much safer, but an aircraft without this option definitely severely limits it's appeal to someone that considers trailering a necessity, perhaps, only until they can afford hanger space. A large part of this new, soon to be, Sport Pilot community may well consist of 'average joe's' needing this very option to make aviation viable to them. I think any smart, forward thinking aircraft company (like Vans) that wants to be successful in the LSA market knows this.

Another thing about removeable wings. Those that want to own an LSA but cannot afford to buy one outright may have to, or want to, build one. In this case removeable wings are defintely an advantage to those that barely have enough room to store their LSA much less build it within their 1 or 2 car garage or shop if their lucky enough to have one. When it comes to space to build, fuselage length is one thing but a fixed full length wing span is another.

Best of Both Worlds

It seems to me you get the best of both worlds with the folding wing option.

Quote from Van's Website on the wing option...

[Snip]
While it may not constitute a dominant usage, we see trailerability as a potential benefit to the recreational pilot. For instance, we imagine that many retired pilots might want to drag their Light Sport Airplane along behind the camper or motor home for the extended vacations and/or when relocating to the summer/winter home. An owner may choose to use an inexpensive tie-down for 7 months of the year, and then bring the plane home for the rainy season when he may only want to fly once per month anyway. The bottom line is that this feature would permit exercising many options, and may be worth the added cost and/or building effort.
[/Snip]

I have the preview plans for the RV-9A and one of my biggest concerns was "where am I going to put it and how am I going to be able to perform maintenance?" Hangar space around here (central Ohio area) is non-existent, and the powers that be are in no hurry to build more .

When I heard about the RV-12 coming out, I my mood improved exponentially. I could now have a plane I could leave at the airport (KTZR) during the flying season and pack up and take home when I needed to wrench on it. During the winter, I could keep the plane at home and if during one of those wacky central ohio days when we get 60 degree temps in December or January, I could roll the bird down the street to the airport and go fly.

I, for one am happy Van's choose to go this route with the RV-12.

Hamp
Grove City, OH
Anxiously awaiting the RV-12, so I can have something to fly while building the -10

if a survey were to be conducted on how many aircraft in use today (excluding sailplanes) have a folding wing, or removable wing feature, and use this feature on a regular basis, I wonder what the numbers would indicate. I will throw out a hypothetical number of less than 10 % . If I were an aircraft company designing for the maximum performance and ease of construction and safety I would say that I would have to pass on the novel idea of removable wings. If the design were made so that the wings could be unbolted with minimal hand tools and the aircraft then trailered for seasonal storage or maintenance I would veiw that as a more practical design for a lightweight, simple aircraft for a larger percentage of customers. Remember that Vans continues to promote the RV-12 as a POC aircraft. It could well be that when costs of producing this aircraft in a production volume are looked at it may not be feasable. Priced a sailplane lately?

What Doug?

the original question was: What others???

Doug. Which plane did you say to look at? There are no others with folding wings?

McStealth

Ctsw

mcsteatlh said:

the original question was: What others???

Doug. Which plane did you say to look at? There are no others with folding wings?

McStealth

Click to expand...

The FlightDesign CTSW has wings that detach easily, although they're not folding per se. Below is a photo of the wing spar. Note the "never needs batteries" fuel gauge.