Blue Mountain Avionics revelation !

Well here is some long awaited good news concerning N331JH, Efis 1 and BMA. The awsome, good guy, extremely smart Bob Northrup arrived to wellington today and worked all day long on Jim's 10. This guy I heard was good, but that is an understatement.. I recommended a long time ago that the 1500 bucks was well worth it to have him install your Efis, I whole heartedyl greatly stand by that statement. ( BTW , did you all know he teaches people how to build RV's?)
He was sent here by Greg at BMI at BMI's expense. To prevent redundant writing, I will just list what we found out today:

****The life altering malfunction of our aileron servo that caused the jammed control rod was caused by turning on the autopilot control box before it had an intelligent signal from the efis. Bob says that with that voltage surge at start up without Efis input can cause those DC motors to go nuts. When we had the malfunction, I had turned on the master to get fuel pressure to check the gascolator, this spike caused the elev. and aileron servo motors to go hard over, thereby causing the over center condition I wrote about earlier.
Bob said one should NEVER turn on the autopilot control box before the Efis, and Jim will now install a seperate switch for the autopilot. It is currently powered by the trim breaker/switch. (No mention of this in the manual.)
As a side note, Jim has the Efis powered by a standby battery and the autopilot off the main bus via the trim circuit breaker. Bob says this needs to be a checklist item for powering the Efis before the autopilot.
**** Bob says in agreement with my initial recommendations to Jim, the rod from the servos to the controls need to be a hollow, stiff tube.
****Apparently, the servo wire extensions we added to the wire harness sent to us from BMA, were 24 guage wire. Jim purchased them at radio Shack. Bob says that those motors routinely pull 5 or 6 amps, and, well you do the math. The wire is way too small, so when inflight, the aerodynamic forces are far in excess than what the wire can provide in amperage to the servos. Hence why the ground tests worked and there was no indication of servo lockup inflight. BMA is making up at their expense new harnesses with the required 18 guage wire the proper length.
**** Jim is currently designing in his CNC machine shop, a prototype bolt on servo arm stop bracket to prevent in excess of +/- 60 deg. max servo arm travel. I personally expect to see this available in a couple of months.
**** The ammeter problem, is hopefully fixed by extra damping and only three AD values, we had 12, so to hopefully prevent transient spikes/alarms.
**** The new software (I forget the version sorry, maybe 2.6?) Bob installed should have fixed the no RPM below 1000 problem.
After my previous ranting about BMA ( I am still ordering a GRT Sport by the way), I fell 1000% better now about BMA. Greg and I have both calmed down, gotten to know each other a little, and the company sure seems to now be on the right track.
Without letting the cat out of the bag, you guys need to talk to BMA and see the unbeleivable things they are working on right now, ie, an awsome Lite Sport, Efis one with tiny boxes, software changes, etc....Sounds like the future is brightening greatly in an exponential manner.
I can only hope the same people that cut and pasted some of my complaints to Greg will now have the courtesy to do the same with this more positive forum.
keep your chins up guys, there appears to be a light/non train at the end of the tunnel. Great news huh?
Glen

Glen,

Glad to hear that things are working much better for your Efis 1. I was qetting nervous about BMA after I ordered my 2 G3 lites. Reading several posts about the neqative sides of BMA efis'. Right now I paitently await the delivery of my G3 lites in about two weeks (I hope - 8 week wait). Hopefully the install will go smoothly and if any bugs arise that BMA will take care of ME...

I am ecstatic there has been some degree of resolution to everyones satisfaction. Hope you get the changes made rapidly and start enjoying some XC time in your 10.

I took the unusual step of going back and reading my installation manual and looking at the current version of this manual on the BM website and re learned some interesting facts which I will post on the original BM autopilot thread.

As to cutting and pasting I believe that is unecessary as Bob and Greg both have had unfettered access to the forum and have been closely paying attention to all concerns and complaints. I believe they wisely chose to work on issues and evaluate the problems as opposed to engaging in counterproductive angry debate.

