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Paint is going to be the end of me

N208ET

Well Known Member
I am in the middle of a painters worst nightmare. A little background. I tried spraying the fuselage myself, and that turned out pretty bad. I tried to fix it, and that turned out bad as well. I took it to a paint shop, followed their instructions, they shot it with basecoat again, and all the flaws are coming back up. So the only thing to do is strip all the paint off and start again. My Bad. You live you learn, I think I have taken the whole experience in stride pretty well. But, I helped the painter prep the wings, VS, and HS. Those got shot a couple days ago, by the painter, in a paint booth, and he is a pretty good painter. The next day we pick up the parts from the paint booth and right off the bat, there was more orange peel than I would have liked but nothing a little elbow grease can't fix up, till we took the parts outside. Severe tiger strips, and the clearcoat doesn't even flow out over the basecoat where it was put on too light. I am not really looking for painting advice per say, but I must ask the question.

Has anybody else gone through this kind of painting HELL? I have countless hours into this paint and I feel as if I am getting further and further away from flying with every spraying. Has anyone had to get out the stripper and strip their fuselage. I am not looking forward to stripping the fuselage as I am afriad the stripper is going to get inside the fuse and cause me further grief.

Randy
 
Pro aircraft painting

I'm really sorry! I'm ready for paint in 4 wks, but for for the very reasons you bring up here, I've already made arrangements to have a pro aircraft painter f
do my -9A. So many years of hard work in building the machine, I don't want it looking like it was painted with a rattle can, as it would if I did it!!

John Stahr (www.stahrdesign.com) in Eugene is doing mine. I'm going to spend a week at his shop doing the prep work under his direction then he'll finish it out. Working that way, the cost is very reasonable and I know the end product will be first class. Check out his website... his work is stunning!
 
I've had my share of troubles with paint, but over the years have become reasonably good at it. Orange peel can be a problem with modern paints but a good painter can keep it under control. However, striping and not getting the clear to flow are not the kind of things I'd expect from a good painter. Are you sure your guy has the necessary skills?
 
I am in the middle of a painters worst nightmare. A little background. I tried spraying the fuselage myself, and that turned out pretty bad. I tried to fix it, and that turned out bad as well. I took it to a paint shop, followed their instructions, they shot it with basecoat again, and all the flaws are coming back up. So the only thing to do is strip all the paint off and start again. My Bad. You live you learn, I think I have taken the whole experience in stride pretty well. But, I helped the painter prep the wings, VS, and HS. Those got shot a couple days ago, by the painter, in a paint booth, and he is a pretty good painter. The next day we pick up the parts from the paint booth and right off the bat, there was more orange peel than I would have liked but nothing a little elbow grease can't fix up, till we took the parts outside. Severe tiger strips, and the clearcoat doesn't even flow out over the basecoat where it was put on too light. I am not really looking for painting advice per say, but I must ask the question.

Has anybody else gone through this kind of painting HELL? I have countless hours into this paint and I feel as if I am getting further and further away from flying with every spraying. Has anyone had to get out the stripper and strip their fuselage. I am not looking forward to stripping the fuselage as I am afriad the stripper is going to get inside the fuse and cause me further grief.

Randy

What paint system are you using? I used a DuPont system and they had a huge amount of online and live support to help figure out problems like these.
 
Thanks for the replys

It is PPG basecoat clearcoat, and I went with a metallic color. I have seen some of the painters work and its not bad, he should definately be able to pull this off. I wet sanded a bit of it yesterday and there is more orange peel then there should be. I am not looking for a showplane, just something I can walk away from with a little bit of pride. I guess when the paint is finally done its going to be a bittersweet moment.
 
Food for thought..

Hi Randy -

One of my hangar mates painted his RV-7A himself......came up pretty average ( I can speak for seeing it myself). He is a perfectionist and couldn't stomach the "mess" he had made of it. He stripped the aircraft completely and (other than it being a lot of work) he didn't have any isues with stripper getting inside the aircraft.

