Odd ATC Request....

A little over a week ago, Louise and I were flying out to SOCAL from Houston and stopped for fuel and to file out west of the Hill Country due to weather across West Texas. I filed from Sonora to Silver City (New Mexico), with the destination just a "WAG" until we saw how much deviating we'd need. Once we got past the weather and through El Paso, it was easy to see we could go farther, and I told Albuquerque Center "N188PD" is going to change our destination to Safford".

They acknowledged, cleared us to Safford via airways, and then came back a minute later with "N188PD, what is the reason for your change in destination?" I came back with "Cheaper fuel", and they didn't ask anything else, but that's the first time I have ever been asked to justify a destination change to ATC. I suspect DHS might have something to do with this, but that's just me being paranoid. Anyone else get this question recently?

Paul

OK guys - got my answer - this happens more frequently these days, and probably due to heightened security concerns. I don't want this thread to head off into a death spiral on civil liberties and the direction of the world, so thanks for the replies!

Paul

The observation and question is not at all unreasonable and perhaps the answer is of value to anyone flying IFR these days. An ATC response to a flight plan change can be expected and it must be acknowledged the controller is doing his job.

The thread does not have to disintegrate in a different direction. Certainly that was not the intent. It was merely a perspective from a different point of view and admittedly a fearful one.

ATC Request

If it were me, and I wanted to know, I would have asked for a phone number and called them to get the straight scoop, without all the drama. Pretty sure they are just like us, no?

from my ATC buddy Alex DeDominicis

I replied, as I?m supposed to, ?reason for change in destination?? His remark was ?none of your business!!?.

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Serious question: Did he violate any law?

I've had this happen to me a couple times recently as well, under VFR flight following. I fly quite often from a private strip (unmarked on charts) in west Texas to a private strip in Oklahoma (marked on charts), and usually on the return trip I'll ask for flight following to the nearest airport (Big Spring in this case), because they don't know the location of my home strip and that would be the best they could follow me too. Each time I've done that I've gotten the question when I changed destination, so now I just tell them I want flight following to my private strip 28 miles due south of Big Spring, and that's no problem at all. It seems they have less trouble logging a destination that is not registered on the charts than they do with changing a destination. I haven't had that problem on the way up north because I usually file to KOJA and fuel up (cheap fuel!), then go the 8 miles north to the ranch on CTAF.

I did have one controller press me a couple times for an identifier for my home strip, until I explained to him very clearly that it was quite literally a dirt road in a cotton field and no identifier existed. I could hear the amusement in his voice, but I think he finally understood and quit asking.

DanH said:

Serious question: Did he violate any law?

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Unfortunately, that's no longer required before being on the receiving end of an intercept or investigation.

David-aviator said:

OK guys - got my answer - this happens more frequently these days, and probably due to heightened security concerns. I don't want this thread to head off into a death spiral on civil liberties and the direction of the world, so thanks for the replies!

Paul

The observation and question is not at all unreasonable and perhaps the answer is of value to anyone flying IFR these days. An ATC response to a flight plan change can be expected and it must be acknowledged the controller is doing his job.

The thread does not have to disintegrate in a different direction. Certainly that was not the intent. It was merely a perspective from a different point of view and admittedly a fearful one.

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Ok, I am completely confused. I opened this thread in hopes to learn something new about ATC. Starting with the above post, I cannot tell what the topic was. Was there some prior post I am missing before the above? That was the first post I saw anyway. I am not interested in thread drift but I would like to know what the original discussion was about.

RVbySDI said:

Ok, I am completely confused. I opened this thread in hopes to learn something new about ATC. Starting with the above post, I cannot tell what the topic was. Was there some prior post I am missing before the above? That was the first post I saw anyway. I am not interested in thread drift but I would like to know what the original discussion was about.

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Steve - no mystery - I asked this question last night, got a few answers, then closed the thread because of the potential for off-topic political discussions. Here's the thread with the question:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=77046

....and the last thing I want anyone doing is to insult the guys in ATC - they are following procedures dictated by others - whether they like to ask or not is not their decision.

There are all sots of questions I could ask about what I learned from this, but they are political, not aeronautical in nature, which is why I closed the previous thread.

Paul

Ok, thanks guys for the link. Now I understand the topic. I appreciate the information and did find it very beneficial to read the closed post.

OK, in the interest of keeping the subject aeronautical in nature (and setting aside my libertarian ire) I have the following serious questions. Please consider all of these questions in the context of flying an RV, not a biz jet or scheduled carrier.

Is there a formal rule or regulation that requires pilots to provide a reason to ATC for an enroute change of destination? If so, please provide citation(s).

If you cancel flight following prior to reaching your stated destination, and then decide to change destinations, what happens?

It was stated that you no longer have to be in violation of the law to be investigated (hopefully I’m not the only person troubled by this). So if you felt disinclined to disclose your personal reasons to ATC for changing your destination, and this decision is not in violation of any rule, regulation or law, what could be the outcome and consequences of such an investigation?

Ironflight said:

....and the last thing I want anyone doing is to insult the guys in ATC - they are following procedures dictated by others - whether they like to ask or not is not their decision.

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Absolutely correct.

When a airliner suddenly leaves a scheduled route it makes sense to ask why. Every US controller would sound the alert.....with or without a mandate from management.

I suspect the majority think grilling the rest of us about a destination change is silly.

Ok, back to the question; did that young first officer violate any law by refusing to offer a reason for a destination change?

It's important, because there is no right answer. For sure the pilot response will never be "Infidel scum, I am a terrorist!"