Bottom line is if you are one who needs to take a unit out of the box, plug it in and use it then BM ain't for you.


I think if you have the 2 units on order that you state you are going to be more than happy with them once they are in and running and as mentioned above their capabilities will be greatly expanded if half of what Greg has on the drawing board ever comes to fruition.

I've been watching this thread with interest, as I own and have installed an EfisOne from BMA.

let me start by saying I am going to be a little harsh on the pilot(s) involved, but it's not intended to flame. Only to express an opinion and dissapointment.

1. All the problems from the AP installation were 1) preventable, 2) documented in the manuals
2. The AP installation (not the EfisOne) requires damn few wires. Power, and running SUPPLIED cables to servos, and running a SUPPLIED ethernet wire. It aint that hard to install the AP. I used a couple of pushrods not unlike what was described here.....they are nearly exactly the same as the aileron pushrods to construct.....basic stuff.
3. I still don't feel an honest summary has been made here. How about
- builder didn't install a master AP power switch PER THE MANUAL
- builder didn't watch for overcenter condition and install PER THE MANUAL
- builder didn't use proper wire size PER THE MANUAL
- damping spikey values in also in the manual
- I've never seen the RPM problem mentioned, nor has anyone I know....but I havent tried all software, so I am sure that was a bug

Bottom line, there was alot of flamin' BMA going on and real specificity about the problems, but the resolution reads alot like "Greg came and fixed his box".....when it should read like "Greg came and fixed building mistakes that were almost all warnings that were documented and avoidable"

Again, sorry if interpreted as a flame. But there is alot of bad information out there, and builder problems get perceived as BMA problems. It isn't that complex, but it is no way turn-key, either.

I am VERY happy with my unit, had almost no install problems and found the factory the same as finally mentioned here....superb.

Jon

The bird is a bit late for Thanksgiving!

Glen,

Hope you enjoy your late Thanksgiving dinner of crow.

Dr D

Nope, no crow here and read on gentlemen.

jon said:

I've been watching this thread with interest, as I own and have installed an EfisOne from BMA.

let me start by saying I am going to be a little harsh on the pilot(s) involved, but it's not intended to flame. Only to express an opinion and dissapointment.

1. All the problems from the AP installation were 1) preventable, 2) documented in the manuals
2. The AP installation (not the EfisOne) requires damn few wires. Power, and running SUPPLIED cables to servos, and running a SUPPLIED ethernet wire. It aint that hard to install the AP. I used a couple of pushrods not unlike what was described here.....they are nearly exactly the same as the aileron pushrods to construct.....basic stuff.
3. I still don't feel an honest summary has been made here. How about
- builder didn't install a master AP power switch PER THE MANUAL
- builder didn't watch for overcenter condition and install PER THE MANUAL
- builder didn't use proper wire size PER THE MANUAL
- damping spikey values in also in the manual
- I've never seen the RPM problem mentioned, nor has anyone I know....but I havent tried all software, so I am sure that was a bug

Bottom line, there was alot of flamin' BMA going on and real specificity about the problems, but the resolution reads alot like "Greg came and fixed his box".....when it should read like "Greg came and fixed building mistakes that were almost all warnings that were documented and avoidable"

Again, sorry if interpreted as a flame. But there is alot of bad information out there, and builder problems get perceived as BMA problems. It isn't that complex, but it is no way turn-key, either.

I am VERY happy with my unit, had almost no install problems and found the factory the same as finally mentioned here....superb.

Jon

Click to expand...

