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10 vs Mooney ???
- Thread starter mcsteatlh
- Start date
Captain_John
Well Known Member
One thing I found out in building my -7 is in order to finish, you must first start.
How much time ya got?
Do you want to build or fly?
I can't own and build at the same time. I am mooching planes at every turn and hope to eventually have an RV when the time comes that it is done.
CJ
How much time ya got?
Do you want to build or fly?
I can't own and build at the same time. I am mooching planes at every turn and hope to eventually have an RV when the time comes that it is done.
CJ
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Wow good question
Moony M20J (RV-10 in brackets)
Horsepower: 200.0 (260.0 HP)
Top Speed: 175 kts (208 mph/180 kts)
Cruise Speed: 170 kts (197 mph/ 171 kts)
Stall Speed (dirty): 53 kts (63 mph / 46 kts)
Takeoff Landing
Ground Roll: 880 ft (500 ft)
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1550 ft (not given)
Rate Of Climb: 1030 fpm (1450 fpm)
Ceiling: 18800 ft (20,000 ft)
Gross Weight: 2740 lbs (2700 lbs)
Empty Weight: 1671 lbs (1600 lbs)
Fuel Capacity: 64.00 gal (?)
Range: 690 nm (825 sm / 717 nm)
Keep in mind that we are comparing 260 hp against 200 hp
Cost of a used M20J is about $60,000 to $120,000 for a nice one
Cost to build a RV-10 $??,??? but lest assume at least $120,000
Consider and older Mooney with 180 hp with purchase of $40-$60k.
With such short flights may be a C172/C182. (I am a big Mooney fan though)
Obviously the cost of annuals with the retract and slave to AI for sign off is going to be more than the RV-10.
You can go out and buy a Mooney today, a RV-10 could be a year to never. By the time you finish the kids may be out of the house and you should be building a two seat-er? It sounds like you have a need NOW?
I don't know what your time and ratings are, but a Mooney with retract is going to be expensive to insure if you are low time (total/retract/Mooney) and don't have an Inst. rating. Check it out. As a CFI I flew with many of club member on trips to get their experience in type/retract up to make the insurance company comfortable. I love the Mooney, they go, nice on gas and handle well. Visability is just OK.
It is an excellent question because the RV-10 is in direct competition with the Mooney, Older Bonanza and Comanche (beautiful wing). The 6 banger Bonanza and the Comanche 250 (6 banger models) can be bargains on the used market. The Mooney and Comanche of course are also available in 4-banger models. Now are talking about older panels and TLC to keep them going. There is no absolute answer, but I will give you my gut feel.
If you are getting a good deal and never owned a plane before I think the Mooney is a great option. You can always sell it. Planes retain value. In the mean time get the tail kit and start on it. Obviously owning a plane will take time and money away from a RV-10 project. The other option if your life style permits is build a RV-10 quickly, starting with a QB kit. However have you built a plane before. Be realistic you need 1500-2000 hours of time. With the family when will you find time, but many have done it. SO what if it takes 2-3-4 years, but does it matter to you? Good Luck with the decision. George
We all can go on with the joy of building and so on. We can talk about the handling of a RV (flown -3,-4,-6 but never a -10). When I was a very active CFI I flew a few Mooney's, 201 and 231. I love them. I am not a big wide guy but it is a little plane cockpit wise, but very functional and sufficient. If you compare the numbers between an (I)O-540 RV-10 and a Mooney (180, 200 hp) it compares very well.mcsteatlh said:
Moony M20J (RV-10 in brackets)
Horsepower: 200.0 (260.0 HP)
Top Speed: 175 kts (208 mph/180 kts)
Cruise Speed: 170 kts (197 mph/ 171 kts)
Stall Speed (dirty): 53 kts (63 mph / 46 kts)
Takeoff Landing
Ground Roll: 880 ft (500 ft)
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1550 ft (not given)
Rate Of Climb: 1030 fpm (1450 fpm)
Ceiling: 18800 ft (20,000 ft)
Gross Weight: 2740 lbs (2700 lbs)
Empty Weight: 1671 lbs (1600 lbs)
Fuel Capacity: 64.00 gal (?)
