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Fast on connectors

uk_figs

uk_figs

Well Known Member
Friend
I have been reading the Aeroelectornics book in preparation for starting some wiring and notice it refers to "fast-on" crimped connectors which look a lot like the automotive spade connectors, is this what most people use for connection to power busses etc? Are these different than the automotive parts for the higher vibration environment of an aircraft?
 
Faston connectors

The connectors Bob Nuckolls recommends are the PIDG (Pre-Insulated Diamond Grip) connectors. They are close, but not the same ones you'd buy at an automotive store - one difference is that the 'barrel' where you insert the wire is not split. There may be other differences as well (insulation material??), the AeroElectric Matronics list would be the place to get the answers. But they are automotive style connectors - nothing special for the A/C environment. BTW - this type of connector is also found on certified aircraft.

Lots of people use them (I'm planning to), now whether 'most' do or not is tough to say.

Dennis Glaeser
7A Wings
 
I got mine from B and C and I can assure you these things aren't vibrating loose! They are actually so tight that removal requires a little prying or a whole lot of wiggling.

Steve Zicree
RV4
 
I believe the biggest difference between the cheapy automotive ones and the pricier B&C ones is the plastic insulation. On the better ones (B&C and others) the insulation has a metal sleave in it. It's designed to clamp down on the insulation of the wire to immobilize the bare strands in the crimp. Same thing you'd want if you're soldering it to keep it from flexing and eventually breaking.

The cheapy ones you get a home depot don't have this sleave. The plastic mashes down around the insulation, but never grips that well to begin with. Also, it loosens up with time and eventually doesn't grip at all. I stopped using the cheapy ones years ago after melting down two batteries due to broken wires.
 
Fast-on connectors

Sounds like B&C here I come, now onto the one battery versus two and 12v versus 28V (just kidding :D )
 
It's actually a number of things in addition to the extra sleeve. The sleeve is a support for the insulation, but in addition to that sleeve the aircraft quality terminals that many of us suppliers sell also have a fair bit of other things that differentiate them from their automotive counterparts.

Others have pointed out the sleeve, and also the faston itself is formed differently. You'll find them much more difficult to remove because they fit much tighther.

Also, the insulation on the terminal itself is Nylon on the aircraft terminals and Vinyl on the auto ones. This does make a good bit of difference, as the Nylon is much more durable, much less prone to cracking and all around better. A quick way to tell them apart aside from the additional sleeve is the color of the insulation. The poor/bad quality ones will have a very solid/opaque color and the nylon aircraft terminals will have a translucent / partially transparent shiny color that is much more pliable.

Last but not least is the material they are made of. Most auto type terminals are very thin or lightweight tin, or thin copper. The good aviation grade terminals are tin plated copper and much thicker than the auto ones, as well as having more "meat" on them. We buy these things 25,000 at a time to get the price down, but don't be fooled by buying the even cheaper ones available at auto parts stores.

Just my 2 cents after going through a couple hundred thousand of these ourselves!

Cheers,
Stein.
 
SteinAir said:
Just my 2 cents after going through a couple hundred thousand of these ourselves!

Cheers,
Stein.
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Do you guys do anything when you make connections as far as corrosion proofing the thing? I've heard of people putting some sort of goop or oil or something over the connections. Is this just total overkill?

Ever wonder why RV builders (myself included) are obsessed with corrosion proofing everything? You'd think I'd be able to stick two wires together without worrying about that :)
 
Connectors

OK a picture is beginning to form, how does this sound:
1. Crimped fast on connectors (aircraft grade) for power and ground buss connections
2. Gold plated pins (I assume crimped) for the (seemingly typical) DB25 connecters used for avionics (Dynon etc) and the allen trim servos
3. Crimped ring type connectors (again aircraft quality) for terminal blocks to connect such things as stick grip switches, landing lights, strobes.
4. Molex connectors for quick disconnects (wingtip electrics etc) if necessary

I notice also that some people use in-line fuses versus fuse blocks and assume these can be done with fast-on connectors also.

