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Delayed Delivery with Bluemountain Gen4 EFIS ?

RV9798

Well Known Member
:confused: I ordered Bluemountain EFIS/lite Gen3 in November 2005. They told me that there was a waiting time of 6 to 8 weeks. In February 2006 Bluemountain Avionics send me an email that Gen 3 was discontinued and that I was able to get Gen 4 for the same price if I was patient enough to wait till end of March 06. March came and went and when I called in April, they told me that they will be shipping in the next 2 weeks. April is gone and end of May is looming to an end and still no EFIS. Today I called and was told that maybe beginning June. I was told that they are producing it somewhere else and that they have not received shipment of the particular product. When I asked for a refund, they told me there is a 15% charge because they are almost shipping.

Does any body know what is going on and how many people are waiting for their unit? Anybody received this EFIS?


Pete :confused:

Maybe flying next month if the unit arrives???
 
RV9798 said:
When I asked for a refund, they told me there is a 15% charge because they are almost shipping?

Wow - this part sounds especially troublesome. Delays are one thing, but if the vendor delays shipment, you should always be offered a no cost refund.

I've read some questionable things in the past about this vendor (as opposed to Dynon or GRT). However, they have always seemed to have the lead in features so I had hoped to use them on my next homebuilt. Now, I will probably be forced to avoid them.
 
Same Story Different Day

Every time I hear about a delay, I bite my tongue and wonder how long this will be allowed to continue.

FWIW
 
I'm not going to make a recomendation here, and as usual you must do your own research. Guides such as this one

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/mailorder.htm

may shed some light on what's considered fair and legal business practices and what's not.

Let us know how it turns out.

edit: just to be clear and to prevent flames. I'm not suggesting the above applies. I'm merely suggesting that there are rules that govern business transactions, here's an example of such a set of rules, that ya'll must do your own research, determine where your particular transactions falls, ask around to "experts" and then take appropriate action.
 
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You guys crack me up with this BMA stuff. If you do not know that this is SOP (standard operating procedure) with BMA then you must both live in a cave, and deserve what you get. This has been going on for years. HELLO!!!

I have had this similar experience personally with this vendor, so Im not propagating junk or vendor bashing. Myself, as well as a a couple of close personal friends have had the same experience. This company is in my back yard and we get this all the time here in Atlanta.

Best,
 
Mine was on order several months after you. I have been told by BMA that no up front G4 orders will be filled until all the undelivered G3 customers are satisfied. I placed my order expecting delivery to slip several months beyond the quoted April date.

I will gladly pay the 15% charge for you if I can have your spot in the delivery sequence.

In all seriousness I would call and talk to Greg. Their backorder status is such that they will suffer no financial penalty for your cancellation. He is pretty reasonable and it would be in BMAs interest to give you a full refund.
 
I am so not in the "me too" thing but BMA proved to me they are like the little kid in the playground who drops the baseball bat and says, "no I didn't knock the window out, must have been someone else", read between the lines, "no we never have problems, must be an install problem".

I learned a long time ago, when BMA comes in soaking wet with water dripping of the nose and says, "It sure is raining outside", I go outside and look for myself........forget looking out the window, a hose may be turned on the glass.

I'm sorry for this post but you get what you deserve when you deal with these people.

YMMV.............but I doubt it.
 
In all seriousness I would call and talk to Greg. Their backorder status is such that they will suffer no financial penalty for your cancellation. He is pretty reasonable and it would be in BMAs interest to give you a full refund.[/QUOTE]


I would talk to Greg, at GRT!
 
I ordered the BMA products 92 G3s) and I too had to wait for delivery for several months. But, when I finally got them I really liked them and now I really like how they work in my plane. I agree their customer relations aren't the greatest at all times, but I also think I got a better bang for my buck than I would have gotten with Dynon.
I agree that for cookie cutter solutions, don't go to BMA. They are on the bleeding edge and you may not like working through the issues.
Some folks buy Cessnas instead of RVs...also their choice. Same reasons, probably. Don't go there if you don't want the pain of building.
I used to listen to people tell me about how bad V tail Bonanzas were to fly due to tail wag, etc. When I asked how many hours they had in one, the inevitable answer was, none, but I heard....I owned one and never had problems, so make sure you consider your source before you decide.
If I could trade in my G3s for G4s, I would, but I'm happy with my G3s and the ability to get software upgrades as they develop new releases. (Do the others do that?)
Anyway, just wanted to give you an opinion from someone who actually has BMA stuff working in their plane and is happy with the end result.
 
Reputation

As Kahuna mentioned this is not new. I would do some research before committing any money. After being bitten by an engine company, I have become a research fanatic.