Ok, now that Greg has actuially , finally spoken to me (read history) the last thing I want is to alienate him again, but please, all interested listen up, yet once again...
**** BMA's history of delivery proiblems has a well documented history, mine was nightmarish. These have been corrected apparently. AWSOME!
**** Yep, install is not complex, programming is.....and REALLY NOT turn key, correct. Especially with the supplied manuals. Larry apparently is feverishly fixing this issue
**** I, for the life of me cannot find in the manual ANYTHING about the servo motors requireing 5 amps worth of wire.
****331JH's aileron pushrods, ok they bend a little, BUT, only in extreme hard over situations only. I for the life of me could not over center the rods unless pushed VERY hard, like really hard. This of course became easier once the servo over centered the rod and bent it slightly If anyone's servo is in the wing tip, as I refered to earlier, this can happen to you if you are pushing the 60 deg. travle limit, little slop, end rib gives a little.... etc.
**** Ok, yep Bob fixed the ammeter warning issue, but here is the rest of the story gentlemen. He changed the alarm to minus 10 amps. Now, to prevent unwanted alarms, IMHO this is a pretty low number and if you are running Jim's plane for example, with just the efis running, well, you will find out the Alt. quit when the bus voltage drops too low NOT when the alt. quits. Fix? Yep...Ideal fix? Well, you all decide. Probably best/safest fix is to install a warning light like in cars.
**** RPM issue. In my few emails to Greg I seem to remember he said the software would fix the "not reading below 1000 RPM". I was mistaken, as Bob says there is a fix required in the CPU on a card that will require sending the CPU back to BMA. We are NOT THE ONLY ONES with this problem. read BMA's discussion board. RPM still, IAW Bob, will not read at idle, ie. below 1000 or so RPM.
****I have said since day one that BMA promised to get us up and running. I actually did believe them and of course still do. Initial problems were well documented. You all be the judge. In a phone conversation between myself, Sheila, and Jim, we were assured that the EFIS 1 with BMA harnesses would be "plug and play" That is a quote with a witness. I am pretty sure that is no longer said, but WAS said to us.
**** I have always said from day one, that Bob Northrup was an unbelievably smart guy. Of course I was wrong. He actually is even smarter than I thought! And just a great guy...Builder, Avionics tech, veteren, RV builder (8A and 10)
**** The oil pressure spiking with the radio transmitting, has mysteriously dissapeared over the last few flights. Nothing was done but fly the plane .
**** As far as the autopilot fix, I guess I truly believe Bob that the fix is in the wires, he is convinced as such, but we will need to wait a few weeks for the final say, as the plane is currently down for paint and installing the new BMA supplied wires in the wing
**** The new software although better, much better, does not address fully all of my previous complaints They only appear to be improved. Very refreshing actually, But.......................

**** I am still on the waiting list for my GRT Sport. Delivery number 17. No money down.

Any way,....nope, nuh uh, no crow eaten here. Bad information, well in your opinion, to us.... it is a repitition of fact.................... But thanks any way, my turkey was actually really good.

Bottom line here gentlemen.......


BMA is company trying their best to educate the buying public,improve their unique, industry leading high tech products, and put out past fires, refreshing, very refreshing.
I sincerely DO BELIEVE, that BMA has great ideas, products, motivation and will be around for a long time. To downplay those of us though, who are less than impressed by certain things, and have had problems, is disingunuine and and is tantamount to book burning/ hiding the truth. This and other forums have hopefully educated some of us to help in their installs, purchases and better homebuilding. To repress those who do not have "magic installs", is not fair to all those purchasing, installing, researching, etc.
Remember guys, it is human nature to not speak up when you make a mistake. I am neither shy about admitting a mistake, nor shy about calling a spade a spade...Prove me wrong, and I will shoot the crow myself. Referencing the MANY emails and phone calls I have received from frustrated builders, there are many shy ones out there that lurk here. I on the other hand, when I see a spade...........


Glen

huh?

Glen,
WADR, you've gone from shrill to shill. You are sending very mixed signals. You DO realize that this entire story...particularly the happy ending ... is turning OFF anyone on the fence with regard to BMA, right?

Just so we understand this correctly: you are now ecstatic b/c of the "house call" by SuperBob to fix problems that by your own account are (I'm paraphrasing) "endemic to the system and shared by a large group of silent unhappy customers"?

Perhaps it's in the "telling" but hearing you tell it, a "conversation with GregGod" and a "visit by SuperBob on his magic carpet" (no offense to Bob Northrup, who is indeed very good) has removed all of these systemic problems?