Does this sound about right?
 
Do you guys do anything when you make connections as far as corrosion proofing the thing? I've heard of people putting some sort of goop or oil or something over the connections. Is this just total overkill?
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My Last job was dealing with sound systems for a 1A University Athletics Dept. Anything outdoors or having to do with the pools recieved a liberal blast of Caig contact cleaner When making crimp terminations I would always blast the freshly stripped wire with some of the preserveIt before inserting the wire in the terminal. All other connections would get a bi monthly treatment of Deoxit followed by Preservit. Pots get cailube. I have also used the deoxit/preservit combo to great effect in my clubs old 172 on the headset jacks.

Jeff
 
anti-oxidant paste

jcoloccia said:
Do you guys do anything when you make connections as far as corrosion proofing the thing? I've heard of people putting some sort of goop or oil or something over the connections. Is this just total overkill?
Click to expand...

I think what you are thinking of is anti-oxidant paste. I put this over any quick connects that would be exposed to the outdoors. You can get this at Home Depot- OX-Gard (OX-100). Cessna used a similar paste on the terminations of the aluminum battery cables on the Cardinal. That is why the Cardinal with its aluminum battery cable does not suffer the problems of Piper's aluminum battery cables.
 
Crimpers for different terminals

You can find the good PIDG insulated terminal crimper that Van suggests at Klein Tools. A website that sells this is "www.rimindustries.com". The crimper for the Molex/ D-subminiature pins can be bought at B & C,
www.bandc.biz/parts.html. Do not use the "oval" shaped cheap crimpers for anything except as a paper weight.
 
AeroElectric articles on the web

In addition to Bob Nuckolls' book he also has many reference articles on his web site. I found myself reading almost all his web articles one night. (How the time passes when you are having fun.) The articles are at http://www.aeroelectric.com/ARTICLES.HTML . A few articles relating to crimping and fast on connections are

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html

"FastOn vs. Ring Terminals . . . What's the Difference?"

Here is a critical review on methods of wiring including crimping vs. sodering and faston vs. threaded terminals and what Bob Nuckrolls' recommends.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html

Good reading.

Jonathan
 
Fast On

I suspect, that just as the name sugests,,,, that Fast-ON = FASTER-OFF in flight conditions.

I'd NEVER use one. PERIOD.

uk_figs said:
I have been reading the Aeroelectornics book in preparation for starting some wiring and notice it refers to "fast-on" crimped connectors which look a lot like the automotive spade connectors, is this what most people use for connection to power busses etc? Are these different than the automotive parts for the higher vibration environment of an aircraft?
Click to expand...

Of course, I might be wrong. Thankfully it won't be MY plane that has a failuremode experienced above.

Sprig
 
As Steve posted above, high quality versions of these connectors are not going to come loose accidentally. They are tight, tight, tight. I buy only the Tyco/AMP brand connectors (both FastOn and ring terminals), which are available from SteinAir, Digikey and other sources. I started with an AMP Pro Crimper II crimper and terminal kit from Digikey, and bought additional terminals from SteinAir. This combination is just a joy to use. Regardless of which type of terminal you choose, ring or FastOn, be sure and do a pull test for each terminal size/wire size combination.
 
Sprig said:
I suspect, that just as the name sugests,,,, that Fast-ON = FASTER-OFF in flight conditions.

I'd NEVER use one. PERIOD.

Of course, I might be wrong. Thankfully it won't be MY plane that has a failuremode experienced above.

Sprig
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite, actually. You're in a very, very, VERY small minority, as the overwhelming number of finished RVs (and probably many other homebuilts) are using fast-ons with no problem.

I believe when the above poster was talking about the cheapo terminals loosening up he was referring to the CRIMP loosening, not the spade connecting mechanism. In fact, he could have been talking about ring terminals loosening up.

Take a fish scale and see how much you will need to pull a fast-on to separate a connection. Better to use logic and known, testable facts than anecdotal evidence. And by the way, there are several certified aircraft out there now using AMP PIDGs, not including many of the new LSAs our there using them.

