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SMO
02-22-2009, 12:01 AM
Here's what I plan for my panel. Dual GRTs in the center, Garmin 696 on the right topped with trim indicators, top left are 2.25" Airspeed, Altimeter and Vertical Compass, in the stack on bottom left, from the bottom, are Sorcerer AP, Garmin GTX 330 Transponder, Garmin SL30, and PMA 8000B Audio Panel.

I already have these items except for the 696. Would you change anything?

http://www3.telus.net/public/molsons/F1%20Rocket%20Parts/Panel/Panel%20Builder.jpg

Brantel
02-22-2009, 07:02 AM
I would send the Sorcerer back and swap it for the DFII-VSGV. You don't need all those fancy modes as the GRT's can emulate them.

Are you putting the EIS behind the panel?

Why not use the GRT for flap & trim indicators?

Plan on IFR? If so a certified GPS seems to almost be required these days.


Here's what I plan for my panel. Dual GRTs in the center, Garmin 696 on the right topped with trim indicators, top left are 2.25" Airspeed, Altimeter and Vertical Compass, in the stack on bottom left, from the bottom, are Sorcerer AP, Garmin GTX 330 Transponder, Garmin SL30, and PMA 8000B Audio Panel.

I already have these items except for the 696. Would you change anything?

http://www3.telus.net/public/molsons/F1%20Rocket%20Parts/Panel/Panel%20Builder.jpg

Vlad
02-22-2009, 07:38 AM
Would you change anything?

http://www3.telus.net/public/molsons/F1%20Rocket%20Parts/Panel/Panel%20Builder.jpg

I would move GPS appr 1/16 to left. :D and radio stack 1/16 to the right as well :D
Excellent modern panel Mark! I will make me something like yours in next life...

81T
02-22-2009, 08:17 AM
I like your selections, however I would want to fly from the right seat:)

aerhed
02-22-2009, 09:34 AM
Mark, with careful consideration using small rockers or such, you may still put your switches on the left. This lets you use your go hand on them. That way you don't have to cross hands or swap stick. That looks purty good.

osxuser
02-22-2009, 09:37 AM
I agree, the only thing that seems to be missing is an IFR certified GPS for approaches. A UPSAT GX50 or GX60 (GPS Comm) would be a good budget choice, obvious next step up is a GNS430 WAAAAAAAS.... I'd do the GX60/GPS 496 combo myself, and probably be only $1000 more. Adds the second comm capabilities too.

SMO
02-22-2009, 10:08 AM
I would send the Sorcerer back and swap it for the DFII-VSGV. You don't need all those fancy modes as the GRT's can emulate them. .

I bought all this (except the 696) used so no returns allowed. I thought about selling the Sorcerer and buying something simpler but probably no financial advantage

Are you putting the EIS behind the panel?.
Yes

Why not use the GRT for flap & trim indicators?
How many indicators will the GRT show at the same time?

I agree, the only thing that seems to be missing is an IFR certified GPS for approaches. A UPSAT GX50 or GX60 (GPS Comm) would be a good budget choice, obvious next step up is a GNS430 WAAAAAAAS.... I'd do the GX60/GPS 496 combo myself, and probably be only $1000 more. Adds the second comm capabilities too.
I never gave this serious consideration, but willl look into it. I already have a 496 and was unaware of the GX60/496 combo as a certified choice. I am not currently instrument rated but have intentions...................

I do like the large form factor of the 696.

Mark, with careful consideration using small rockers or such, you may still put your switches on the left. This lets you use your go hand on them. That way you don't have to cross hands or swap stick. That looks purty good.
Good idea. I was planning on all the switches on the right "arm rest", but a few judicious choices here could be handy.

w1curtis
02-22-2009, 11:11 AM
I would replace the SL-30 and Sorcerer with an GNS-430W and a Digiflight II VSG. This will provide much additional functionality for LESS costs. Do you really need VHF Nav modes, vertical GPSS steering and altitude select for twice the cost of a Digiflight IIVSG in an RV-4?

SL-30 ($4K) - Sorcerer ($9.5K) = $13.5K
GNS-430W ($7K) - Digiflight IIVSG ($4.5K) = $11.5K

Replacing the SL-30 with a GNS-430W and a flat pack DF II VSG would still allow everything to fit.

rv6rick
02-22-2009, 03:07 PM
Yup....what Brian said.

I like the DFII as well......but since you can't return the Sorcerer you'll be keeping it.