What happens if Bob leaves the company? (This is a serious question, btw).

no sugar coating: the story as told by you calls into question the continuity of BMA (a legitimate concern) AS WELL AS the judgement of the builders vis a vis control rods, wiring, overcenter, etc. I'm SURE this isn't your intention, but you guys are not coming across in the best light.

judgement issues:

glenthompson said:

331JH's aileron pushrods, ok they bend a little, BUT, only in extreme hard over situations only. I for the life of me could not over center the rods unless pushed VERY hard, like really hard. This of course became easier once the servo over centered the rod and bent it slightly If anyone's servo is in the wing tip, as I refered to earlier...

Click to expand...

"OK THEY BEND A LITTLE"!!!!!!! this statement makes me want to pull my hair out. I would NEVER get in this airplane. This is FLUTTER waiting to happen.

the control rod issues are not BMA's problem, but they are reflecting poorly on BMA by way of the builders' judgement in using solid rods and the seemingly casual treamtment of the overcenter condition.

Here's the REAL problem: the fact that you can "barely" replicate the overcenter by manual force makes me wonder just how much force the BMA servos actually generated!!! By your own account, it had to be enormous, i.e. the risks are STILL UNKNOWN if it happened in flight....servo stops are a kluge without shear pins....

Confusing installation, poor manual, having to add dedicated servo kill switches, overcenter stops, checklist procedures, etc. etc. all adds to the UNEASE of the "silent community" in evaluating BMA against the other alternatives, namely GRT and TruTrak.

The EFIS 1 is the biggest headache for BMA users. The G3 Lite is much better, the Sport less known.

BMA appears to be improving, but this is by no means an isolated story. Greg is a genius for sure, but while having a happy ending (so far), it makes me all the more certain that Jim Younkin is a genius in business as well.

BMA has a classic "u-shaped" business model: great potential, good product, so-so execution, good after-the-fact followup, unsurpassed commitment. Unfortunately, this is historically not a good profile for long-term survival. The saving grace is Greg's acknowledgement of these issues and his willingness to address them openly.

BMA's biggest problem: Humongous potential combined with lack of focus and discipline. Betamax; Macintosh. If they get this sorted out, they'd own the "experimental glass" business. Alas, the jury is still out.

I sincerely hope they make it for the long haul. I was one of BMA's most ardent supporters going back to the early years. Greg knows me quite well and we had many conversations about how to improve the overall BMA experience, which he is the first to admit needed serious upgrading.

Fly safe. (I'm starting to feel like GMC with these long posts )

Final comment, horse is dead, you all decide, I'm done here....

ship said:

Glen,
WADR, you've gone from shrill to shill. You are sending very mixed signals. You DO realize that this entire story...particularly the happy ending ... is turning OFF anyone on the fence with regard to BMA, right?


Just so we understand this correctly: you are now ecstatic b/c of the "house call" by SuperBob to fix problems that by your own account are (I'm paraphrasing) "endemic to the system and shared by a large group of silent unhappy customers"?

Perhaps it's in the "telling" but hearing you tell it, a "conversation with GregGod" and a "visit by SuperBob on his magic carpet" (no offense to Bob Northrup, who is indeed very good) has removed all of these systemic problems?

What happens if Bob leaves the company? (This is a serious question, btw).

no sugar coating: the story as told by you calls into question the continuity of BMA (a legitimate concern) AS WELL AS the judgement of the builders vis a vis control rods, wiring, overcenter, etc. I'm SURE this isn't your intention, but you guys are not coming across in the best light.

judgement issues:

"OK THEY BEND A LITTLE"!!!!!!! this statement makes me want to pull my hair out. I would NEVER get in this airplane. This is FLUTTER waiting to happen.

the control rod issues are not BMA's problem, but they are reflecting poorly on BMA by way of the builders' judgement in using solid rods and the seemingly casual treamtment of the overcenter condition.

Here's the REAL problem: the fact that you can "barely" replicate the overcenter by manual force makes me wonder just how much force the BMA servos actually generated!!! By your own account, it had to be enormous, i.e. the risks are STILL UNKNOWN if it happened in flight....servo stops are a kluge without shear pins....

