I am thinking about putting Airflow Performance fuel injection on my already flying O-320 RV6A. I have talked to Don at Airflow. My question is for you guy's that have put the fuel injection on by yourself. Is it very hard to do? Can a simple man put it all on or should you have someone do it for you? For the guy's already flying with Airflows fuel injection how do you like it and have you had any trouble?
Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
Airflow Performance Fuel injection?
- Thread starter m3tt5
- Start date
dlloyd3
Well Known Member
Airflow Performance
I had never seen their system prior to buying my partially assembled engine. None of the fuel injection system was installed. AFP provides notebook containing instructions. It is not an advertisement as so many are but all the details on installation, adjustment, maintenance, troubleshooting, etc. Everything you need to know is in there. Once my engine was running, I diagnosed a lean idle mixture, check in the book and made the needed adjustments. Works just like it should. I am not a hands on type person, all the engine related stuff was difficult for me but this part was fairly easy.
I had never seen their system prior to buying my partially assembled engine. None of the fuel injection system was installed. AFP provides notebook containing instructions. It is not an advertisement as so many are but all the details on installation, adjustment, maintenance, troubleshooting, etc. Everything you need to know is in there. Once my engine was running, I diagnosed a lean idle mixture, check in the book and made the needed adjustments. Works just like it should. I am not a hands on type person, all the engine related stuff was difficult for me but this part was fairly easy.
Last edited:
flion
Well Known Member
The installation is very simple and, as Dave mentioned, the instructions are very complete. Don is also very good about supplying tech support. I think anyone who could build an RV could easily do the conversion.
Now, let me qualify that 'easily'. You may find that you have to move your existing engine controls. You will almost certainly have to re-plumb your fuel system from the selector forward to include the high-pressure pump and filter. And, if you use the fuel purge (I highly recommend it), you will have to plumb a return and run a control cable for the purge valve. So it won't be quite a 'bolt and go' project but it should be well within your capabilities.
I have yet to get mine tuned but I get quite good results with my 'out-of-the-box' installation.
Now, let me qualify that 'easily'. You may find that you have to move your existing engine controls. You will almost certainly have to re-plumb your fuel system from the selector forward to include the high-pressure pump and filter. And, if you use the fuel purge (I highly recommend it), you will have to plumb a return and run a control cable for the purge valve. So it won't be quite a 'bolt and go' project but it should be well within your capabilities.
I have yet to get mine tuned but I get quite good results with my 'out-of-the-box' installation.
db1yg
Well Known Member
Timely questions!
I took delivery of an AFP FI system/mech fuel pump/new fuel pressure sender a month ago. I will be doing the conversion from carb to FI on 9DB after we finish a prop change from Catto and when it warms a little around the hangar here in Prescott. I did some visual checks with the servo and it appears the throttle cable to the carb will work with the FI but I have my doubts about the mixture cable--may need a longer one. Sure would like to hear from someone who has done this conversion on this--or other--issues to address in this conversion.
Cheers,
db
I took delivery of an AFP FI system/mech fuel pump/new fuel pressure sender a month ago. I will be doing the conversion from carb to FI on 9DB after we finish a prop change from Catto and when it warms a little around the hangar here in Prescott. I did some visual checks with the servo and it appears the throttle cable to the carb will work with the FI but I have my doubts about the mixture cable--may need a longer one. Sure would like to hear from someone who has done this conversion on this--or other--issues to address in this conversion.
Cheers,
db
Walt
Well Known Member
I did the conversion from carb to AFP a couple of years ago (a search will probably bring up some previous posts on this subject).
Not overly difficult but it is a lot of work and lots of new parts. Along with the AFP kit you'll need new throttle and mixture cables, make all new brackets, purge valve cable/plumbing install (I already had provisions for purge back to one tank), drill new firewall holes, a bunch of new teflon fuel hoses, new mechanical and electrical fuel pumps with associated plumbing, wiring for relocated FF sensor, etc... you get the idea.
It's one of those jobs you think you can do in about 2 weeks but ends up taking 4.
System runs great and glad I did it!
Not overly difficult but it is a lot of work and lots of new parts. Along with the AFP kit you'll need new throttle and mixture cables, make all new brackets, purge valve cable/plumbing install (I already had provisions for purge back to one tank), drill new firewall holes, a bunch of new teflon fuel hoses, new mechanical and electrical fuel pumps with associated plumbing, wiring for relocated FF sensor, etc... you get the idea.
It's one of those jobs you think you can do in about 2 weeks but ends up taking 4.
System runs great and glad I did it!
I did the conversion from carb to AFP a couple of years ago (a search will probably bring up some previous posts on this subject).
Not overly difficult but it is a lot of work and lots of new parts. Along with the AFP kit you'll need new throttle and mixture cables, make all new brackets, purge valve cable/plumbing install (I already had provisions for purge back to one tank), drill new firewall holes, a bunch of new teflon fuel hoses, new mechanical and electrical fuel pumps with associated plumbing, wiring for relocated FF sensor, etc... you get the idea.
It's one of those jobs you think you can do in about 2 weeks but ends up taking 4.