Range: 690 nm (825 sm / 717 nm)
Keep in mind that we are comparing 260 hp against 200 hp
Cost of a used M20J is about $60,000 to $120,000 for a nice one
Cost to build a RV-10 $??,??? but lest assume at least $120,000
Consider and older Mooney with 180 hp with purchase of $40-$60k.
With such short flights may be a C172/C182. (I am a big Mooney fan though)
Obviously the cost of annuals with the retract and slave to AI for sign off is going to be more than the RV-10.
You can go out and buy a Mooney today, a RV-10 could be a year to never. By the time you finish the kids may be out of the house and you should be building a two seat-er? It sounds like you have a need NOW?
I don't know what your time and ratings are, but a Mooney with retract is going to be expensive to insure if you are low time (total/retract/Mooney) and don't have an Inst. rating. Check it out. As a CFI I flew with many of club member on trips to get their experience in type/retract up to make the insurance company comfortable. I love the Mooney, they go, nice on gas and handle well. Visability is just OK.
It is an excellent question because the RV-10 is in direct competition with the Mooney, Older Bonanza and Comanche (beautiful wing). The 6 banger Bonanza and the Comanche 250 (6 banger models) can be bargains on the used market. The Mooney and Comanche of course are also available in 4-banger models. Now are talking about older panels and TLC to keep them going. There is no absolute answer, but I will give you my gut feel.
If you are getting a good deal and never owned a plane before I think the Mooney is a great option. You can always sell it. Planes retain value. In the mean time get the tail kit and start on it. Obviously owning a plane will take time and money away from a RV-10 project. The other option if your life style permits is build a RV-10 quickly, starting with a QB kit. However have you built a plane before. Be realistic you need 1500-2000 hours of time. With the family when will you find time, but many have done it. SO what if it takes 2-3-4 years, but does it matter to you? Good Luck with the decision. George
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Ask, and ye shall receive.
George, thanks. Very insightful and honest. Yes, a 'J' model 200 horse power in the $100,000 range is what I'm looking at. Yes I'm low time. Yes I'm building hours in a 172. Yes the range of my mission is not all that far considering...
No one has built and sold a 10 before I'm assuming, so the market hasn't been established. Pure speculation but I bet someone somewhere will be willing to put out big bucks for a turn key one. Big bucks compared to aqusition and completion buy the builder of course.
Thought about putting this question on the main board but George pretty much put it on the line.
Thanks again.
McStealth
George, thanks. Very insightful and honest. Yes, a 'J' model 200 horse power in the $100,000 range is what I'm looking at. Yes I'm low time. Yes I'm building hours in a 172. Yes the range of my mission is not all that far considering...
No one has built and sold a 10 before I'm assuming, so the market hasn't been established. Pure speculation but I bet someone somewhere will be willing to put out big bucks for a turn key one. Big bucks compared to aqusition and completion buy the builder of course.
Thought about putting this question on the main board but George pretty much put it on the line.
Thanks again.
McStealth
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Crazy money
Historically homebuilts sold for less than the cost it took the original builder to build it in most cases, however, the RV's have always had good resale and you could sell them for a little more than the build cost. A nice example can be sold for a little profit, but the prices have taken a jump. A $45,000 RV, 5-years ago is now a $60,000 RV. Also many RV's are now being built with new fuel injected engines, new constant speed props, fancy EFIS class cockpits and professional paint and interior. The early RV's where typically fitted with smaller carburated engines and fixed wood props with VFR instruments, so the price reflected this as well. I would say a typical new two seat RV is on the $80-$100K range. Bottom line, there are no bargains or steals in RV's. A new RV-10 is going to cost way more than $100,000 for sure. Now how people got the stones to ask $80,000 more than the build cost for a RV-10, an "amateur built plane", I don't know. It is a free country but it is crazy money, sepecially when there are so many great 4 place planes well under that. Obviously building is the way to go if you want a RV-10 in my opinion. It not hard and the kits are so good and the advent of QB kits makes build time an all time low. I did not emphasize this but BUILDING IS FUN, challenging and you will learn new skills. There is nothing like flying a plane you built.