Confusing installation, poor manual, having to add dedicated servo kill switches, overcenter stops, checklist procedures, etc. etc. all adds to the UNEASE of the "silent community" in evaluating BMA against the other alternatives, namely GRT and TruTrak.

The EFIS 1 is the biggest headache for BMA users. The G3 Lite is much better, the Sport less known.

BMA appears to be improving, but this is by no means an isolated story. Greg is a genius for sure, but while having a happy ending (so far), it makes me all the more certain that Jim Younkin is a genius in business as well.

BMA has a classic "u-shaped" business model: great potential, good product, so-so execution, good after-the-fact followup, unsurpassed commitment. Unfortunately, this is historically not a good profile for long-term survival. The saving grace is Greg's acknowledgement of these issues and his willingness to address them openly.

BMA's biggest problem: Humongous potential combined with lack of focus and discipline. Betamax; Macintosh. If they get this sorted out, they'd own the "experimental glass" business. Alas, the jury is still out.

I sincerely hope they make it for the long haul. I was one of BMA's most ardent supporters going back to the early years. Greg knows me quite well and we had many conversations about how to improve the overall BMA experience, which he is the first to admit needed serious upgrading.

Fly safe. (I'm starting to feel like GMC with these long posts )

Click to expand...

First, the flutter issue, IAW my areodynamic knowledge and another aerodynamically educated individual in a previous post, flutter is not the issue, and will not happen in this case soley due to the old pushrod. The control rod in question is the one from the servo to the bellcrank in the wing that goes to the aileron. A "little bending" here is NOT a place where flutter will start, it is only aileron servo input here,(from wingtip rib to bellcrank) The control system other than this rod is exactly as Van's wants and as it should be. Hysterisis/slop/bending in the control linkages from the stick to the aileron and back to the other aileron is where our flutter concerns lie guys. I might add, my fellow airplane inspectors/builders, that rod end/stick bearing slop IS where the flutter issue might arise, NOT in the servo push rod. Rolling hysterisis, a problem? Yep, but aerodynamic flutter? NOPE!


I also want to be put on record, that I have NEVER intentionally tried to sway anybody directly for or against BMA. Make people reconsider, possibly.... I tried in my best way to let my/our story out for public consumption. I DID THOUGH, want to inform any people I personally might have scared off of BMA about the resolution of 331JH. I have had many emails from pontentially scared buyers of BMA products, expressing concern for BMA support, especially in the E1 department. They ALL wanted to know immediatly what Greg etc., did to make Jim the owner happy, so they could put their order in.


I am convinced that I scared away as many as I consoled and will/have ordered Those who I might have scared, who did not write me, well....I am also here to be sure they are informed and can adjust their buying decisions accordingly. Guys, you must remember, the initial install DID have some genuine concerns, and between myself being on trips, BMA getting back to us, Bob being busy, and Brent trying to get some work done while I was gone, poor Jim thought the plane would never get done.


Shrill? HHmmm, anybody who thinks I am being shrill, well, they must not like hearing about reality in unabridged honest english. Just keep your heads in the sand then..... PC I am not, and never indicated to be, or accused otherwise. PC sucks. And yes, the emporer has no clothes...Also.... My Gawd, can I not sway my opinion about BMA's customer service since they have come through in the end come as promised?

And don't even THINK ABOUT that our tough installation has not helped anybody. It most certainly has, (RE. MANY EMAILS AND PHONE CALLS FROM LIKEWISE CONFUSED BUILDERS) and yep, I possibly swayed some against BMA, but...maybe those are people like myself, that Greg probably would not want as customers any way, since I would continously point out to everybody the things I am dissapointed with in my plane's efis. ( I have not bad mouthed Jim's Efis to anybody outside this forum since the plane has flown, so calm down)


Bottom line for Glen here ladies and gentlemen. This is my thread, so I am allowed to soap box here guys........