I use the EIS in my Rocket all the time and am very happy I didn't hide it under the panel somewhere. I find myself using the EIS a LOT during the 1st 20hrs of flying for various SF and Offset adjustments. Plus I like having it to monitor fuel flow even though I have it on the EFIS. Also can be used for quick fill to 52 when you top off. I'm building a second F1 now and no way will I 'hide' the EIS. If you don't like the face (I don't) then call GRT and they'll send you the matching bezel.

Use the pitch trim, roll trim, and flaps indicators provided on the GRT screens and loose the RA's.

I'd add the 430 and pay the $400 for the GRT GPS.

Also, you have the old HW GRT screens. The new HS's are much better IMO. GRT will take your HW's in on trade. It's nice having your PFD display up with the engine info across the bottom. It frees up the 2nd screen for the GPS...even if it's a back up.

You might add a back up TC.

Building the panel is the most fun of the project for me....enjoy :).

I would send the Sorcerer back and swap it for the DFII-VSGV. You don't need all those fancy modes as the GRT's can emulate them.

Are you putting the EIS behind the panel?

Why not use the GRT for flap & trim indicators?

Plan on IFR? If so a certified GPS seems to almost be required these days.

osxuser
02-22-2009, 11:10 PM
Talk to Dan Checkoway. I do believe he has the info for making the GX60 and the Garmin X96 series to talk to each other. The GX is a good, easy to use IFR GPS with approach capability, the 496 can provide the mapping. The GX has a map, but it's small and monochrome. I fly with one often, and find it to be much superior to the Garmin 300XL, which was it's direct competition when it was new. It also, like the SL30 has the capability to talk on one frequency and monitor a second. If you have the bux, you can add the GX60 and keep the 696, I'm sure they will interface too, but I don't think it's been done because the 696 is soo new.

FWIW any moving map display is technically for reference only in IFR (Even the pricy GMX-200) so the 496 or 696 accomplishes the same thing for much cheaper... good choice there.

smokyray
02-25-2009, 05:30 AM
Mark,
Your panel costs more than my Rocket! If you can afford it, I'd go with it as is.

Of course another option would be to find some slightly used radios and gauges put the rest in a really nice motor and prop combo...find a pretty girl to ride with you and who needs glass! Horsepower my brother, all else is rubbish!

Smokey
HR2

PS: per previous posts, the Rocket seating arrangement is tandem...UPSAT IFR GPS's, Coupled Autopilots and WAAS aren't necessary for mission accomplishment. Anyone desiring forum topics concerning shooting coupled ILS's, try the RV9a!:)

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRocketII.html

osxuser
02-25-2009, 11:34 AM
...

PS: per previous posts, the Rocket seating arrangement is tandem...UPSAT IFR GPS's, Coupled Autopilots and WAAS aren't necessary for mission accomplishment. Anyone desiring forum topics concerning shooting coupled ILS's, try the RV9a!:)

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRocketII.html

Now now... There is absolutely nothing wrong with formation, acro, and IFR in the same airplane. The Rocket is ideal for all of these. The -9a has the problem of a nosewheel, and relatively low Vne...

SMO
02-25-2009, 12:37 PM
......a really nice motor and prop combo...

So Smokey, in your opinion what is a "really nice motor and prop combo"? I have an IO540 that suffered a prop strike, currently with Bart at Aerosport for teardown and inspection. This is a 155 hour Mattituck TMX. When this goes back together I intend to ensure it is well balanced and the cylinder flows are matched. I have not decided on the prop - considerations are Hartzell 2 blade, 3 blade, or MT 3 blade. Not sure if there is anything else worth considering.

I purchased the salvage from a Rocket that landed off airport so while nothing is free, I have not paid new values and intend to make use of what I ended up with - as you can see from the panel, budget was not the first consideration when this Rocket was built.

f1rocket
02-25-2009, 12:41 PM
Hey Mark,

That's close to the proposed panel in my new Rocket with some notable exceptions. Since you have the gear, I'd drop the trim indicators and possibly the backup instruments. I say this because to make it IFR capable, you'll probably want an IFR GPS, which means you'll need to re-work the radio stack side anyway. If you are not IFR, you really don't need the round instruments.

I learned quite a bit from the first Rocket and since your panel and my new one are so similiar, I'll share some of my reasoning.

1) No backup instruments. Strictly VFR. If the EFIS fails, I'll look out the window.

2) No audio panel. No need. I went with a simple PS3000 stereo intercom.

3) As others have mentioned, I also went with the TruTrak Digiflight II VS. No need for the VSG or VSGV. The way I used my previous autopilot was to just steer it on the course I wanted.

4) Can't tell from the picture if your com is a SL30 or SL40. I went with a SL40. No need for a VOR. Had one on the 430 and used it once to test it and never used it again.