System runs great and glad I did it!
Wow Did it really take 4 week's?
Walt
Well Known Member
Yea about that... of course I had a regular job at the time so a few hours a day and the weekends is all I had to actually "work" on it. Then there is the ordering of hoses and cables after you have everything installed (so you can figure the correct lengths) which takes a week to get.
Mine is already flying. So I don't know if I can go that long without flying. I never thought it took all that.
Walt
Well Known Member
You may certainly be able to do it faster than I did, especially if you dedicated a full week to the job.
I admit to working a bit slow, but "perfection" takes time
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Your best bet is Don Rivera....
...at Airflow Performance, since it's his system. The guy really knows his stuff and helped me balance my six injectors in one afternoon on my -10.
There really is nothing magical or difficult to operate his injection system. When you get closer to flying, either call him or PM me.
Regards,
...at Airflow Performance, since it's his system. The guy really knows his stuff and helped me balance my six injectors in one afternoon on my -10.
There really is nothing magical or difficult to operate his injection system. When you get closer to flying, either call him or PM me.
Regards,
Don at Airflow
Well Known Member
Time to install
Determining the time it takes to install a fuel injection system on your plane is a difficult value to assume. I have been working on planes for 35 years and designing fuel injection systems for 27 years. I have installed a system on a customer?s aircraft that took a little over 110-man hours and I have installed a system on a customer?s plane that took 22 man-hours (hoses and all). It really depends, some people work faster than others (I?m typically slower) but on the other hand we can probably do an installation faster because we?ve done it before and we have all the tools, mill, lathe, welding equipment, hose making material etc. to do the job. To be conservative I would say the average person should be able to do the install on a flying RV (convert from carb to injection) in 40-50 man-hours. Depending on what kit you install FM kit with purge valve or FM-150 kit (no purge valve) will change the amount of effort you will have to expend doing the install. I will say that installing a FM kit on a flying, say, RV-6 is pretty straight forward, as the FM-200 fits in the same place as the MA4-5 carburetor. You can even use the existing cables as I have just put a 6? extension by threading a piece of 3/8? round aluminum stock to attach to the cable end and use a male rod end bearing on the other end to attach to the mixture control. A FM-150 system is a little easier as you don?t have to put in a purge valve cable or run the plumbing for the purge return, which tees into one of the tank feed lines. For us this is no big deal, for others it?s like pulling teeth.
So you see there?s no specific answer as for time to install. We do supply however a 180+ page Installation and Service Manual with each system. In it is the theory of operation, installation, tuning, troubleshooting and maintenance. There are numerous appendices that show numerous pictures of different installations to show you how to install the system and give you ideas if the install is unique. You can purchase the manual in advance for $50.00. If you then purchase one of our fuel injection systems, we discount the $50.00 of the price of the kit.
Don
Determining the time it takes to install a fuel injection system on your plane is a difficult value to assume. I have been working on planes for 35 years and designing fuel injection systems for 27 years. I have installed a system on a customer?s aircraft that took a little over 110-man hours and I have installed a system on a customer?s plane that took 22 man-hours (hoses and all). It really depends, some people work faster than others (I?m typically slower) but on the other hand we can probably do an installation faster because we?ve done it before and we have all the tools, mill, lathe, welding equipment, hose making material etc. to do the job. To be conservative I would say the average person should be able to do the install on a flying RV (convert from carb to injection) in 40-50 man-hours. Depending on what kit you install FM kit with purge valve or FM-150 kit (no purge valve) will change the amount of effort you will have to expend doing the install. I will say that installing a FM kit on a flying, say, RV-6 is pretty straight forward, as the FM-200 fits in the same place as the MA4-5 carburetor. You can even use the existing cables as I have just put a 6? extension by threading a piece of 3/8? round aluminum stock to attach to the cable end and use a male rod end bearing on the other end to attach to the mixture control. A FM-150 system is a little easier as you don?t have to put in a purge valve cable or run the plumbing for the purge return, which tees into one of the tank feed lines. For us this is no big deal, for others it?s like pulling teeth.
So you see there?s no specific answer as for time to install. We do supply however a 180+ page Installation and Service Manual with each system. In it is the theory of operation, installation, tuning, troubleshooting and maintenance. There are numerous appendices that show numerous pictures of different installations to show you how to install the system and give you ideas if the install is unique. You can purchase the manual in advance for $50.00. If you then purchase one of our fuel injection systems, we discount the $50.00 of the price of the kit.
Don
flion
Well Known Member
Don can probably answer this better but the purge valve allows fuel to be routed from the distribution spider, typically back to a fuel tank though I seem to recall that some have routed it back to a point before the high-pressure pump. The idea is that you can then pump fresh (cool) fuel into the system because the hot fuel at the spider has someplace to go. Hot start procedure is to run the pump for a few seconds with the valve on return to circulate cool fuel through the system and then close the valve and start the engine. You can also open the valve to stop the engine (no fuel to the spider) which leaves the mixture and throttle controls in the proper setting for restart (just close the purge valve).