Myself, Brent, Jim...we are not rookies when it comes to the building process..... and.... Many times I had to console Jim, and we calmed each other down when he would say "I just want to send the damn thing back". BUT, is Jim happy now? ABSOLUTELY! He has both the RV grin and the Efis 1 grin now. My opinion any more, after this post...... is absolutely irrevelent any more.

Now, a few questions, (rhethorically please) for all......With only praise for BMA on some threads, is not some differing news beneficial for buyers to know what they are getting into, especially a while back during BMA's infancy? ( I wish I had personally heard about the REAL delivery issues before I put my money down and sold my old Kitfox's avionics for example.).....


Did not my "shrilling" get the word out to many purchasers that maybe they need to consider professional help, greatly easing their build experience? (your welcome Bob haha)....Hasn't BMA REALLY gotten on the fix the manuals and make people happy bandwagon?....Did I and others contribute to getting Greg's attention to make BMA an even better company?......How can Jim's happy ending push anybody off the fence from BMA if they have not already fallen off? ( I think based on my emails, that several have fallen BACK TOWARD BMA BTW...).
That is it, I am done here, you all sit back and decide and "shrill" amongst yourselves. I will let Brent and Jim advise how the autopilot thing turns out once I get his plane painted and flying again.
Me? I''m gonna get my Kitfox's GRT Sport installed as soon as it comes, and try my darndest to keep my RV 6 under construction.

Jim, it was one of life's pleasuresto help you finish your 10 and fly off the time in it. The 10 is the best thing going!!!!!! PERIOD......... !!!!!

Bob Northrup,... BMA will never know how much you are helping them in the work you do every day.....Greg, overall an awsome product, sorry some of us find it hard to get to work right, and sorry, I am taking my personal efis dollars elsewhere. And Greg, I might add the GRT Sport in comparison to your lite, well GRT pales in comparison to features, but, well, Jim does accuse me of being anal, and the GRT is as fluid as a steam guage. I personally prefer this, as compared to the pretty cool bells and whistles your units have.
I've said all I can or wanna say about this, hope I have sparked some thought, informed others, shrilled to some, and those who care to share information via PM, I would love the conversation. See ya.
Glen

Again, no flame intended.

In the BMA AP installation manual, under "Physical Dimensions and Operating Limits" it lists the voltage range being 10-32 volts and current being Max of 7amps. It does not tell the builder what wire size to use. Neither does about a million other aviation products we install in our ships.

Well, I for one had no problems installing or calibrating mine. No superbob, no greg flying in. It took a few hours. Come to think of it, I did call BMA about calibrating pressure senders....i didn't like the factory curves.

I don't consider myself a genius, but I do have basic familiarity with electronics.

My diagnosis: Greg created a monster by being some open and inviting. Now anyone who posts is asking for something or bitching about something. Most never take the time, as WAS DONE ABOVE (thank you) to go tell the whole story......a story that usually ends in "well, I did something wrong".

One could argue succesfully that Greg should make the whole thing easier....for example, how many people DON'T order sensors from Greg? probably none. So, why not insist that we all do it, precalibrate the sensors on the bench with a pressure device and temperature standard, and ship the box with jumpers set and calibration complete? It adds about 60 minutes to shipping time to cal the sensors.....worth the effort

Jon

glenmthompson said:

The control rod in question is the one from the servo to the bellcrank in the wing that goes to the aileron. A "little bending" here is NOT a place where flutter will start, it is only aileron servo input here,(from wingtip rib to bellcrank) The control system other than this rod is exactly as Van's wants and as it should be. Hysterisis/slop/bending in the control linkages from the stick to the aileron and back to the other aileron is where our flutter concerns lie guys.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Whether it's compliance in the stick-to-aileron linkage or the servo-to-aileron linkage, any hysterisis/slop/bending is a problem. In fact I'd be more concerned about the servo case because if the AP is flying I'm out of the loop and may not notice a developing flutter event. Furthermore, the servo control dynamics are in the loop now, which gives more oportunities for dynamic interaction.