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Before Riveting the VS Skin Questions

J

jchang10

Well Known Member
Well, it looks like I have no other choice but using the rivet gun now. For some reason, my couple of practice sessions using the gun proved highly demotivating.

However, I am hoping to get some advice before taking the plunge.

1. Following the plans, i start by riveting the middle nose rib on both sides of the skin. This means then I have to use the bucking bar method, correct?

2. Do most people rivet with the kit laying on its side skin? or standing up with the leading edge straight up?

3. Finally, I noticed in the Orndorff video for a -7 that he installs rubber washers into holes and feeds lines from top to bottom, i am assuming to make wiring easier in the future.

Is planning for wiring like this recommended on the -10 at all? It does seem like a valid point, after all, when years down the road i want a collision beacon light on the tail tip?

Thanks again for the tips,
Jae
 
Just Do it!

Jae,

I think you are worrying too much. Just Do it!

Yes you do have to use the bucking bar and yes, you will make mistakes but you will also learn and the VS parts are not that expensive to replace from Vans. Or you may luck out like me and only have a few smiley faces and won't have to replace any parts.

I did not even do the practice kit. My only riveting experience prior was a riveting seminar at OSH. And while I still have an occasional smiley when I get tired or or not paying attention, its gotten a LOT better.

Just look at my VS page: http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/01VStab/index.html
 
Last edited:
1) Correct, its time to learn to buck rivets.

2) I set my VS up vertically, and clamped the bottom rib tightly to the workbench to do the skin riveting. I'm building an RV-9 so it similar though a bit smaller.

3) If you want lighting in the VS its easier to put in some holes/grommets now, but most people don't have anything in the VS. Note that any strobe/beacon in the VS is going to flash annoyingly into the cockpit.

Finally, I'd recommend some more practice before you start on real parts if you've been having trouble. Also, if you can describe the problems that you had with the practice riveting, you certainly get some replys with some suggestions. For now, maybe Dan's riveting how-to can help: http://www.rvproject.com/rivets.html
 
Thanks again

Thanks again guys! You've given me good thoughts to think about.

William, your website blows me away! However, the link you gave did not work. I had to use the one in your signature which was http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/. I will be checking your site often!

Ben, how would the beacon light on the VS get into the cockpit? Not directly right? Are you saying the light would reflect off of the wing surfaces? However, where else, would you put the beacon light then?

John, thanks for the pointer. I was wondering about resting the skin right on the clecos, but will take your word to avoid it.

I can't say enough how much I appreciate the website builder logs, complete with photos, instant replay of mistakes, and tips. I know how much work goes into keeping the sites up to date, and all I can say is that it is being appreciated by someone out there!

Jae
 
keen9a said:
1) 3) If you want lighting in the VS its easier to put in some holes/grommets now, but most people don't have anything in the VS. Note that any strobe/beacon in the VS is going to flash annoyingly into the cockpit...
Click to expand...
Good point for the "other" RVs with their greenhouse canopies, however this does not apply to the RV-10. Still, not many (if any?) folks are putting beacons on RVs of any type including the -10 since the beacon is primarily for ground ops and strobes are a much better anti-collision solution.
 
Caution!!!

If you are going to paint your wings a light color like most people, a vertical stabilizer mounted strobe will reflect very annoyingly from the wings. Keep the tail strobe on the trailing edge of the rudder.
Mel...DAR
 
Not sure if the 10 is the same, buy my 9 VS fit almost perfectly into the cradles used for the HS. Thus, I just used the cradles, fwd edge of VS down, to hold it while riveting. Worked great. Good luck.

Those first bucked rivets are a little nerve wracking but if you use a swivel flush set it's pretty hard to get smilies. I'm up to the fuselage and only have one smiley on the plane from flush riveting--I credit the swivel set more than my skill!

Have fun.
 
w1curtis said:
Good point for the "other" RVs with their greenhouse canopies, however this does not apply to the RV-10. Still, not many (if any?) folks are putting beacons on RVs of any type including the -10 since the beacon is primarily for ground ops and strobes are a much better anti-collision solution.
Click to expand...