Now the good news is if you do build a RV you can expect to make money if you ever sell it. Now I laugh about that. I sold my RV-4 for a "profit" many years ago, but when I included my labor, I made about $3.00 an hour, when I figure the 2000 hour it took to build. I sold it a little before the bubble and RV-4's tend to go for a little less than other comparable models, which makes them the bargain of the RV's. Still a nice RV-4 is $60,000 or more.
As far a Alex and kevinh they are just jealous. I am sure your two kids are the apple of your and your wife's eye's. Cheers George
Yes actually there has been some precedence and it is rediculus. People are "asking" about $200,000 plus! I don't know what they have actually sold for. I am insulted at what they are asking for some and I am not in the market (I am building my 3rd RV, a RV-7). Those RV-10's I suspect are people who are speculating and built it no doubt to make a profit, which is not in the spirit of the amateur built experimental plane category. In some case you see an ad about a RV-10 under construction, "still time to pick colors". These folks never the less want crazy money for a RV-10. I think they are crazy, but hey if I built a -10 and needed to unexpectically sell it, I would want the most I could get for it. Why not. The market demands or allows these prices(?) These prices of course are well above the build cost and are not really the intent of building lit planes, to make money.mcsteatlh said:
Historically homebuilts sold for less than the cost it took the original builder to build it in most cases, however, the RV's have always had good resale and you could sell them for a little more than the build cost. A nice example can be sold for a little profit, but the prices have taken a jump. A $45,000 RV, 5-years ago is now a $60,000 RV. Also many RV's are now being built with new fuel injected engines, new constant speed props, fancy EFIS class cockpits and professional paint and interior. The early RV's where typically fitted with smaller carburated engines and fixed wood props with VFR instruments, so the price reflected this as well. I would say a typical new two seat RV is on the $80-$100K range. Bottom line, there are no bargains or steals in RV's. A new RV-10 is going to cost way more than $100,000 for sure. Now how people got the stones to ask $80,000 more than the build cost for a RV-10, an "amateur built plane", I don't know. It is a free country but it is crazy money, sepecially when there are so many great 4 place planes well under that. Obviously building is the way to go if you want a RV-10 in my opinion. It not hard and the kits are so good and the advent of QB kits makes build time an all time low. I did not emphasize this but BUILDING IS FUN, challenging and you will learn new skills. There is nothing like flying a plane you built.
Now the good news is if you do build a RV you can expect to make money if you ever sell it. Now I laugh about that. I sold my RV-4 for a "profit" many years ago, but when I included my labor, I made about $3.00 an hour, when I figure the 2000 hour it took to build. I sold it a little before the bubble and RV-4's tend to go for a little less than other comparable models, which makes them the bargain of the RV's. Still a nice RV-4 is $60,000 or more.
As far a Alex and kevinh they are just jealous. I am sure your two kids are the apple of your and your wife's eye's.
Cheers George
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Brad Gould
Member
gmcjetpilot said:
I used to own a 1985 M20J for several years. With a freshly broken in engine, and well rigged, I could count on about 162-163 KTAS at optimal conditions. This is on the high side of what other Mooney owners I know get. Earlier vintage M20Js tend to cruise in teh high 150s, in my experience. Yes, the book says 170 for cruise, but that's very doubtful in the real world.
Still, low 160s is great considering all the 201's attributes.
Mooney Interior
and the cabin seemed a little too much like a coffin. This may be a biased assessment coming out of a 182, but my wife (non-pilot) said she'd rather fly commercially. I will be a first time builder and have decided on the 10. Setting up shop!
IMHO,
Mark
One thing to consider is the cabin of the Mooney. After flying a C182 for a few years, I had all but decided on a new Mooney until I took a test flight. The single door and VERY cramped cabin was a deal killer for me. I am 6', but not overly largemcsteatlh said:
and the cabin seemed a little too much like a coffin. This may be a biased assessment coming out of a 182, but my wife (non-pilot) said she'd rather fly commercially. I will be a first time builder and have decided on the 10. Setting up shop!IMHO,
Mark
Mooney vs. 10
full disclosure:
I am building an RV10
I have instructed in Mooneys (various models), Trinidads, Bonanzas, Cessnas, Pipers, and yes Cirrus and Lancairs (experimental) and Columbias (certified Lancair). I also provide transition training for many RV owners.