Ok, having said (typed) all of that, you must build your airplane in whatever way makes you sleep better at night.

Also, I would recommend you complete a signature, as it would provide some insight/weight to your posts on the forum.

Best,
 
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I noticed a cool thing about the Fast-on connectors as I was using them yesterday. The spades have a hole in the middle of them and if you look really close at the terminals, they have a little catch that pops into that hole when properly installed. Belt and suspenders. No way it's coming loose in flight.
 
Triple ditto....they aren't coming off and they grip tight enough to make a superb electrical connection. The ONLY thing I don't like about using them is if you're not careful in laying out your wiring on the terminal block, it can be easy to short things out by accident when working on them. I personally like to lay them out so the positive terminals are not too close to the grounds.

Then again I've worked on plenty where everything is right next to each other and never had a problem. I guess that's why I always disconnect the battery first :D
 
Let's do a quick analysis.

1. Let's assume that it takes 15 lbs force to remove a fast-on connector (it takes almost twice that). 15 lbf = 66.7N

2. Let's assume that the connector and the bit of unsupported wire after it have a mass of 100g. (Again very conservative--here on this planet that's almost .25 lbs of unsupported wire and terminal!)

3. Assuming we're not approaching the speed of light, F=m*a. Solving for acceleration (a), we have an acceleration required for removal of the Fast-On connector of 66.7N / 0.1kg=667 m/s^2, or 68.1 g's! Another thing to consider is that the acceleration would have to be in the same direction as the axis of the tab in order to cause a spontaneous disconnection. If the acceleration happens at 45 degrees to the tab axis, it'll take 96 g's to disconnect. ((68g)/sin(45deg)).

We're all free not to use FastOn connectors, but I don't think our planes or bodies will survive a large enough acceleration to cause one to depart its tab.

G
 
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Hail RAF Warrior Guy,

Guy Prevost said:
Let's do a quick analysis.

1. Let's assume that it takes 15 lbs force to remove a fast-on connector (it takes almost twice that). 15 lbf = 66.7N
...
Click to expand...

Can I add,

2. Lets Vibrate that connection at the natural resonance of the airframe.
3. Lets Thermally cycle each end of that connection for each and every day.
4. Lets Subject the connection materials to differing atmospheric pressures for every flight.
5. Lets Expose the connection to every airborne chemical for every flight.

Honest question follows:

Are these used anywhere on the Space Shuttle?
 
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Sprig said:
Hail RAF Warrior Guy,



Can I add,

2. Lets Vibrate that connection at the natural resonance of the airframe.
3. Lets Thermally cycle each end of that connection for each and every day.
4. Lets Subject the connection materials to differing atmospheric pressures for every flight.
5. Lets Expose the connection to every airborne chemical for every flight.

Honest question follows:

Are these used anywhere on the Space Shuttle?
Click to expand...


And then let's do the same for those little screw & ring terminals that are the "aircraft alternative" to Fastons. How will they fare under this test? Remember you're not trying to find a perfect connector - you're just trying to find an acceptable or best option.

I don't know whether Fastons are used on the Space Shuttle, but they ARE good enough for Cessna.

Dave
 
Dave_Boxall said:
And then let's do the same for those little screw & ring terminals that are the "aircraft alternative" to Fastons. How will they fare under this test? Remember you're not trying to find a perfect connector - you're just trying to find an acceptable or best option.

I don't know whether Fastons are used on the Space Shuttle, but they ARE good enough for Cessna.

Dave
Click to expand...
Dave:

You are correct. An acceptable or best option is what I was looking for.

I have both in my RV-6. I have only had ONE connection come lose after almost 9 years of flying. The connection was a screw lockwasher ring on a Mil Spec switch that cost me $20 USD ten years ago. The screw and lockwasher came with the switch. The ring was the AMP brand and type recommended by Bob. I now have 1,950 hours. I found the lose connection when checking my landing lights during my condition inspection in July 2006. The light on the left wing DID NOT work. The airplane had about 1,900 hours on the hobbs at that time. After replacing the bulb I started trouble shooting. Spent about 20 minutes tracing the wire back from the wing tip to the switch checking voltages at the connectors till it got to the switch.
 