5) Single screen EFIS instead of two. It is so easy to just flip between the two modes (Flight or Engine) that I found no need for the extra screen. You'll never use the map feature with a 696 in the panel anyway.

FYI, for what it's worth.

smokyray
02-25-2009, 03:19 PM
Mark,

I know this was a panel discussion, just answering your question:) Good call with Bart Lalonde, he and his wife are great folks and he does very nice work. Sounds like you are on the right track having him major it. My engine was built with LyCon flow matched cyllinders and balanced internal parts, 10:1 compression with GAMI injectors. I'm running the 2 blade Hartzell "Paddle" D twist.
Engine Things I would consider are:
* 8.5:1 pistons since 100LL's future is gloomy (re: this months Sport Aviation(91UL compression recommendation is 8.5:1 or less)
* Airflow Performance Fuel Injection unit: (Certified for MoGas)
* GAMI Injectors (Mui Bueno!) Allows LOP operations, very efficient.
*Electroair Direct Electronic Ignition(one side, Mag other) running Denso L-14U Auto racing plugs on the EI(no adapters needed) I also really like the G3 ignition.
Prop:probably the hottest topic in the Rocket world.
*First Choice: Hartzell 80" Blended Airfoil 2 blade would be my first choice based on Tom Martin's extensive research and experience running every prop out there.
*Second Choice: Hartzell 80" 2 blade "J" Twist.
* Third: MT 3 blade

Hope this helps!

Smokey
HR2

osxuser
02-25-2009, 11:29 PM
Not to create never ending debate or anything. An IFR GPS is optional for IFR, and a VOR/LOC/GS is all but mandatory for IFR. GPS isn't there yet, close but not.

Webb
02-26-2009, 06:47 PM
I would add an attitude indicator since you have glass. Put a 430 in in place of the 696 so I would also have the second radio and an IFR GPS. Also put a 106 CDI with the 430 instead of feeding it through the EFIS and have the SL30 feed the EFIS.

Connect the AP into the 430.

You're so close to an IFR monster....Go there with an IFR GPS.

Now, you could go come rain or shine and wouldn't have an excuse unless you don't have that ticket. No ticket? No excuse now not to get the ticket.

Then it's.....Hey honey, you know it's nasty weather here, how bout a trip to the beach for weekend.

Scott Hersha
02-26-2009, 07:47 PM
Mark,
Lose the trim indicators. They should be available somewhere on the EFIS (like the Dynon), and you only need to know where they are on you start or before taxi checklist. If you are going to be an IFR flyer, you may want to consider some of the previous suggestions for redundancy, but if not, then keep it simple. You don't need as many backups as you may think. Be safe and think of yourself as a backup. Land in the unlikely event of a failure and fix it. Extra holes in the panel cost money and weight. I like what you have. A 430 or 530 is expensive and continues to cost you every month if you want to use it's capabilities. If you are going to be a VFR flyer, you don't need it. I had a Skymap on my previous RV-6, which was VFR only, but gave me more useable information in a bigger picture than my later Garmin 430 when I updated my panel, and was what I always referred to 90% of the time. I fly IFR in my job 100% of the time, but could go VFR down low 90% of the time in my RV-8. Think about IFR currency, charts, GPS updates every 28 days and all goes with it in an airplane that is not that stable (stability cost knots) and ask yourself is it worth it. If it is, get some more redundancy than you have designed. If not, you don't really need backups for things you can deal with, with your skill as an airman in VFR conditions. Like I said, I like what you have so far. The round dials on the upper left is overkill, but if it gives you a warm fuzzy, it's worth it because it's not expensive (definitely not needed though).

Scott

Camillo
02-27-2009, 01:00 AM
I heard that vertical compass will suffer being beside (EFIS) power. I think it was designed to be mounted far from the panel.

SMO
02-28-2009, 01:12 AM
http://www3.telus.net/public/molsons/F1%20Rocket%20Parts/Panel/Panel%20Builder%203.jpg

Thanks to everyone who provided some input, I have considered all the suggestions and made a number of changes. It is important to understand that this is for an airplane that will initially be flown VFR, and there is a reasonable possibility I will want to convert it to IFR in the future. Here is a summary of the suggestions and what I changed:

- Lose the trim indicators. Yes - the EFIS displays this

- Lose the round gauges - There is a legal requirement for the compass so it has to stay, I kept the ASI for comfort, lost the Altimeter

- Add an AI, TC - Will look at this when/if I change over to IFR

- Switches on the left. There is room for these. Good idea, probably master and mags at least - anything I want quick access to in an emergency.

