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1911pilot
12-06-2011, 03:21 PM
Hey guys and gals, long time no post.

Life got in the way of the project again and I'm probably going to be pounding rivets in about 6 months or so again. At any rate Its time to get life insurance since I've got a little one on the way and I'm trying to figure out exactly what I need. I did a search and I couldn't find anything that seemed to relate to this.

I'm being told that I either need to fly 50+ hours a year or take an aviation exclusion on my policy. Unfortunately I do not fly right now so we are talking about a couple thousand a year instead of ~500 a year for the policy. (I intend to start flying again after I get my finish kit, I've come to terms with this being a 15+ year build...)

I've been thinking about it and wondering that maybe the aircraft insurance would cover it after I start flying. I was told that I could do a 10 year term and then renegotiate at the end of it to include aviation if my hours were up to snuff. My thoughts on that are that in 10 years I could possibly end of being SOL for life insurance after that if something bad happens.

Any thoughts on this? I know there are a couple insurance guys lurking around here. I'd appreciate any thoughts.
Thanks
Jeff

NovaBandit
12-06-2011, 03:30 PM
The first thing I did when I started flight training was call my life insurance company to confirm that there were no exclusions for single engine or other private aircraft.

The response I got was that the only exclusion was flying on military aircraft.

But I have heard second hand that many other companies won't pay out benefits at all to families of those involved in single engine aircraft accidents.

(BTW, my policy is through Minnesota Mutual Life)

Brantel
12-06-2011, 03:38 PM
Don't believe anything anyone "tells" you. Your actual policy is the final word on this subject. A ton of typical term life insurance do have an exclusion that will prevent coverage if you are killed while PIC in anything.

There are policies that do not have this exclusion but you better double check the fine print! There are those that are designed for pilots that are just fine.

There is also a difference in riding in an aircraft as a passenger and being PIC. Make sure your policy is clear on the difference. Some even call out experimentals as well.

senof28
12-06-2011, 03:49 PM
Several large carriers DO NOT exclude personal private aviation. They limit TOTAL number of hours. Seek out a life agent or financial planner who uses a life insurance BROKERAGE CO like CRUMP LIFE. Be specific in what you want, make the application COD so that you can read the contract. ALL insurance contracts have a section called "exclusions and limitations". READ IT. If anything makes you uncomfortable challange it. If it looks good pay the premium to activate it.

senof28
12-06-2011, 04:19 PM
The carriers limit total number of HOURS per year.

NovaBandit
12-06-2011, 04:29 PM
Don't believe anything anyone "tells" you. Your actual policy is the final word on this subject. A ton of typical term life insurance does have an exclusion that will prevent coverage if you are killed while PIC in anything.


That's a good point.

I only called an agent after reading my policy and not seeing anything related to aviation.

Greg Arehart
12-06-2011, 05:25 PM
Sad story. My wife's great uncle was an avid flyer until about 1952 (I've seen his logbooks, flew all sorts of stuff and could remember the details up until he died a couple years ago at 100), when the life insurance company told him he couldn't fly and keep the insurance, so he quit flying. His only flight after 1952 was for his 99th birthday four years ago in my C172 (before I had the RV done, and he probably couldn't have gotten into the RV anyway). He said that last ride was one of the best things that had happened to him in years (and not because of my piloting skills).

[rant about insurance companies deleted].

greg

WhiskeyMike
12-06-2011, 05:52 PM
Insurance (contract) law has evolved considerably since the first half of the 20th century. Modern life insurance works differently. For example, if you buy retail life insurance before you decide to become a pilot you are fully covered by the policy, with no exclusions, for any aviation activity you subsequently begin (even high risk activities like racing or crop dusting). If youíre already a pilot there are a good selection of highly rated companies that will offer full coverage with no exclusions and no extra premium. Aviation criteria vary quite a bit between carriers, and this provides a pretty wide range of options that can accommodate just about any level of flying experience. The advice given previously about finding an experienced life insurance broker to work with is the best way to achieve your goals.

Neal@F14
12-06-2011, 06:10 PM
A ton of typical term life insurance do have an exclusion that will prevent coverage if you are killed while PIC in anything.