If I was doing it again I would go with Advanced Systems new EFIS. Rob Hickman is an RV guy who's customer service is second to none. He will tell you the straight stuff from the get go. I have not seen any bad experiences with his stuff. If a problem does occur it is corrected quickly and professionally.
 
re: BMA

This is one area where credit card companies are your friend. If you bought something like this with a card, you could contact the company and tell them BMA has had your money since November, hasn't delivered and doesn't know when they can deliver and is refusing a full refund. Nine times out of ten, the credit card company will after investigating, issue you the refund themselves and remove the money from BMA's account whether BMA likes it or not.
 
Thanks for all your input

Hi all,

Thanks for your support. I will keep you posted on what happens

Pete

RV9a inspection on Thursday
 
EFIS/Lite G4 Delivery

We _do_ tend to reach a little (OK, a lot ) further than a lot of companies making this sort of equipment, and sometimes that translates into delays in getting new things made. Our G4 units are faster and more capable than anythinig we've ever built, and are being made robotically rather than one at a time by hand.

We've got them going together, and are simply behind plan in getting them out. Good news is they are coming together nicely, testing well, and are about ready to go out in quantity. Since going to all SMT and all robotics, we can now make machines 50 at a time. We're testing them very extensively since it's a new processor, new Unix OS, new GPS, etc. and I _really_ don't want 500 of these out there with "one little fix" needed 500 times.

We've had slowdowns with growth before, and this is the same sort of thing. We always do deliver (if sometimes later than we'd like) and the hardware works wonderfully.

If anyone has a question about when or what, just call the office and ask me. I'll be happy to fill you in in whatever detail you'd like.

Thanks!

-Greg Richter
BMA
 
Greg Richter said:
We're testing them very extensively since it's a new processor, new Unix OS, new GPS, etc.

Greg,
Could you explain the steps you have taken to ensure that the Unix OS is robust enough to run a flight critical application such as an EFIS?

Regards, Pete
Still trying to decide which EFIS to buy
 
This is looking very ulgy. I also asked what the differences were between the G4 models and I was told that there were no differences. Then later I was told that the lite models had limited flight planing. I tryed to look for more info on BMT's site and found nothing. Just a brochure about the G4. No instruction PDF is available for the G4. When I called BMT I was told that there is some delay on the new web page.
I see a public relations nightmare starting for BMT. Now the delays are showing up for production of the G4 line.
There is not even one person that has the new G4 that can post a review confirming the performance.
Greg.... You need to be more spicific as to the status of production. "Soon" and "being tested" is being pretty vauge.
I ordered mine just a couple of weeks ago and now I find that BMT has orders pending on the G3 that they did not fill. Those people will come first then all the others before me. This is looking like a very long delay for me.
I think I need to start looking elseware for my EFIS.
 
Jeff,

Not to pick your post, but it's Blue Mountain Avionics, i.e. BMA, not BMT.

I ordered a EFIS/Lite Plus at Sun-N-Fun and was told mine would be delivered toward the end of June. Still waiting patiently to see if they meet this date.
--
Michael
:cool:
 
I also asked what the differences were between the G4 models and I was told that there were no differences. Then later I was told that the lite models had limited flight planing. I tryed to look for more info on BMT's site and found nothing. Just a brochure about the G4.

Jeff,


The G4 series is primarily just faster than the G3 along with some advanced features.

With the exception of the Lite all models will interface with WxWrks recievers and allow engine monitoring.

All models will have a USB port in the panel face for updates.

All the G4 models will have extended map ranges as opposed to the G1-3s. All models will have the ability to drive the AP and put in a flightplan

Don't ave any advice for you as to what to do. My opinion is they have the features I want and are worth waiting for.

Go to the BMA website and cruise through the message board. Then review the PDFs for the G3 series. That should give you a fairly good idea about what nthe differences and new features are.

Anyone who cancels moves me one up on the delivery list.
 
Greg: it looks like wonderful technology, everyone knows that delays happen and that's just life when you're dealing with smaller companies and new products. Totally understandable.

The point of this thread, though, was Peter's problem where he's trying to get his plane flying, you hit him with unreasonable delays AND you refused to give him a full refund in spite of your inability to deliver a product.
 
Greg Richter said:
We _do_ tend to reach a little (OK, a lot ) further than a lot of companies making this sort of equipment, and sometimes that translates into delays in getting new things made.
That is very interesting as a consumer to know. However, if an individual cannot be forthright and upfront about these delays and instead promises whatever it is he/she thinks the customer wants to hear one can find out very quickly that something has come up behind him and bit him on the ***. IMHO a business has to stand behind their word just as much as their product. Greg, if you continually promise things that you cannot deliver you are only hurting yourself in the long run. It does not matter how wonderful your product is you still must have satisfied customers. Satisfying customers goes far beyond supplying them with a capable product. I am impressed with the "supposed" capabilities of your product. However, I am very reluctant to do business with people whose word I cannot trust.

We've got them going together, and are simply behind plan in getting them out.
Then don't "beg, borrow or steal" in your communications with potential customers just to get their money in your R&D coffer! Get your ducks in a row and then sell your wares.