- Lose one EFIS - Did it, but put the EIS on the panel instead of behind. Will look at mounting the other EFIS for the rear passenger

- Use IFR certified GPS Will go with the 696 for now, will change when/if I change over to IFR

- Use PS 3000 Intercom Did it, saves space/weight, can sell the audio panel to offset the cost plus some left over to help fund the 696. Don't really like where I put it on the bottom right, might mount it "off panel".

- SL40 instead of SL30. Will keep the SL30 seeing I already have it.

- Vertical Compass position Installation instructions just say to be careful not to be too close to magnetic material, normal compass instructions

- Use a different (less costly) autopilot. Not much point as I already own the Sorcerer, it is used and not returnable.

F1 Rocket
02-28-2009, 09:10 PM
Hi Mark,


Panel games are fun! One thing you want to keep in mind is that not all of the panel is usable. The panel overlaps the panel bulkhead. IMO you should keep everything a min of 1" inboard from all of the edges of the panel. I used 3/4" on mine and ended up having to trim some of the bulkhead in places. keep in mine that you will need to be able to access everything at some time or another so plan ahead for this. Also, my DAR said there was no need for a separate compass. He was satisfied with the remote mag in the Dynon because it had it's own backup power source.


Danny

SMO
02-28-2009, 10:16 PM
One thing you want to keep in mind is that not all of the panel is usable. The panel overlaps the panel bulkhead. IMO you should keep everything a min of 1" inboard from all of the edges of the panel. I used 3/4" on mine and ended up having to trim some of the bulkhead in places. keep in mine that you will need to be able to access everything at some time or another so plan ahead for this.

Good point Danny, I am aware that I have exactly 25 1/4" between the bulkhead edges and will work within that space.

Also, my DAR said there was no need for a separate compass. He was satisfied with the remote mag in the Dynon because it had it's own backup power source.

Canadian regs say:

605.14 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of day VFR flight unless it is equipped with

a)......
b)......
c)......
d) A magnetic compass or a magnetic direction indicator that operates independently of the aircraft electrical generating system;

Not sure if I could get away with a backup battery or not, seeing that such a battery keeps charged by the "electrical generating system" and thus is not "independent". Worth checking though. Thanks for the tip.

Norman CYYJ
02-28-2009, 11:07 PM
Hi Mark. You must have a magnetic compass in Canada. Crazy with all the other compasses on board and if you have a complete electrical failure and an electronic ignition wanting to know the direction that you are going in a VFR plane is the last thing that will be on your mind. Most of the inspectors that I know think the regs need to be updated into the new century.

N941WR
03-01-2009, 12:20 PM
Mark,

Does your GRT have a battery backup? If so, that might get you past the compass requirement. If so, I would replace the vertical card compass with an altimeter. Should you have an electrical failure, the battery in the 696 and GRT should get home.

One minor nit, can you move the intercom over to the left? You will be surprised at how many times you adjust the squelch. (One setting for when you have a passenger and another for when the headset is strapped in the rear seat.)

Either way, the panel looks really good.

Now to figure out where to put all those pesky switches.

F1 Rocket
03-01-2009, 12:55 PM
Now to figure out where to put all those pesky switches.


On N14ZM I placed most of the switches along the lower edge of the panel. This saved a lot of extra wiring that would have been needed if I had placed them on the right side armrest as is usually done in tandem or single seat aircraft, An added bonus is that any switch can be operated by either hand if needed. The boost pump, avionics, strobe, position, and landing light switches are all PB switched breakers. The only 2 switches not on the panel are for the flaps and O2. The flap switch is located on the throttle lever and the O2 is on the right side armrest. The O2 switch is pneumatic.

I also located all of the remaining circuit breakers on the left side of the panel. This looks cool and works well but made for a very tight fit. Next time I will use fuses for all but the most critical (AP, Alt field, trim, etc) and locate the fuses in a convenient area for service.



Danny

SMO
06-06-2009, 10:26 PM
I have changed my mind (again) and am much happier with this setup.

http://www3.telus.net/public/molsons/F1%20Rocket%20Parts/Panel/Panel.jpg

I sold the GRT EFIS/AHRS and kept the EIS and one display (with GPS). I also sold the Sorcerer, PS8000B audio panel, and 496 GPS that all came with the salvage. Funds from these paid for my Trutrak EFIS AP IV and the Garmin 696 with enough left to buy a Garmin 240 which I show in the panel, though I am not yet convinced this is the right choice.

I kept my SL30, GTX330, backup ASI, Vertical Card compass, and added a g-meter. Using an AirGizmo mount for the 696.