Since then he re-prepped the aircraft and got his brother (he is a panel beater with basic painting experience) to re-shoot the BMS-1079 primer followed by a PPG 2-pack topcoat. It has come up a lot better (so the effort was definitely worthwhile) however there has been some issues with orange peel and blemishes etc. Fortunately the PPG 2-pack topcoat can be polished and he has been working hard to polish it up to standard but its heaps better than his first attempt.

Having seen all this I decided that I wasn't going anywhere near my plane with a spray gun....too many things to go wrong and I didn't want to destroy 3 1/2 years hard work with a lousy paint job that I wasn't proud to say that I did myself! That said, I needed to do some work on some areas of minor surface corrosion etc and I also didn't trust a paint shop to do it properly unsupervised.

I decided to employ a spray painter who specialises in spraying racing helmets etc because he had the experience to paint my fairly ambitious scheme (three colours, metallic finishes and lots of chequers etc). I pay him on hourly rates to do the spraying only and I do the prepwork.

I am not trying to build a show plane by any stretch of the imagination but the difference in my paint job and my hangar mates (after two attempts) is significant and he would agree. I am only half way there (have finished all the flight surfaces now and currently working on fuse and wings).

What have I learnt....?

1. It has taken me MANY more hours than estimated to prep the aircraft properly.
2. It has cost me almost TWICE as much in paint/materials as I estimated
3. When finished the painter will have spent 1.5 times the hours I estimated

The net summary of that is that I will have achieved a fairly complex and very high quality paint job (BMS 1079 primer, PPG Deltron metallic basecoats, PPG Deltron 2-pack clear topcoat) for about the same cost as flying it into an aircraft paint shop and getting a simple one colour scheme in Aerospace paints. I have spent a LOT of my time on the prep however...probably 80 to 100 hours at a guess so far and upwards of 120 hours by the time its finished (did I mention how much I have have enjoyed the prepping process....NOT!)

If you are going to strip and repaint you will put a LOT of time into stripping back to a suitable starting point but DON'T cut corners or you will be inevitably be disappointed again. The resultant paint job will only be as good as the prep.

I would argue that you need to strip it completely and do it properly. When you do finally get the paint result that you are after it will be a great reward!

Good luck.

JON.
 
It is PPG basecoat clearcoat, and I went with a metallic color. I have seen some of the painters work and its not bad, he should definately be able to pull this off. I wet sanded a bit of it yesterday and there is more orange peel then there should be. I am not looking for a showplane, just something I can walk away from with a little bit of pride. I guess when the paint is finally done its going to be a bittersweet moment.

Randy -

Further to the dribble in my message above....

If the orange peel is not extensive and there are not too many imperfections that need to be de-nibbed you should be able to locally wet and dry (1200 grit) the areas until the imperfections are gone (back to the primer coat if necessary). Following that you can respray the basecoat followed by an thin intercoat clear. Follow that up with a light 1200 wet and dry to denib as required and then respray the topcoat clear (blended out around the local area). Following that cut and polish the clear topcoat if required.

If you are not happy with the topcoat you should be able to rub it all back (lightly) with say 1200 grit wet and dry and the re-apply the PPG two-pack top coat clear. This should provide enough build to cover the tiger stripes in the areas where the clear may bit a little bit on the thin side.....???

One thing my painter has re-inforced to me is having the right conditions for clear coating...base coat has to be freshly cleaned with prepsol and tack rags and the clear has to be applied at the right temperature. He applies a ghost coat of the clear, lets it go off (until it goes stringy if touched with a finger) and then applies a full flood coat to provide full depth (this is the tricky bit because it needs to have depth without being so deep as to cause runs.........all that said I am sure every painter has a different opinion....

Sounds like a lot less work than full strip...how bad is it.....?