Hail VAF Warriors,

Dave_Boxall said:
And then let's do the same for those little screw & ring terminals that are the "aircraft alternative" to Fastons. How will they fare under this test?
Click to expand...

I've NEVER personally seen one fail.

Stuff "Happens"; so it "could have been."

I personally will NOT build a modern aircraft with 1940's electrical connection technology.
 
RV6_flyer said:
I have only had ONE connection come lose after almost 9 years of flying. The connection was a screw lockwasher ring on a Mil Spec switch that cost me $20 USD ten years ago.
Click to expand...
Hmm, so with the ring terminal, when it fails to hold you get a loose wire and a loose screw floating around your airplane waiting for Murphy's Law to ensure it find the location where it can do the most damage.

If a Fast-on connecton fails, no loose parts!
 
Sprig said:
I personally will NOT build a modern aircraft with 1940's electrical connection technology.
Click to expand...
Why do I have the nagging feeling that's what the Lancair and other composite guys are saying about us aluminum RV builders? :D
 
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Why do I have the nagging feeling that's what the Lancair and other composite guys are saying about us aluminum RV builders?
Click to expand...
Nope,
My new composite is full of fast ons as is my F1,

I have yet to have vibration, dust Gs, chemicals or Murphy cause a fast on to fail. Now of course that is after only 3 years and 500 hours.

I have had several rings connectors come loose and they were promptly changed to fast ons.

I do not think given their record that I will copy any technology from the space shuttle.
 
Sprig said:
I personally will NOT build a modern aircraft with 1940's electrical connection technology.
Click to expand...
Sprig,

First of all, the FastOn connectors are not 1940s technology, they are the best solution for the price using today's technology. You can probably find something that is superior, but not anywhere near the price. Regarding what is used on the Space Shuttle, I should remind you that we have spent billions and billions of dollars on the Space Shuttle, so whatever they might be using for connectors, I would not be suprised if their solution would not be viable for my kit. I spent 4 years in the Air Force working on nuclear weapons, so I have seen connectors that will never come off, but at $150 a pop, and 6 ounces per connector, none of these will make it into my airplane.

Bob Nickolls recommends FastOn connectors because they do not come loose, and he thinks they are better than ring terminals, because nuts do come loose. Bob has worked in the avation industry designing electrical systems for something like 40 years, so he has had a fair amount of experience with these types of connectors. Having experimented with the FastOn connectors, myself, I tend to trust him on this.

BTW, do not discount the quality of FastOn connectors based upon what you have seen in an auto parts store. I recommend that you actually buy a few of these from Stein and see what a quality piece of technology the good ones actually are. Also, go to Bob Nicholls website and look at some of his examples. Always good reading.

Regarding the use of 40s technology, does this mean you will not use any round gauges, Lyco engines, or a tail wheels on your airplane? When you start building your airplane, then please keep us informed, as a lot of us would probably be interested in what you come up with.

Cheers,
Tracy.
 
I was actiually referring to the 70 year old metal technology vs. composite technology rather than Fast-Ons. I have them through out my plane, as well as the Skyhawk I fly regularly!
 
Yank On it One Time!

If I had had any doubts about my decision to go with 'Lectric Bob's suggestions for FastOns and blade fuse blocks, they would have disappeared the first time I placed a FastOn on the "switched" bus and then decided to move it to the "always hot" bus - Kee-rist, I had to pull on that thing so hard I thought the fuse black might depart the structure !! :eek:

Two years and 135 hours and NO FastOn problems so far. Perfection? Perhaps not, at least in the world of theory. More than adequate, and practical? You betcha. And whatever way you go, attention to process control, quality components, and thoughtful routing of components are the key items - whether post and nut, FastOns, or whatever....
 