I have owned a C182, built an RV6A (300 hrs flying)
I am biased against airplanes with single door ( even though as a CFI I sit on the right side -exit side) and Mooneys with their cramp quarters are at the bottom of my list - I am only 5' 9" 152 lbs
I am surprised that people still buy NEW Mooneys or Pipers with the competition from Cirrus and Columbia (Cessnas and Bonanzas are different breeds with different missions)
having tasted the RVs I would cringe at crawling into a Mooney 201J
but that's my own opinion... please take it for what's it worth... my circumstances may be differrent from yours
full disclosure:
I am building an RV10
I have instructed in Mooneys (various models), Trinidads, Bonanzas, Cessnas, Pipers, and yes Cirrus and Lancairs (experimental) and Columbias (certified Lancair). I also provide transition training for many RV owners.
I have owned a C182, built an RV6A (300 hrs flying)
I am biased against airplanes with single door ( even though as a CFI I sit on the right side -exit side) and Mooneys with their cramp quarters are at the bottom of my list - I am only 5' 9" 152 lbs
I am surprised that people still buy NEW Mooneys or Pipers with the competition from Cirrus and Columbia (Cessnas and Bonanzas are different breeds with different missions)
having tasted the RVs I would cringe at crawling into a Mooney 201J
but that's my own opinion... please take it for what's it worth... my circumstances may be differrent from yours
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Just prespective
I think you can get some amazing 4 place aircraft for $120,000.
Here is a turbo-ed M20J with a very nice panel:
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?OHID=1097526
A 1978 for $92.5
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?OHID=1100021
I just google'ed Mooney M20J for sale and got all kind of hits.
There are $200k Mooney's but they look like this:
http://www.premieraircraftsales.com/live/image.php?iid=696
Another list.
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/search.jsp?iaso3sid=1&searchid=8098702&typeid=1&mmgid=45&modelgroup=false
That is why I can't see people paying $220K plus for a RV-10 homebuilt, unpainted and unremarkable panel, as I have seen.
I think older Bonanzas and Comanche's make for fast planes under $100k.
Personally I don't want to need a 4 place. My feeling is if I ever need a 4 place or 6 place I'll rent it. I like doing loops and rolls too much. However If I had the money to have several planes, I would certainly like to have a fast 4-6 place plane to go with the acro sport plane, and add an amphib, bush plane and small jet. Ahaaaaa Dreams.
(Please you RV-10'ers please don't take it as a slight on that model, it is just I don't fly with 4 people and my "mission" is sport flying not people hauling, not that there's anything wrong with that mission either of course. The RV-10 would be my choice if it was.)
To echo what a previous post said, If I had to have and pay for the ownership of a capable (factory) true 4-place, the C-182 would be near the top of the list. Fixed gear, good payload. The retracts are great but add cost in both maintenance and insurance. Down and welded will never let you down and the rough field capability is greater. (Mooney's are one of the worst soft field planes due to low prop to ground clearance and nose gear design. Great for flat hard surfaces, but the school I taught at as a CFI, we had several Mooney prop strikes in a few years. Fortunately none involved me or former students of mine. George
I think you can get some amazing 4 place aircraft for $120,000.
Here is a turbo-ed M20J with a very nice panel:
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?OHID=1097526
A 1978 for $92.5
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?OHID=1100021
I just google'ed Mooney M20J for sale and got all kind of hits.
There are $200k Mooney's but they look like this:
http://www.premieraircraftsales.com/live/image.php?iid=696
Another list.
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/search.jsp?iaso3sid=1&searchid=8098702&typeid=1&mmgid=45&modelgroup=false
That is why I can't see people paying $220K plus for a RV-10 homebuilt, unpainted and unremarkable panel, as I have seen.
I think older Bonanzas and Comanche's make for fast planes under $100k.
Personally I don't want to need a 4 place. My feeling is if I ever need a 4 place or 6 place I'll rent it. I like doing loops and rolls too much. However If I had the money to have several planes, I would certainly like to have a fast 4-6 place plane to go with the acro sport plane, and add an amphib, bush plane and small jet. Ahaaaaa Dreams.