POSTSCRIPT: Just saw Whisky Mike's post previous to this one. Well put Mike...I second every question.

I personally HATE asking for the reason of destination change. Been a controller for 20 years and this is a fairly new procedure. It only applies to IFR operations. If you cancel IFR prior to making a change, the controller should not ask. It does not apply to VFR flight following.

Quote: His remark was ?none of your business!!?.
I replied, as I?m supposed to, ?reason for change in destination?? His remark was ?none of your business!!?.

DanH said:

Serious question: Did he violate any law?

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So, is because She said so a better answer

We appreciate you guys

David Brent said:

I personally HATE asking for the reason of destination change. Been a controller for 20 years and this is a fairly new procedure. It only applies to IFR operations. If you cancel IFR prior to making a change, the controller should not ask. It does not apply to VFR flight following.

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David, we really appreciate all you ATC guys for the inputs and no, we don't hold it against you. Times are-a-changin' it seems and we all have to adapt...thanks.

Best,

I've been asked when using VFR flight following. I tried a few times to get through some weather and then had to turn back to the airport I left from. They asked why the change in destination and I told them. It was all well.

This was outside of Pittsburgh and I think we had a VIP TFR in Ohio so they were just being cautious.

edit: I'm not arguing your VFR statement. I'm just alerting people it can happen under VFR depending on the controller and situation.

David Brent said:

I personally HATE asking for the reason of destination change. Been a controller for 20 years and this is a fairly new procedure. It only applies to IFR operations. If you cancel IFR prior to making a change, the controller should not ask. It does not apply to VFR flight following.

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I, too , have just started noticing this inquiry earlier this summer. I don't think it's been in place since 9/11 as I know I haven't just recently started changing destinations while enroute. Usually we do it for fuel and/or the winds aloft may be different than forecast. If you remember ealrier this year allegedly there were some plots to use small aircraft for terrorist purposes, so it is probably just a inquiry to make certain the change in destination is legitimate. Some ATC centers seem more regular in their inquiries than others.

Vic

Questions for the controllers: What ATC/CFR regulation requires you to ask this question? Whom do you give the answer to? Do you to determine if the answer is appropriate/relevant or not? If so, what criteria have you been given to make such decision.


I tried to find the answer in the FAA's Pilot/Controller Glossary, but all I found was this:

ATC SECURITY SERVICES − Communications and security tracking provided by an ATC facility in support of the DHS, the DOD, or other Federal security elements in the interest of national security. Such security services are only applicable within designated areas. ATC security services do not include ATC basic radar services or flight following.

ATC SECURITY SERVICES POSITION − The position responsible for providing ATC security services as defined. This position does not provide
ATC, IFR separation, or VFR flight following services, but is responsible for providing security services in an area comprising airspace assigned to one or more ATC operating sectors. This position may be combined with control positions.

ATC SECURITY TRACKING − The continuous tracking of aircraft movement by an ATC facility in support of the DHS, the DOD, or other security elements for national security using radar (i.e., radar tracking) or other means (e.g., manual tracking) without providing basic radar services (including traffic advisories) or other ATC services not defined in this section.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/pcg.pdf



I also looked in JO 7110.65T and couldn't find anything.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

Thx,

-Jim

pierre smith said:

?...Times are-a-changin' it seems and we all have to adapt...thanks.

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I learned a new "AVIATON SAFETY RULE" today that I wanted to share with everyone. Not only do we apparently have new Soviet-style rules on traveling in the United States. Seems that now I am not allowed to convene a gathering of 5 or more people at my hangar during the coming air show without 10 day pre-approval by the city of Houston!

Well, I felt a little curious today after hearing this so I called and asked COH Airport Ops.

Answer - "SECURITY CONCERNS."

Of course! Why did I even ask? Never mind the 40-50,000 spectators that are on the other side of the chain link fence, 20 feet from my hangar.

Yep. Times are changing! And the terrorists have won.

I think the real point is being missed here. Is someone going to get violated for not answering the question? Probably not, but it's not an enforcement action situation. The ATC controller is doing his job, true, but why the question? The Department of Homeland Security has required it, but why? They have painted aviation with a pretty wide brush. We are all a threat. They don't know that much about us and they don't care. After 9-11, aviation is viewed as a threat by a lot of people. We need to do whatever we can to dispell that misconception, and denying an ATC required question isn't the way to do it. The fact that the DHS has completely missed what to do about what happened on 9-11, it can't be corrected by us refusing to give a reason for deviating. They just need a reason. As long as you don't say it's because you are being hijacked, or use the "T" word in your response, nothing will happen, and truthfully, ATC doesn't care as long as there is no threat. If we want to continue to enjoy our freedom, we need to learn to make a few small changes to get along in an era of hightened fear - no matter how misguided it is.....

fehdxl said:

Questions for the controllers: What ATC/CFR regulation requires you to ask this question? Whom do you give the answer to? Do you to determine if the answer is appropriate/relevant or not? If so, what criteria have you been given to make such decision.

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The FAA established the Dynamic Events Network (DEN for short) as a central data collecting entity to identify threats. We are required to report this info as well as emergencies and loss of communication. At the air traffic facility level, we do not determine if the answer is valid or suspicious. We simply pass it on to the DEN.

David Brent said:

The FAA established the Dynamic Events Network (DEN for short) as a central data collecting entity to identify threats. We are required to report this info as well as emergencies and loss of communication. At the air traffic facility level, we do not determine if the answer is valid or suspicious. We simply pass it on to the DEN.

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Thanks for the info!

-Jim