Most every standard term life policy that I've ever read has an exclusion that pretty much states (paraphrased) "Acting as a crew member or passenger in any aircraft other than a scheduled commercial airline"... So even just riding in someone else's general aviation airplane that crashes gets excluded... and that if it's an experimental aircraft would likely make the insurance underwriter's eyeballs roll even further back into their heads.

Of course, there does exist insurance that covers flying in private aircraft but you've got to look explicitly for that and it costs more.

Mile High Relic
12-06-2011, 08:00 PM
All great respones, But I always looked at life inurance that your going to die and you are betting against yourself. Flame on

Not a flame, just another perspective.

If Life Insurance is a bet, it is a bet you hope to lose. Really though, it is just a tool. It may or may not be the right tool for you.

Life insurance is all about transferring risk. For $XXX per year, you transfer your dependent's risk to an insurance company. If you have no dependents, then carry on.

Remember, there are lots of ways to die besides an airplane accident, and if any of those leave your wife/kids in a world of hurt, insurance may be helpful.

My Brother-in-Law died suddenly with no Life Insurance, and my Sister had to sell the house, sell a car, and move. Life Insurance would have helped.

longranger
12-06-2011, 09:54 PM
If you are an AOPA member your mail boxes (both snail- and e-) should be overflowing with offers for life insurance covering pilots.

WhiskeyMike
12-06-2011, 10:14 PM
Let's be sure to understand what we're talking about here. Insurance is a risk transfer device….ALL INSURANCE. Buying life insurance is no more betting that you'll die than buying insurance for your home is betting that it will burn down. Transferring the risk of potentially large or catastrophic losses is simply sound financial management, and our economic system would not exist as we know it if such devices were not available and regularly employed. Think about it… who would loan money to build a home or a factory if the lender could not indemnify themselves against risks?

Life insurance is a unique product because unlike most forms of insurance the buyer (assuming that s/he is the insured) isn’t going to directly benefit if there’s a claim….the reason is they will be gone. People buy life insurance not for themselves, but for the benefit of others. It’s your call…

Greg Arehart
12-06-2011, 11:13 PM
If you are an AOPA member your mail boxes (both snail- and e-) should be overflowing with offers for life insurance covering pilots.

But you can tell them to take you off the mailing list. I'm pretty sure that at least half of my membership fee went to postage on life insurance offers every year..... I'd rather see those $ go to something more useful.

greg

JonJay
12-07-2011, 09:52 AM
Most insurance companies can offer an aviation rider. Ask for it and you can see what kind of costs it adds to the policy. On a 10 year term policy, for a relatively young person, flying recreationally, mine typically added around 20% to the policy cost.

mkjprice
12-07-2011, 10:22 AM
If you fly more that 50 hours a year is when they start looking at you for an exclusion. More than 200 if you are a CFI. Here is the catch with most companies - what you put down as your annual amount of flight hours is what they will go by. So I would put down an average of all of your flight time over all the years since you became a pilot. For most of us that is well less than 50 a year.

Additionally, they will allow you to purchase your life insurance without the exclusion, but it will just cost more for the premium. It all depends more on your age, health, and family history what your premium will be more than if you are a pilot or not. Shop around, and look for the best deal. Since you are a family man, I always recommend a split of permanent (Whole Life) of about $25k and cover the rest of your need with a 20-30 year term insurance. That way there will always be enough to put you in the ground, and enough to pay of your current expenses in the next 23-30 years. Usually, you can do that for around $60-100 a month if you are less than 35 years old

N941WR
12-07-2011, 11:37 AM
Years ago, right after I got my -9 flying, my insurance agent called to talk to me about life insurance. At the time we didnít have any kids and my wife is a professional, so I didnít feel the need for life insurance.