Cheers

Jon
 
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I believe this thread points out one thing--painting, for a beginner, is a risky business. I really couldn't see myself sanding off (or stripping) $400/gal paint, so I hired a pro. I believe it was one of the best decisions I made in the building process. This guy wasn't an aircraft painter, but had years of experience on autos. He took the time to learn the prep necessary and did a great job using far less paint than I could have done. He gave me a better looking plane that was lighter than if I had used it as a learning experience.

Since I went with vinyl for the second and third color, hiring a pro didn't cost all that much, less than $2000 for the prep and one color--a small price when you look at the total cost of the airplane. It worked for me.

Sorry I can't be helpful in how to fix painting errors, but perhaps someone else can use this experience to save themselves this kind of headache and expense you experienced. IMHO, painting is and art. Only an artist should do it. Don't settle for a poor paint job on your beautiful aluminum masterpiece--you won't be happy with it for a LONG time. Good luck and do whatever it takes!

Bob Kelly
 
I feel your pain, man. Having had ZERO building experience, the educational part of the process has been huge. I've learned how to cut metal, rivet, wire, plumb, decipher Van's drawings ... but painting is NOT in the cards for me.

Being blissfully ignorant and optimistic many years ago, I determined that ONLY I could paint the plane the way I wanted. I bought an HVLP turbine setup at Oshkosh one year and practiced on an old Jeep. When it came time to paint the interior, I built a paint booth and proceeded to make a huge mess of it! I spent hours sanding and buffing out the imperfections.

Fast forward. Time for paint on the outside. After 13+ years of building, I'm not about to screw it up so that everybody can see just how crappy a painter I am. Face it -- the two things people see first when they come up to your plane are the paint and the panel (except newbies at Oshkosh -- they go immediately to the elevator trim tab :D ).

A month from now, weather permitting, I'll be letting a pro do the job. I'm saving my money in the knowledge that NO amount of savings would make up for a bad paint job.

Good luck. You are not alone ...
 
Painting 101 - practice & plan

There are many, many posts on this site about painting. Suffice to say, it is not impossible, it is not even difficult, you can save $6k easily by doing it yourself, and avoid the nightmares others have had with less than ethical shops. The key to success is environment, study, and practice.

ENVIRONMENT is the easiest task to accomplish because there are rote steps to setting up your booth that are well documented. Almost any two car garage can be made into the right environment. Environment is not only important to the end result, but it's also important not to send waste into the atmosphere or breathe harmful chemicals. Yes, seasonal differences may dictate when the final work is done.

STUDY is no different than what you did before you wired your panel or cut the cowl. You read a lot & learned from others before you started.

PRACTICE: If you accept yourself as a novice and approach the project logically and methodically, gathering experience as you go with primer and sacrificial panels (or older cars), there is no reason you cannot get decent results. You didn't practice cross wind landings on day one of training, why not give yourself a break and approach this task methodically and slowly too.

I did my airplane in my garage. Yes, I've been painting cars on and off for 30 years but if an old hobbyist like me can do it, paint does not have to be the end of you. Just sneak up on it slowly and learn from sacrificial panels. IE, intentionally create a run or a sag on a sacrificial piece of alum and learn how to deal with it.

The first photo shows the rotisserie we welded together for each sub assembly. After one side of the wing was completed, we flipped it over and did the other side. Acknowledging that paint is less likely to run/sag if the surface is horizontal, we welded jigs that could be flipped easily. In other words, we compensated for our lack of skills by creating an environment that was conducive to success.

wings1x.jpg


After paint. No runs, no sags.

wings2l.jpg


Wing tips are a nice divisible part. Why not do divisible parts separately to make life easier? All the yellow divisible parts were shot together.

wingtips.jpg


And the final result....

sideview.jpg


Is it perfect? Absolutely not but it cost me $1500 in materials & 3 weeks in time. If any panel needs repair in the future, I can do it myself.
 