(Please you RV-10'ers please don't take it as a slight on that model, it is just I don't fly with 4 people and my "mission" is sport flying not people hauling, not that there's anything wrong with that mission either of course. The RV-10 would be my choice if it was.)
To echo what a previous post said, If I had to have and pay for the ownership of a capable (factory) true 4-place, the C-182 would be near the top of the list. Fixed gear, good payload. The retracts are great but add cost in both maintenance and insurance. Down and welded will never let you down and the rough field capability is greater. (Mooney's are one of the worst soft field planes due to low prop to ground clearance and nose gear design. Great for flat hard surfaces, but the school I taught at as a CFI, we had several Mooney prop strikes in a few years. Fortunately none involved me or former students of mine. George
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Thanks everybody.
Thanks to all for the great posts. I'm going to Kerrville, Tx this weekend and look over the 'J' model. I'm waiting for April for Sun n Fun to look at the 10's. I don't think there is a 10 in Houston, at least to my knowledge. Maybe I need to sit in an 182.
Sincerely
McStealth
PS ALEX,
he he he
We grow them big here in TX
Thanks to all for the great posts. I'm going to Kerrville, Tx this weekend and look over the 'J' model. I'm waiting for April for Sun n Fun to look at the 10's. I don't think there is a 10 in Houston, at least to my knowledge. Maybe I need to sit in an 182.
Sincerely
McStealth
PS ALEX,
he he he
We grow them big here in TX
dan
Well Known Member
Build it
I used to own an M20F and an M20J. Loved them until I knew better. Ask Mooney drivers what their annuals cost and if they're totally happy with the quality of service they receive from their A&Ps. I suspect the average will be less than perfect.
My first annual on my RV-7 cost about $105. This year will be a real whopper at about $400 (adding and replacing a few things). My last few annuals on the Mooneys cost anywhere between $2500 and $4500. A $10,000 annual on a Mooney is not unheard of. Corrosion of the steel cage, corrosion of pushrods and rod ends, landing gear issues (i.e. nosegear oversteered by FBO ground personnel, etc.), and of COURSE weeping fuel tanks which seems to plague rougly 1 in 2 Mooneys at any given time. Resealing the tanks is not cheap.
So cut to building...
Building your RV-10 (or whatever) will, simply put, change your life. After all of the blood, sweat, and tears, you exit the tunnel with an airplane you built with your own two hands -- and airplane that you are now completely authorized to maintain in its entirety. The FAA hands you that Repairman Certificate for your airplane, and you are now utterly free of the monkeys that turn wrenches and charge you a fortune for less-than-perfect work. Quality is in your control. You can take your sweet time doing maintenance. You can do it on your schedule. You set the bar.
Not to mention that you have the ability to use the absolute most modern equipment -- powerplant options, propellers, and of course that fantastic panel full of glass or what have you, which won't be an option in your Mooney.
Cutting-edge technology, freedom from shoddy quality, all at about the same price. The real cost? A few years of your life. But during those years you will learn more about airplanes than you ever imagined possible. Your life truly will be changed.
Do you want to just fly around in something you don't know and have to pay to have maintained potentially imperfectly? Or do you want to fly around in something that is undoubtedly safe, ridiculously modern, customized to your every whim, and your pride and joy that you built with your own two hands?
I did enjoy flying the M20J since I knew no better at the time. I will never own a certificated airplane again.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (812 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
I used to own an M20F and an M20J. Loved them until I knew better. Ask Mooney drivers what their annuals cost and if they're totally happy with the quality of service they receive from their A&Ps. I suspect the average will be less than perfect.
My first annual on my RV-7 cost about $105. This year will be a real whopper at about $400 (adding and replacing a few things). My last few annuals on the Mooneys cost anywhere between $2500 and $4500. A $10,000 annual on a Mooney is not unheard of. Corrosion of the steel cage, corrosion of pushrods and rod ends, landing gear issues (i.e. nosegear oversteered by FBO ground personnel, etc.), and of COURSE weeping fuel tanks which seems to plague rougly 1 in 2 Mooneys at any given time. Resealing the tanks is not cheap.