He started down the usual sales pitch when I cut him off and mentioned the rider he added to my home owners policy to cover the RV in the basement and that it was now flying. I also mentioned that he was covering my truck, which I bought to haul the race car to the track, and when I went on vacation, I could be found out west mountain climbing. The phone call ended very shortly after I got all that out.

senof28
12-07-2011, 01:35 PM
Carrier Class Details (Ask Underwriter if over age 65 or there is also a rated impairment)
American Gen Std Plus (3rd class) For term/preferred for UL at best unless a commercial pilot
AXA Pfd Best 100+ solo hrs of experience flying between 26-150 hrs per yr
Banner Std Plus (3rd class) 100+ solo hrs of experience flying between 26-150 hrs per yr
Genworth Prd NT (2nd class) 100+ solo hrs of experience flying between 26-150 hrs per yr
ING Flat Extra $0.48 100+ solo <200hrs/year. Or 400+ solo 201-300/year. Flat can be on best pfd or pfd
John Hancock Prd NT (2nd class) 300+ hrs of experience flying between 25-200 hrs/yr
Lincoln Benefit Prd NT (2nd class)_ 300 hrs of experience flying between 50-150 hrs per yr
Lincoln Life Prd NT (2nd class) 100 solo hrs of experience flying between 50-250 solo hrs per yr under age 70. Flies in US and Canada
Minnesota Life Pref Best 250+ solo hours flys between 50-250 annually.
North American Prd NT (2nd class) 100+ solo hrs of experience flying between 26-200 hrs per yr -thru age 65
Nationwide PREF older than 26, total solo hours >100 but < 200 annual to qualify for Pref NT rates. This is for private aviation only.
Nationwide STD Over 65 >1000 total hours and they should be a Std medical risk. Avation rider avaliable.
Penn Mutual STD 25-70 years old 100-500+ solo hours 25-200 hours per year AER avaliable over 70
Principal Preferred (2nd Class) 26-150; if flying 151-300 hours, need 500+ solo hours
Sun Life Std 100+ solo hours, flying 26-150 hours per year, age cap of 75 (Power Points available to get to pfd)
West Coast Life Preferred (2nd Class) ages 27-65, 400 solo hours, 26-200 hours per year, US and Canada, IFR or ATR, clean MVR, LFT's normal
TRANS Preferred (2nd Class) 150 total solo hours as pilot in command; 25-200 hours a year; age 26- 70 max; aviation must be in the U.S. IFR w/ 10 hrs of completion

Phlyan Pan
12-07-2011, 01:47 PM
All great respones, But I always looked at life inurance that your going to die and you are betting against yourself. Flame on

Certainly not a flame, but it's not the way I look at it.

When I bring an umbrella, it never rains. The second I forget it, I get caught in a downpour.

JDRhodes
12-07-2011, 02:46 PM
All great respones, But I always looked at life inurance that your going to die and you are betting against yourself. Flame on

My wife's a stay at home mom with 2 kids. If I die between now and when my kids are out of college, she'll get enough money to pay off the house and replace most of my income. She won't have to move (unless she wants to) or be forced to make major lifestyle changes. It's not a "bet" at all. It's planning.

I'd hate to know I caused major turmoil and hardship for my family because I died playing around in what is essentially a toy airplane.

Life insurance without an aviation exclusion is out there. IF you have dependents that would have a hard time living without your income, make sure you get some.

dedgemon
12-08-2011, 10:31 AM
well said.

uk_figs
12-09-2011, 08:08 AM
Prudential recently added a product that includes private aviation and experimentals, factors in total time and hours per year. In my case for 15 year term it was competitive with other products and can be renewed without consideration of medical condition (expensive renewal however).

Ken
12-09-2011, 09:50 PM
This story might be of value.

We were discussing a key man life insurance product I have but will terminate in 7 years and the question of my insurability, the cost and an aviation exclusion, especially my experimental aircraft, came up so we made an application to 3 companies.

All three approved me and two of the three gave me no penalty for experimental and the third, Prudential would remove the penalty after I have 100 hours on my RV-6. By the way I'm 67. Want to guess what a million term for the rest of my life would cost?

Ken

$29,000 a year!

pierre smith
12-10-2011, 07:02 AM
I'm in the crop-dusting business and have carried life insurance by Lafayette Life from Lafayette, Ind for more than 20 years...coverage to include me spraying crops...a lot riskier than you guys flying RV's. Give them a call.

Best,