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View Full Version : Masters Degree Survey on ADS-B for Aircraft Owners


Brian130
12-03-2010, 12:59 PM
VAF,

I'm about done with my Masters are ERAU. My last project is a survey and data analysis trying to forecast voluntary compliance with the ADS-B mandates by the FAA. AvWeb and others have done similar, but less rigorous studies/surveys.

To that end, I've written a survey to collect data from general aviation aircraft owners (Van's or any other). If you own (sole ownership, partnership, leadership in a club, etc) then I'd like your input. If you own more than one aircraft, I'd like you to complete the survey once for each aircraft. The reason for that is I would expect you to equip your VFR RV-3 very differently from your King Air or PC-12, and I want to sample all types.

If you do not own an aircraft, but know someone not on this board that does, I'd appreciate if you would forward this URL to them so they can complete the survey.

Here's the link: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/333932/ADS-B-Equipage

Please PM me if you encounter problems with the survey or if you have questions about the questions, how the data will be used, or anything else.

The survey takes about 4 minutes to complete and is anonymous; no personally identifiable information is collected. Even your IP address is not stored.

Thank you in advance,
Brian

rv7charlie
12-03-2010, 02:31 PM
Don't know if it's appropriate, but here's what I wrote:

"Wording of q11 is confusing; agree/disagree answers make it sound like I'm expressing an opinion about ads-b, not my level of familiarity.

Price point pressure answers are a bit nonsensical. ads-b out is currently VERY expensive (from my wallet's perspective), certainly well above $3k just for a mode S transponder, and ads-b in weather is already available for under $1300.

Out will have minimal effect on safety; in will have HUGE effect due to availability of weather for free to those of us who just can't justify $30-50/month for a few long cross country flights per year. I can forget the one-time pain of purchase, but the recurring charges I can never forget."

Hope that's helpful,

Charlie

N941WR
12-03-2010, 09:23 PM
Without the ability to tell where aircraft are without electrical systems / transponders ADS-B will only lull pilots into thinking they are protected and they will stop looking out the window.

The FAA is going to have a difficult time mandating the installation of transponders on Cubs, T-crafts, Champs, etc. that donít have electrical systems and unshielded ignition harnesses. Even if they come up with a battery powered transponder/ADS-B out system the cost of that plus new mags, wires, and plugs could easily hit half the value of a Champ or T-craft.

The other thing most pilots do not realize is that with ADS-B out, your aircraft will be identified to ATC by a unique serial number. Bust some airspace by 1 foot or make some other minor transgression and you WILL hear from the FAA. Big Brother will be watching ALL the time with ADS-B.

Ron Lee
12-03-2010, 10:54 PM
Bill, I suspect that aircraft that do not currently have to have a transponder will not have to have ADS-B Out. Of course, you do not get traffic or weather unless you get ADS-B In.

If you stay out of places that now require a transponder you do not need to install ADS-B Out. So all that airspace below 10,000' could have beaucoup airplanes flying around with ZERO surveillance.

A missing question is what value/operational utility do you get for installing ADS-B Out that you do not have today? Answer: NOTHING. But you do get to spend TBD money so the FAA can save money. Great deal.

Rick_A
12-03-2010, 11:23 PM
Without the ability to tell where aircraft are without electrical systems / transponders ADS-B will only lull pilots into thinking they are protected and they will stop looking out the window.


The other thing most pilots do not realize is that with ADS-B out, your aircraft will be identified to ATC by a unique serial number. Bust some airspace by 1 foot or make some other minor transgression and you WILL hear from the FAA. Big Brother will be watching ALL the time with ADS-B.

Is the much different that folks with Mode S and TIS have today? After upgrading to a GTX 330, I feel that the traffic information is well worth broadcasting my tail number all the time.

Rather then being lulled in to feeling like I'm protected, TIS makes me much more attentive. I now see lots of traffic that I never would have seen without it. I could not believe the amount of traffic that I was blissfully ignorant of before I had traffic displayed.

If anything, not having traffic capability lulls one in to a sense of false security.

rv7charlie
12-04-2010, 09:02 AM
" Of course, you do not get traffic or weather unless you get ADS-B In. "


The stuff I've read in magazines & online indicates that weather will be available without 'Out'. (There are already a couple of receivers on the market; one will work directly with GRT displays.) FAA should have leased the XM sat transponder using our gas tax money to supply 'free' weather. It would have had a bigger impact on safety than any other thing they can possibly do.

I wholeheartedly agree that I don't like telling big brother everywhere I go, and I also agree that the traffic feature is virtually worthless except in high density urban environments where non-transponder a/c are rare. There was a proposal several years ago from a university to have INdependent position broadcasts. The system worked more or less like a computer network, listening for gaps in the assigned traffic spectrum & then squirting position info. The other half of the equipment used the listen portion to display the position reports it heard. Of course, FAA ignored it because it wasn't DEpendent on big brother...

Charlie

Ron Lee
12-04-2010, 09:31 AM
FAA should have leased the XM sat transponder using our gas tax money to supply 'free' weather. It would have had a bigger impact on safety than any other thing they can possibly do.

At first glance this is an excellent idea. Whether XM platform or WAAS does not matter. A GEO Sat based transmission solution would ensure far better coverage than their current ground-based solution.

If anyone can get a color-coded US map that shows projected lowest AGL coverage for all the weather/traffic info, that would be very instructive.

rwhittier
12-04-2010, 09:50 AM
Without the ability to tell where aircraft are without electrical systems / transponders ADS-B will only lull pilots into thinking they are protected and they will stop looking out the window.

I have an Avidyne TAS 600 plus a Garmin 330 that receives TIS in the aircraft I fly most of the time (not in an RV). Arguably this is the equivalent of the traffic capabilities of ADS-B in since I get all transponder equipped traffic and I squawk my tail number everywhere I go (no busts, yet anyway ;) ). I consider both of them to be the backup to my eyes, not the other way around. I have flown with a lot of pilots that have Skywatch or similar traffic systems and I think they are MORE aware of traffic (the system reminds you to keep your vigilance up pretty successfully). I have not once seen a pilot with those systems ever act as you predict, but I suppose its possible. I have seen the system announce "Traffic" and a pilot will look to the screen first to see where the threat is and then outside to acquire it. This is a bad habit, probably formed in the days of a simple "traffic" warning without other information. Newer systems say "Traffic, 2 O'Clock, same altitude" negating the the need to look anywhere but to your right. Still, its a bad habit and one to guard against.

The number of non transponder/non electrical system equipped aircraft in the fleet is very low. I agree the FAA should not mandate ADS-B on those (geez, I don't like them mandating it on me). It is just is not enough aircraft to represent a statistical threat. Sure its a hole in coverage, but its a minor one.

Ron Lee
12-04-2010, 10:12 AM
May have found something of value:

http://tinyurl.com/39523sf

Now I need to see if it is current and that I really understand what it is showing....which is not great coverage.

Brian130
12-08-2010, 09:42 PM
Thanks to everyone that replied! I've got enough responses for my project so I'm going to close the survey. If you have any specific comments on ADS-B and your personal plans to equip or not that you think might be helpful to my research, please PM me.