Plumbing the purge valve requires you to route a line back to a tank (or at least back into the fuel system). On mine, I have a bulkhead fitting on the firewall and then a hard line along the right side back to the tank. Then there needs to be a penetration through the fuselage side and a fitting in the root rib (near the top) for the return line. For an already flying RV, that means draining the tank, removing it, installing the fitting, routing the lines, and re-installing everything. In order to avoid aluminum chips in my tank when I drilled for the fitting, I opened the end plate (mine uses cork and fuel lube instead of proseal) and stood the tank on end, root upward. While drilling the fitting hole, I held a dixie cup underneath (against the root rib) to catch chips and then used some duct tape to pick up any visible debris.
As I said in an earlier post, nothing about it was particularly hard. It was fairly time-consuming and I was very careful to check for leaks in the system as I buttoned it back up as well as checking for indications of debris in the system (not just from drilling but also simply because the system had been opened). Due diligence has paid off; since plumbing the purge, there have been no problems noted.
Plumbing the purge valve requires you to route a line back to a tank (or at least back into the fuel system). On mine, I have a bulkhead fitting on the firewall and then a hard line along the right side back to the tank. Then there needs to be a penetration through the fuselage side and a fitting in the root rib (near the top) for the return line. For an already flying RV, that means draining the tank, removing it, installing the fitting, routing the lines, and re-installing everything. In order to avoid aluminum chips in my tank when I drilled for the fitting, I opened the end plate (mine uses cork and fuel lube instead of proseal) and stood the tank on end, root upward. While drilling the fitting hole, I held a dixie cup underneath (against the root rib) to catch chips and then used some duct tape to pick up any visible debris.
As I said in an earlier post, nothing about it was particularly hard. It was fairly time-consuming and I was very careful to check for leaks in the system as I buttoned it back up as well as checking for indications of debris in the system (not just from drilling but also simply because the system had been opened). Due diligence has paid off; since plumbing the purge, there have been no problems noted.
Retrofit Fuel Injection?
I am asking the question below because I haven't yet purchased an engine (haven't started and will not start building until this fall). So I am curious - the price difference between a new experiemental IO-360 ($25,300) verses an o-360 ($23,500) or about $2k. Is the after market that much cheaper or more reliable? Are those installing the aftermarket FI doing so because they found a great deal on a used Lycoming?
Forgive my innocence, but I am trying to understand something basic, and fear I am not coming across well. At one time their were independent shops selling rebuilt Lycoming engines for the experimental market that were cheaper than Van's engines. Is this still the case?
Appreciate the education, folks.
Greg
I am asking the question below because I haven't yet purchased an engine (haven't started and will not start building until this fall). So I am curious - the price difference between a new experiemental IO-360 ($25,300) verses an o-360 ($23,500) or about $2k. Is the after market that much cheaper or more reliable? Are those installing the aftermarket FI doing so because they found a great deal on a used Lycoming?
Forgive my innocence, but I am trying to understand something basic, and fear I am not coming across well. At one time their were independent shops selling rebuilt Lycoming engines for the experimental market that were cheaper than Van's engines. Is this still the case?
Appreciate the education, folks.
Greg
The purge valve actually does three things with an FM200. Yes, it allows circulating cool fuel through a heat soaked system. It also serves as the positive fuel flow shutoff (cleaner engine shutdown), and it is used as the primary fuel control for hot or cold starting. The mixture control knob is not used for start or shutdown; it pretty much stays full rich on the ground except for taxi leaning well above MSL.
I stress three purposes because for panel planning you should realize you'll operate the purge valve for every start and stop. It is not merely a "hot start knob" to be stuck off in a corner somewhere.
And don't wimp out on the control....you want a knob or lever with an easily manipulated positive lock for position, quality push-pull cable, and the same sort of cable temination you would use on a fuel servo or carb.
Again, remember, if you don't want to rig and operate a purge valve you can buy the new FM150. FWIW, I like my FM200/IO390 combination.
Tee the return into a tank line prior to the fuel selector. Select the other tank for purge operation.
Bob Kuykendall
Well Known Member
You have to be careful with those designations. Without the letters and numbers following the "360" you don't know whether you're comparing parallel-valve engines with angle-valve engines.
The big difference between the O-360 and the IO-360 that Vans sells is the IO has the forward facing cold induction sump. That is $1500+ all by itself. I plan on purchasing my engine thru Mattituck. Close to home and I can order it EXACTLY how I want it configured. And, the configuration is set up, tuned and bench tested before shipping.
The designations and prices are Van's.
So, where can one go to compare engine vendor's? What would you want in an engine, other than fuel injection (well, actually a turbocharger, but that is expensive and heavy?)?
Any help, direction, advise etc appreciated!
Greg
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Actually....
...the designations are Lycoming's. The prices are Van's.
Best,
...the designations are Lycoming's. The prices are Van's.
Best,
Pretty much all of the experimental engine builders have Ads on the Vansairforce.net website. Mattituck, Barrett, and others. Those that are flying can give you their biased opinions on why xxxx's engines are better than yyyy's.
Tt