So cut to building...
Building your RV-10 (or whatever) will, simply put, change your life. After all of the blood, sweat, and tears, you exit the tunnel with an airplane you built with your own two hands -- and airplane that you are now completely authorized to maintain in its entirety. The FAA hands you that Repairman Certificate for your airplane, and you are now utterly free of the monkeys that turn wrenches and charge you a fortune for less-than-perfect work. Quality is in your control. You can take your sweet time doing maintenance. You can do it on your schedule. You set the bar.
Not to mention that you have the ability to use the absolute most modern equipment -- powerplant options, propellers, and of course that fantastic panel full of glass or what have you, which won't be an option in your Mooney.
Cutting-edge technology, freedom from shoddy quality, all at about the same price. The real cost? A few years of your life. But during those years you will learn more about airplanes than you ever imagined possible. Your life truly will be changed.
Do you want to just fly around in something you don't know and have to pay to have maintained potentially imperfectly? Or do you want to fly around in something that is undoubtedly safe, ridiculously modern, customized to your every whim, and your pride and joy that you built with your own two hands?
I did enjoy flying the M20J since I knew no better at the time. I will never own a certificated airplane again.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (812 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
Preach it, Dan!
IMO, this post you wrote should go in the "Best of the Best" file. ***EDIT - Seems that Doug beat me to the punch; there's a link to the post on the VAF.net home page***
Funny I should see this tonight - my wife and I were briefly discussing "built vs. bought" earlier tonight (a QuickBuild vs. standard-build discussion), and what I told her is basically what you said in your last couple paragraphs - I want the pride and satisfaction of flying an airplane I built myself, behind an engine I assembled, and advised by a panel I spec'd and arranged to my requirements and preferences. I want to be challenged by things like fuel tank assembly and sealing, trailing-edge riveting, and trying to get good solids in where others resort to pop-rivets.
Although, I'm personally not too happy about this part:
C'mon, not all of us wrench-turning monkeys do crappy work for cubic dollars. I'll freely admit that there's plenty of s**tbirds out there in the industry (mechs, IA's, and repair stations) who deserve to have their certificates permanently revoked (like the asshat that did the "work" on your Mooney that I saw on your site - I'd like to break that guy's hands...), but most of us stay in this industry for love, not money. Auto mechanics (wait, sorry... automotive service technicians ) make more than A&P's in a lot of areas around the country, and work in better conditions a lot of the time.
IMO, this post you wrote should go in the "Best of the Best" file. ***EDIT - Seems that Doug beat me to the punch; there's a link to the post on the VAF.net home page***
Funny I should see this tonight - my wife and I were briefly discussing "built vs. bought" earlier tonight (a QuickBuild vs. standard-build discussion), and what I told her is basically what you said in your last couple paragraphs - I want the pride and satisfaction of flying an airplane I built myself, behind an engine I assembled, and advised by a panel I spec'd and arranged to my requirements and preferences. I want to be challenged by things like fuel tank assembly and sealing, trailing-edge riveting, and trying to get good solids in where others resort to pop-rivets.
Although, I'm personally not too happy about this part:
dan said:
C'mon, not all of us wrench-turning monkeys do crappy work for cubic dollars. I'll freely admit that there's plenty of s**tbirds out there in the industry (mechs, IA's, and repair stations) who deserve to have their certificates permanently revoked (like the asshat that did the "work" on your Mooney that I saw on your site - I'd like to break that guy's hands...), but most of us stay in this industry for love, not money. Auto mechanics (wait, sorry... automotive service technicians
) make more than A&P's in a lot of areas around the country, and work in better conditions a lot of the time.
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Let's face it guys. We are definitely in this for the pure love and passion for not only flying, but also the incredible satisfaction of working with your hands and seeing the fruits of your labor. We are not unlike woodworkers in this regard, and in fact a lot of airplane builders are also woodworkers to some degree.
True enough, the RV is an airplane with good resale value (read..profit margin), but is NOT the driving force for my passion, and I do emphasize the word 'passion'.