Good news is they are coming together nicely, testing well, and are about ready to go out in quantity. Since going to all SMT and all robotics, we can now make machines 50 at a time. We're testing them very extensively since it's a new processor, new Unix OS, new GPS, etc. and I _really_ don't want 500 of these out there with "one little fix" needed 500 times.
Should this not be done BEFORE you make delivery promises?

We've had slowdowns with growth before, and this is the same sort of thing. We always do deliver (if sometimes later than we'd like) and the hardware works wonderfully.
Is this an acceptable way of doing business to you? Why don't you have contingencies for those slowdowns built into your project time lines so that you do not have the added stress of having to deal with poor customer relations on top of those slowdowns when you fail to deliver what you promised?

I am interested in this technology but I have to honestly say that no matter what wonderful technology BMA may have they are not the only ones with it. All of the EFIS outfits are continually expanding on their unit's capabilities. In all honesty, I value customer support in a much higher regard than all of the "gee whiz" gadgetry that anyone can show me. No matter what kind of widget you produce, customer support must always be, bar none, without exception the #1 goal of any business. You will live or die by it!

As a last thought I would think a very valuable public relations tool you could have used would have been your reply to this forum thread. I sure think that since you were replying to a thread that was started by one of your disgruntled customers you could have made some attempt to reply directly to Pete. Something like: "I am sorry you have been experiencing these difficulties. Why don't you call our office and ask for me and lets see if we can work out the problems you are having." You suppose that might have helped shore up some support for your business to see that on here? Just one man's thoughts on the subject.
 
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I called Blue moutain today and talked to Shella. Shella assured me that they will begin shipping on the first of June. The main reason I called was to inquire why I had not recieved my servos. I asked for them when I placed my order so I could finish up my wings. She said that they would ship out right away. I was going to cancel my order but it was then that she stated the shipping date of june first. I know that I am way down on the list.
I hope by accepting the servos I will not get charged a restocking fee on the G4 if they have any more delays.
I still think I will hold off installing the servos until the products start shipping.
 
This is looking very ulgy.

Actually I think very ugly would be a scenario where they hurried to make delivery and then you found yourself the subject of a recall as in "Crossbow"

Sure am glad I didn't cancel and jump to one of those units.
 
jeff beckley said:
I called Blue moutain today and talked to Shella. Shella assured me that they will begin shipping on the first of June. The main reason I called was to inquire why I had not recieved my servos. I asked for them when I placed my order so I could finish up my wings. She said that they would ship out right away. I was going to cancel my order but it was then that she stated the shipping date of june first. I know that I am way down on the list.
I hope by accepting the servos I will not get charged a restocking fee on the G4 if they have any more delays.
I still think I will hold off installing the servos until the products start shipping.


Well Jeff its now mid June and Im sure by now you have gotten your unit installed and are a happy camper.... WHats the latest on your delivery?
 
Do you have a link or website for Advanced Systems? Googling it turns up a lot of generic stuff, but mostly flight training.

thanks,
-john

RV7Guy said:
As Kahuna mentioned this is not new. I would do some research before committing any money. After being bitten by an engine company, I have become a research fanatic.

If I was doing it again I would go with Advanced Systems new EFIS. Rob Hickman is an RV guy who's customer service is second to none. He will tell you the straight stuff from the get go. I have not seen any bad experiences with his stuff. If a problem does occur it is corrected quickly and professionally.
 
thanks for the info!

Being a 3d graphics geek, I'm still a fan of BMA.. the synvis rendering is way better than the competition, at least in that price range.

But yeah, I've heard horror stories about delays and support issues, which are always countered with puzzlement from people who have had great experiences with them.
 
ACS EFIS?

John Courte said:
Do you have a link or website for Advanced Systems? Googling it turns up a lot of generic stuff, but mostly flight training.

thanks,
-john
I'd be very interested in seeing a ACS EFIS in action. The display is well laid out and with the larger unit, the screen size seems to be sufficient for quick scanning. In addition, the screen should be VERY readable in sunlight if it's like the existing AF2002/AF2500 engine monitor. Yes, the unit doesn't do everything that the BMA units do, but BMA has its own issues (e.g., can you get one).

My concern, as always, with small EFIS is the reliability, accuracy and stability of the ADHRS. The recent problems with Crossbow are a perfect example - here is a company whose main business is building such products, and they had problems with the NAV420/425. I would like to see an EFIS with ability to use ANY AHDRS that complies to certain interface standards, e.g., Chelton. That way, you could use a less expensive unit now and later upgrade to a more "solid" unit like the Crossbow AHRS500. Of course, this would add $$.....
 
I would like to discuss the NAV420/425 with you. My phone is four 8 0 two 86 two eight 59. I have an RV10 with Cheltons and the NAV420/425 which may have a defective heater element. David N46007
 
I would like to discuss the NAV420/425 with you. My phone is four 8 0 two 86 two eight 59. I have an RV10 with Cheltons and the NAV420/425 which may have a defective heater element. David N46007
You do realize that this thread is almost 18 years old?
 
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