It can still be an issue as it will flash on the back of the prop disk. Many certificated aircraft with V stab mounted beacons have a shadow strip down the front of the lens to prevent this.

Most RV builders use a system with stobes on the wingtips and at the base of the rudder. This is much more effective/visable and lower in aerodynamic drag though it is more expensive.

Scott M.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
It can still be an issue as it will flash on the back of the prop disk. Many certificated aircraft with V stab mounted beacons have a shadow strip down the front of the lens to prevent this.

Most RV builders use a system with stobes on the wingtips and at the base of the rudder. This is much more effective/visable and lower in aerodynamic drag though it is more expensive.

Scott M.
Click to expand...
You guys are kicking a dead horse. Lets not start inventing perceived problems. First, I think we were talking about a red flashing beacon, not a strobe. Second, I do not suggest the addition of a flashing beacon (or strobe) on top of the VS, but if someone wanted to put flashing beacon on an top of the RV-10 VS for whatever reason-drag issues aside, it will NOT be a problem.

I fly a certified plane with a rear window, no shadow strip and a flashing beacon on the forward top VS and have never had the problem you have suggested. And even though it is a high wing, I can attest from changing the bulb, that there is a direct line of sight to the prop. Isn't that the primary reason the backs of props are painted black?

The RV-10 has no rear window. Have you actually seen such a problem or is this one of the many perceived problems of us amateur builders that could fill an episodes of Myth Busters?
 
OK; Experience! I owned a low wing airplane with a red beacon on the vertical stab. I replaced the beacon with a white (clear) strobe. The reflection off the top of the wings was unbearable. I had to change the lens to red. It was still irritating but bearable. No problem with the prop as the flat black does not reflect. (That's why it's FLAT black).
Just my $.02.
Mel...DAR
 
V.S. wiring options...

One reason to keep the wiring option open - someday you might want a bullet (lipstick?) camera mounted in the top of the V.S.
 
beacon/strobe on VS

I'm building an 8, but plan to put a low profile strobe (red) on top of the VS if possible. I prefer to use just a red beacon/strobe (and nav lights of course) for ground ops at night. The red strobe or beacon is enought to make you visible without trashing everyone's night vision once they've become adapted
to the dark. Notice how most a/c don't turn on the white strobes until they are ready for departure, unless thats all they have. Just my .02
 
w1curtis said:
You guys are kicking a dead horse. Lets not start inventing perceived problems. First, I think we were talking about a red flashing beacon, not a strobe. Second, I do not suggest the addition of a flashing beacon (or strobe) on top of the VS, but if someone wanted to put flashing beacon on an top of the RV-10 VS for whatever reason-drag issues aside, it will NOT be a problem.

I fly a certified plane with a rear window, no shadow strip and a flashing beacon on the forward top VS and have never had the problem you have suggested. And even though it is a high wing, I can attest from changing the bulb, that there is a direct line of sight to the prop. Isn't that the primary reason the backs of props are painted black?

The RV-10 has no rear window. Have you actually seen such a problem or is this one of the many perceived problems of us amateur builders that could fill an episodes of Myth Busters?
Click to expand...

Do some of you guys wear gloves at all times just waiting for an opportunity?
Yes I have seen it personally.
I didn't say it was an FAR requirement... I didn't say all aircraft are this way... I said many are, even some low wings with no back windows have the shadow strip. Working as an A&P I have worked on many aircraft over the years that had strips. Many Pipers had a narrow metal strip on the front of the beacon as delivered from the factory. Not all beacons are the same. Some flash, some rotate to make them apear to flash, some are bigger, some are smaller, all are more drag (insignificant to you maybe, that same thinking is why some RV builders slam the quoted performance #'s). One of the drag cleanups done on the late model Grumman Tiger was to do away with the beacon sticking out of the top of the vertical stab.