I have been involved with general and commercial aviation for many years now, and have always been enthusiastic about WHATEVER airplane I found myself involved in. EVERY AIRPLANE has it's positive attributes no matter how remote they may seem. I've owned several certificated birds and even part of an older homebuilt, and have always strived to do as much of the maintenence as legally allowed, including owner assist annuals. It has generally worked out OK on cost of ownership, except for this year. Mind you, I am building an -8 slowbuild because I too want to experience every inch of the process. I don't want to miss out on any educational opportunity involved in this process. I sold my 45 year old cherry C172 this year due to financial reasons ( 45% cut in pay, pensions disappearing, increase in medical insurance, you know..the usual). This year, my Cessna girl cost me a $3000 annual! OUCH!!! It was just one of the years when certain major systems needed replacement.
That convinced me that building my airplane was the sensible and most cost effective way for me to stay in this hobby! So now I have nothing to fly except for a bud's Stearman that is 3 states away.
The homebuilt movement has come a long way since it's earliest beginnings. As was mentioned in an earlier post, you can have state of the art avionics and powerplants that simply are not available to the certified aircraft market, or are prohibitively expensive in those airplanes.
I look forward to the day when I roll my homegrown dream out on to the tarmac, and take her upstairs, but until then I will continue to relish in the passion of being in my "men's room", building my airplane , one piece at a time!
Blue skies and perfect rivets!
Jeff
True enough, the RV is an airplane with good resale value (read..profit margin), but is NOT the driving force for my passion, and I do emphasize the word 'passion'.
I have been involved with general and commercial aviation for many years now, and have always been enthusiastic about WHATEVER airplane I found myself involved in. EVERY AIRPLANE has it's positive attributes no matter how remote they may seem. I've owned several certificated birds and even part of an older homebuilt, and have always strived to do as much of the maintenence as legally allowed, including owner assist annuals. It has generally worked out OK on cost of ownership, except for this year. Mind you, I am building an -8 slowbuild because I too want to experience every inch of the process. I don't want to miss out on any educational opportunity involved in this process. I sold my 45 year old cherry C172 this year due to financial reasons ( 45% cut in pay, pensions disappearing, increase in medical insurance, you know..the usual). This year, my Cessna girl cost me a $3000 annual! OUCH!!! It was just one of the years when certain major systems needed replacement.
That convinced me that building my airplane was the sensible and most cost effective way for me to stay in this hobby! So now I have nothing to fly except for a bud's Stearman that is 3 states away.
The homebuilt movement has come a long way since it's earliest beginnings. As was mentioned in an earlier post, you can have state of the art avionics and powerplants that simply are not available to the certified aircraft market, or are prohibitively expensive in those airplanes.
I look forward to the day when I roll my homegrown dream out on to the tarmac, and take her upstairs, but until then I will continue to relish in the passion of being in my "men's room", building my airplane , one piece at a time!
Blue skies and perfect rivets!
Jeff
w1curtis
Well Known Member
Here, Here! Dandan said:
I must say that the thing that put me over the edge and started building was a VERY frustrating experience with a repair station that was doing insurance work/paint/annual on my Cardinal. This outfit seemed to have come up with a new way to print money and aircraft owners was an integral part of that formula. I finally got my plane from them on a ferry permit and went elswhere.
While I love my Cardinal and fully intend to keep it when my -10 is complete, I too will also never buy a certificated airplane again.
The unfortunate thing is that yours and my experiences are more the norm rather than the exception and this is causing pilots who do not have the patience or the resolve to build, to just give up GA altogether. This hurts us all.
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wirejock
Well Known Member
Homebuid
I was on the fence. Now there is no question.
After years of building all sorts of projects, I never been more excited about starting an this project. I hope to start a -10 in December. First I have to finish my pilot certificate and re-side the house (promised the wife). I've completely dismantled a VW bug and restorred it. I tiled our house. I built all the furniture in one house and started on the vacation home. I built at least a dozen RC airplanes. I look back and remember every moment of the process, the anguish and pain (RC planes crash), the hospital visits (2 for stitches and went right back to work as soon as I got home), the pride felt on completion and the excitement of planning the next one. I wouldn't have changed a thing. My children comment on the values my projects taught them. Now they have numerous heirlooms to fight over when I'm gone. This will be another. RV-10 here I come!