A previous post suggested sanding the base coat. Don't do it! First off, it's a metallic, which really gets messed up by sanding. Second, the base coat in a two stage system is super thin and will start changing color as soon as you start sanding.
 
I believe this thread points out one thing--painting, for a beginner, is a risky business. I really couldn't see myself sanding off (or stripping) $400/gal paint, so I hired a pro. I believe it was one of the best decisions I made in the building process. This guy wasn't an aircraft painter, but had years of experience on autos. He took the time to learn the prep necessary and did a great job using far less paint than I could have done. He gave me a better looking plane that was lighter than if I had used it as a learning experience.

Since I went with vinyl for the second and third color, hiring a pro didn't cost all that much, less than $2000 for the prep and one color--a small price when you look at the total cost of the airplane. It worked for me.

Sorry I can't be helpful in how to fix painting errors, but perhaps someone else can use this experience to save themselves this kind of headache and expense you experienced. IMHO, painting is and art. Only an artist should do it. Don't settle for a poor paint job on your beautiful aluminum masterpiece--you won't be happy with it for a LONG time. Good luck and do whatever it takes!

Bob Kelly
I probably should have stripped my fuselage too but chose to sand the $400 a gallon paint off and respray it. This is just to help cheer you up a little; there can be a pretty rainbow after the storm has passed.
2.jpg

Christmas2009.jpg
 
I like Mr Nomad's approach

Yeah, he's been painting for 30 years, but I really believe I can paint my plane and can't wait to get to that phase. I'll be practicing a lot beforehand, but it will be as satisfying to me to paint as it is to build. But, that's just me.:)
 
Each time I paint I go over the rules. It's like preflight.

To be perfectly accurate, I probably have painted 30 cars over 30 years so it's not like I do it every day. My rules reflect many mistakes.

Base coat / clear coat has its own challenge, especially if it's a metallic. If you sand a metallic base, you will surely ruin the color but not to worry. If your paint adhered properly, in other words, it's not bubbling or lifting, sand it to make sure that the next coat of base adheres properly.

Here's a photo of the tail fin of my Nomad (BEFORE I rubbed it out).

leftfin702.jpg


When I shoot metallic, the final coat of base actually levels the color which eliminates tiger stripes. The final coat of base changes the appearance of the paint almost entirely. Whereas you apply enough base to achieve color holdout (tack between shoots) in applications 1 & 2, the final coat of metallic base is done with a wider fan, more material, and an irregular pattern. It wastes a lot of material but the metal remains on the surface of the color and looks dead bang gorgeous.

Tack after waiting for the prescribed cure time, then apply clear.

But you really need to practice and make sure the tools are perfectly clean, the air free of moisture, the regulator is not some piece of junk, the floor is clean and moist, the air is being evacuated, the air coming into the booth is filtered, etc., and the test pieces you shot BEFORE you attacked the airplane achieve the same fan.

Painting and dancing have a lot in common. You must establish a rhythm and move along the surface in an equidistant manner. Picture a robot that is programmed to remain 6-8 inches away from the surface, perfectly perpendicular, act accordingly.

I'm building the air box for the 6A right now so feel free to call if you like.

520-797-0265
 
painting it yourself

Someone, I don't know who, said, "if you want to make an amature build (poor quality craftsmanship) look like a professional built the plane, hire a professional painter. If, on the other hand, you want to make a really well built plane look like an amature built it, paint it yourself". or something like that...:p

I hired a pro....very satisfied.:)
Ron
N8ZD
RV-4 with an -8 slider
 
Practice makes perfect

Don't you just love it when people who failed to persevere, conquer their fears, and/or overcome their inabilities suggest that others give up too?

Fortunately, Wilbur and Orville didn't listen and we're thankful for their commitment to aviation. They kept trying until they got it right. Randy should too.

Sue
 
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again?