I also am well aware of the reason that props are typicaly painted flat black on the aft surface. That doesn't mean they reflect zero light. It is still visable on the aft side of the prop. Depending on the brightness of the beacon used it may not be enough to bother a lot of pilots but why take a chance.
The only reason to put a beacon on top of the vertical is to meet the FAR requirement with only one light.
Bottom line is that a beacon on the top of the vertical stab (reguardless of the type) simply meets the letter of the requirement for an anti collision light, but it does a pretty poor job of making you visable. If your only intent is to meet the requirement of the FAR, it is a simple and cheap way to go.

Me... I choose to use strobes all around
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Do some of you guys wear gloves at all times just waiting for an opportunity?
Click to expand...
Hmm, if pointing out an incorrect statement or stating why a "perceived problem", does not apply is "wearing the gloves", then... DING! DING!
rvbuilder2002 said:
The only reason to put a beacon on top of the vertical is to meet the FAR requirement with only one light.
Bottom line is that a beacon on the top of the vertical stab (reguardless of the type) simply meets the letter of the requirement for an anti collision light, but it does a pretty poor job of making you visable. If your only intent is to meet the requirement of the FAR, it is a simple and cheap way to go.
Click to expand...
OK, so now you are saying it is OK? In your previous post which I pointed, out you stated that it was a problem? This is the verbiage which I had the problem with:
rvbuilder2002 said:
It can still be an issue as it will flash on the back of the prop disk. Many certificated aircraft with V stab mounted beacons have a shadow strip down the front of the lens to prevent this.
Click to expand...
What was the original question again? Oh yeah...
jchang10 said:
Is planning for wiring like this recommended on the -10 at all? It does seem like a valid point, after all, when years down the road i want a collision beacon light on the tail tip?
Click to expand...
This I agree with and was all you needed to say..
rvbuilder2002 said:
Most RV builders use a system with stobes on the wingtips and at the base of the rudder. This is much more effective/visable and lower in aerodynamic drag though it is more expensive.
Click to expand...
 
w1curtis said:
OK, so now you are saying it is OK? In your previous post which I pointed, out you stated that it was a problem? [/B]
Click to expand...

I never said it wasn't OK or that it was a proplem. Your words...
I mentioned it as something to consider.

w1curtis said:
This I agree with and was all you needed to say..
Click to expand...

It wasn't all I needed to say just because you decided so.
Even though I didn't go into great detail, maybe, just maybe there are other reasons that probably 99% of RVbuilders do not use a beacon on the vertical tail even though the alternative costs a lot more.
 
What worked for us

Jae,
We set the leading edge of the VS in two cradles so the trailing edge is upright. It was easier to reach down with the bucking bar than to hold it against gravity if the VS was on its side. Since the VS was on a bench the bucker had to stand on a stool. Get an airflow regulator (really a small ball valve with a knurled knob) to adjust the rivet gun. Place the gun on a piece of wood and run it while playing with the air control till you find the appropiate force for the job at hand. You could try some rivets on a practice piece to get a feel for it at the different air settings before working on the real thing. Because the rivets can be hard to see inside the VS you can press the tip of your against the driven rivet for a couple of seconds and the impression will remain so you can check the dimple on your finger against a gauge to see if you have driven it enough or too much. Pay special attention to the alignment of the rivet set so that it is flat on the rivet head and not tipped any which will ding the skin. Hope you find this useful.

Kevin
 
Thanks for the Tips

I finally put rivet gun to Al. Results were both good and bad. I had initially fretted over the middle nose rib, but that turned out to be much easier than the front spar flanges.

I did not have a cradle, so had the leading edge sticking up. I ended up riveting with my arms in the air while sitting on the floor. I did 12 along the front spar this way fine, but the 3rd rivet from the top, I ended up dinging the front spar flange quite badly. The bucking bar must not have been sitting flat, so the corner edge of it dented the flange into the skin about 1/8". There is a slight bump outward on the skin.

I don't have pictures yet, but will manage them soon. Just curious what people thought about my booboo? Serious enough to try to fix somehow? i think it's nearly unfixable without replacing the entire front spar. The crease is sharp enough that nothing will get it straight again.

At this point, I just want to forget about it and try my best not to do it again!

Jae
 
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