I was on the fence. Now there is no question.
After years of building all sorts of projects, I never been more excited about starting an this project. I hope to start a -10 in December. First I have to finish my pilot certificate and re-side the house (promised the wife). I've completely dismantled a VW bug and restorred it. I tiled our house. I built all the furniture in one house and started on the vacation home. I built at least a dozen RC airplanes. I look back and remember every moment of the process, the anguish and pain (RC planes crash), the hospital visits (2 for stitches and went right back to work as soon as I got home), the pride felt on completion and the excitement of planning the next one. I wouldn't have changed a thing. My children comment on the values my projects taught them. Now they have numerous heirlooms to fight over when I'm gone. This will be another. RV-10 here I come!
RV10 and certificated airplanes
guys
try fly a Cirrus SR22 or a Lancair Comlumbia before you write off certificated airplanes...admittedly these cost $$$$$$ but they are nicer/faster/better equipped/better constructed than 98% of the experimentals I've been privileged to.
Son
RV10 -still working on canopy top
guys
try fly a Cirrus SR22 or a Lancair Comlumbia before you write off certificated airplanes...admittedly these cost $$$$$$ but they are nicer/faster/better equipped/better constructed than 98% of the experimentals I've been privileged to.
Son
RV10 -still working on canopy top
Highflight
Well Known Member
jdmunzell said:
Yada yada yada...
During my previous profession of auto body repair and restoration, I got to enjoy the "satisfaction" of full, body off restorations of different types of cars, painted until my arm was so cramped that I couldn't hold the spray gun up anymore, and once, took a Porsche 930 Turbo that had been literally wrapped around a tree and made it right again. I did my share of "scratch" building and got it out of my system.
While I definitely understand those who have to have the full monty of pride in building from a standard kit, let's give some credit to those who start with the QB kits for whatever their reasons.
It's bad enough we have primer wars, tailwheel vs nosewheel wars, and tipup vs slider wars and all the rest of the carnage
If I hear one more standard kit vs QB kit war, I swear I'm gonna' quit and just go out and buy a flying Volksplane.
First time on the thread. I am building an RV10. I recieved the QB last week. Can anybody recommend a cleaner to remove the 'oily' material from the wings and fuse. Also I have waited to finish riveting the elevators as I haven't made a bucking bar for it. Can anyone recommend a place to get a bucking bar to close the elevator. Or maybe someone would lend or sell me one?
Thanks for your help.
Redlands CA
[email protected]
Thanks for your help.
Redlands CA
[email protected]
RV-10 Bucking Bar
Cleaveland or Avery have the special RV-10 bucking bar.
Try Coleman white gas (naptha) to remove the oil. You may want to leave it on until just before paint to keep help resist any corrosion.
Larry
http://lrosen.nerv10.com
Cleaveland or Avery have the special RV-10 bucking bar.
Try Coleman white gas (naptha) to remove the oil. You may want to leave it on until just before paint to keep help resist any corrosion.
Larry
http://lrosen.nerv10.com
war??....what war??
Vern,
I don't recall there being a war between slo-builds vs. QBs. I was simply stating my passion for acquiring further knowledge in reference to building an airplane. This is my first airplane build project, and as such want to experience all the processes involved. My next project after this will probably be some sort of tube and fabric restoration, or if I decide to stick with Vans, DEFINITELY a quick build. Because then the knowledge itch will have been scratched, and speed until completion will be a more likely goal. And just so you know, I know that this -8 is definitely not a scratch built airplane. These kits now come pre-punched and it's a lot like assembling a plastic model airplane!
Jeff
-8 wings
Vern,
I don't recall there being a war between slo-builds vs. QBs. I was simply stating my passion for acquiring further knowledge in reference to building an airplane. This is my first airplane build project, and as such want to experience all the processes involved. My next project after this will probably be some sort of tube and fabric restoration, or if I decide to stick with Vans, DEFINITELY a quick build. Because then the knowledge itch will have been scratched, and speed until completion will be a more likely goal. And just so you know, I know that this -8 is definitely not a scratch built airplane. These kits now come pre-punched and it's a lot like assembling a plastic model airplane!
Jeff
-8 wings