When I built my 6A I purchased an HVLP unit from Aircraft Spruce. But the task of painting the plane was daunting to me so I let a "pro" due it. He had a hanger and had done other planes before and it cost me @4500.00. I was very satisfied.
On my 8A since it was all in pieces I decided I was going to paint it myself. I had the equipment, decided on a simple paint scheme (mostly all white and a contrasting color) it was all apart and turned my garage into a crude paint booth. So far I am happy with the results. Is it perfect? No as I do have some areas of orange peel. But overall I am okay with the results. Everytime I shoot paint I learn a little more and become a bit better. Would I do this for a living? No way and more power to those who do. I have spent about 1,000.00 on paint and materials and know I won't have a show plane but a nice enough job. I used SW Jet Glo paints. Now if it wasn't for the cat hairs sticking to everything I would be happy. :)

Allan Stern
RV 6A flying
RV 8A going to airport in March
 
If you do start over.......

Two things you can do to make your life easier:

1) Forget the base coat/clear coat and go with a single stage paint. I've painted about 10 airplanes in the last 12 years. I'm no expert, but I can get a pretty decent job. I used Base/Clear one time only, and decided there was no way it was worth all the extra effort and rushing around that is required. I have had excellent results with UTEK, which is an Azko Nobel fleet finish product, as well as Air-Tech urethanes. We used to use Dupont and RM Arcrylic Enamels, and they are ok, but don't match the gloss of the urethanes. I just did a job with the Stewart System waterborne, but did not like it. Others rave about it, so maybe its just me.

2) If you can stand it, don't use metallic paints. They take additional skills to get a good job. Not that its terrible, but its one thing more that adds complication. I only use them if I am really hung up on a particular color.

Just one opinion. Good luck.
 
I received same info as n180tf above...

from my Dupont sales person,"Use single stage urethane enamel paint and NO metallics any you will do fine". I am a couple of years away from painting, but do have my father in law, who used to do auto body work/painting. I built my own house and two garages. They are not perfect and are not for show. The same will go for my plane. It makes me feel good to be able to say that I did it myself. Also about $8-10,000 left over for fuel. I guess it also depends on how much money you have. If I could work 3 or 4 weeks and make the money it took to paint my plane I would rather be doing my day job. That is not going to happen though so I will be painting mine.
 
Thanks everybody

It has been a hard road but one way or the other I will push through it. Today I learned that my painter is going to outsource the spraying to somebody who has done alot of PPG base/clear work. We are still going to strip the fuse and wings, started prepping the fuse today. I worked on it all day and I might be half way to applying the stripper, to the fuse that is. It is definately going to be a long road. I am taping off everything on the fuse with aluminum tape, including putting thin tape down inbetween the seams of sheetmetal. We also have some stripper coming out of Canada, I guess that is where the good stuff is. Anyway, I will try to keep posts coming of my progress.

Randy
Paint ****
 
I probably should have stripped my fuselage too but chose to sand the $400 a gallon paint off and respray it. This is just to help cheer you up a little; there can be a pretty rainbow after the storm has passed.
2.jpg

Christmas2009.jpg

Steve,

That's a beautiful paint job. My airplane will have the same engine and prop as yours. I can only hope the paint might turn out as well.

What paint/process did you use? Did you have previous metal painting experience?

And a little off topic; how do you like the engine/prop combination?
 
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Steve,

That's a beautiful paint job. My airplane will have the same engine and prop as yours. I can only hope the paint might turn out as well.

What paint/process did you use? Did you have previous metal painting experience?

And a little off topic; how do you like the engine/prop combination?
I love the engine prop combination and would wouldn't change anything if I were doing it today. You will love how smooth the prop is. Tell Craig how you want to fly your plane and he will build you a beautiful prop. I just told him that I wanted my plane to be 2 Kts faster than my hangar mates RV (with a fixed Sensenich). I am not quite there but I still don't have my landing gear fairings finished :D

I worked in a body shop when I was in High School but not much after that. The basics of good body work haven't changed much so I only had to sand off about $1,000 worth of paint during the relearning process.

All of the paint is House of Kolor; Kandy Apple Red, Black Pearl, Gold Perl and White
 
Steve, it's gorgeous, and serves as a very fine example of doing it until it is done right.....no matter what it takes. My compliments sir.
 
Steve, what a beautiful paint job! I have looked at House of Kolor paint also. I am of the impression that HOK paints are set up to be fairly thick (as in many mils thickness). Is that the way you applied the paint? Did you weigh your plane before and after painting?

LarryT
 
strippin' off the old paint

It really does sounds like your painting experience has been a nightmare, but it seems your actually taking it pretty well. Good for you.
Stripping the paint off aluminum is not difficult, it's just really messy. I suggest you buy a good quality aircraft paint stripper (availble at Spruce and here in California, Napa Auto stores.)
But first and MOST importantly though, you must PROTECT anything and everything that is not to be stripped. The stripper and even its fumes can and will ruin plexiglass and fiberglass etc. There is an aluminumized tape availible, that should be used around the perimeter of any plexiglass, that the stripper will not penetrate. Two layers around the perimeter, then mask off the center area well. Also wrap fiberglass parts with mutiple layers of newspaper or masking. Once everthing is protected, spread down LOTS of newspaper over a blue tarp and have at it.
Follow the directions on the can, and it will remove the paint remarkably well. Let the chemical do the work, you shouldn't have to do any heavy or hard scraping at all. Try not to let the stripper completely dry out before flushing, work on managable areas. Use plastic scrappers, no metal. Water is used to flush. After you've removed 99% of the paint, flushed, and dried, use scotch brite to remove the rest. The little pnuematic 2" scotch brite discs work well. Pay particular attention to each rivet head and all seams, ANY left-over stripper will show up later and make you unhappy.
I would then re-acid etch, Alodine, then prime. Only when you are happy with the finish of your primer, would you move on to top coats.
Hang in there, the stripping is not going to take that long. But like everthing else we do, preparation it the key.
Dave
 
Painting was the worst / best part for me

I painted mine. I had years of experience spraying clear lacquer in my (former) cabinet shop. Because it was more familiar, I used a single stage system.

Painting was by far the most challenging part of my project. At times I felt like I ruined 3 years of work with the paint job. I am not a quitter, but I almost gave up on the paint after sanding and re-spraying the tail 4 times.

Eventually it all came together. I am very happy with my paint job. I get compliments on it often and won Grand Champion at the local EAA flyin.

When I was going through the horrible learning curve, I regretted the decision to paint myself. Now I look back on it as the most rewarding part of my project.

I still know where every flaw is though....:rolleyes:
 
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Painting is fulfilling but lots of patience, practice & study is required

Here are a couple Pics of the current status http://img683.imageshack.us/i/rv8a015.jpg/][img=http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7614/rv8a015.th.jpg][/url][img=http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1162/rv8a010.th.jpg]
We are masking off everything with aluminum tape and foil.

That will work!! I use much less expensive plastic fine line tape and plastic sheeting to mask parts or sections that should not be painted. Body shop grade paper also works well. If my roll of fine line tape is more than a year old, I toss it. The worst things that can happen during a paint job is to run out of materials, a dead compressor, or masking that lifts.

If anyone thinks they can mask with Home Depot 3M tape, they are sadly mistaken. Paint will bleed right thru. Newspaper too.

The bottom line to this thread was stated eloquently a little earlier. Painting is one of the most difficult tasks to learn if you do not have patience, fail to practice, and/or refuse to learn from others. However, successfully executed, it's one of the most satisfying. Hmmmm, don't the same rules apply to flying?

Here's a pic of a 55 Chev we did in my 2 car garage. Base coat/clear coat with lots of metal. If an old man like me can do it, so can you young guys. We liked the color so much we're going to use it on Chet's 6A wing tips and wheel pants. Next to a white fuse, it ought to look great!

42009buffing.jpg
 
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