Fast-On at Aircraft Spruce

Anyone tried ordering PIDG terminals from Aircraft Spruce? Their catalog/website descriptions baffle me. I just want to order the usual red, blue, and yellow terminals for 1/4" tabs, but the image, description, and sizing info make no sense to me.

M
 
foka4 said:
Anyone tried ordering PIDG terminals from Aircraft Spruce? Their catalog/website descriptions baffle me. I just want to order the usual red, blue, and yellow terminals for 1/4" tabs, but the image, description, and sizing info make no sense to me.

M
Click to expand...

Yes, I have. You want the .250 Style "A". Then the correct AWG.

I prefer to get the electrical stuff from Stein. He's specializes in that kind of stuff and will answer questions if you have them.
 
apkp777 said:
I prefer to get the electrical stuff from Stein. He's specializes in that kind of stuff and will answer questions if you have them.
Click to expand...

Me too, but I hate to place an order for a few terminals from Stein when I need a bunch of stuff from Spruce.

Aside from the insurance companies and accessory supply houses, I'd say two of the biggest beneficiaries of any homebuilt aircraft project are FedEx and UPS!

M
 
Burned terminal

I've got Fast-on's and never had a hint of anything coming loose in 600+ hours. However, last weekend I had my fuse block open and my hangar mate noticed that the insulation on the connector for the strobes was charred. We turned on the strobes and the connector got very hot, although the wire a couple of inches away did not.

Apparently I did not get a good crimp on this particular connector, although it passed the pull-test (even after the insulation burned off). Not sure why, but something to watch for.
 
Hello everyone,
I am from Tyco Electronics presently working on already started 9A. If enough people are interested I could have one our smaller Chicago distributors put a kit together to include RBY PIDG Terminals and a commercial ratchet crimp hand tool called ProCrimper works just like the T-Headed aircraft certified tool at 1/6th the priced... Plus it has changeable dies for pins and sockets.. A couple of you respond if there is an interest and I'll check into it and come back to provide contact information...
 
Fully Insulated FastOns

Does anyone know where you can get the fastOns that are fully insulated in plastic not just the crimped portion?

Thanks

Peter
 
Mark C. said:
Hello everyone,
I am from Tyco Electronics presently working on already started 9A. If enough people are interested I could have one our smaller Chicago distributors put a kit together to include RBY PIDG Terminals and a commercial ratchet crimp hand tool called ProCrimper works just like the T-Headed aircraft certified tool at 1/6th the priced... Plus it has changeable dies for pins and sockets.. A couple of you respond if there is an interest and I'll check into it and come back to provide contact information...
Click to expand...

Marc,

Fabian at Affordable Panels used to sell just such a kit, complete with a plastic case to keep it all organized. (I?m not sure if he is still in business anymore.) It had almost every connector I needed to do my -9, except knife connectors and I only used them because I wanted to try 'em. It was well worth the cost and although I have refilled it (a couple of times), I still use it. Well worth the little bit of extra cost, IMHO, and I would always recommend that kit to new builders.
 
electrical kit

Mark C. said:
Hello everyone,
I am from Tyco Electronics presently working on already started 9A. If enough people are interested I could have one our smaller Chicago distributors put a kit together to include RBY PIDG Terminals and a commercial ratchet crimp hand tool called ProCrimper works just like the T-Headed aircraft certified tool at 1/6th the priced... Plus it has changeable dies for pins and sockets.. A couple of you respond if there is an interest and I'll check into it and come back to provide contact information...
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in an electrical kit like this.
 
Mark C. said:
Hello everyone,
I am from Tyco Electronics presently working on already started 9A. If enough people are interested I could have one our smaller Chicago distributors put a kit together to include RBY PIDG Terminals and a commercial ratchet crimp hand tool called ProCrimper works just like the T-Headed aircraft certified tool at 1/6th the priced... Plus it has changeable dies for pins and sockets.. A couple of you respond if there is an interest and I'll check into it and come back to provide contact information...
Click to expand...

Interested.
 
N787KV said:
Does anyone know where you can get the fastOns that are fully insulated in plastic not just the crimped portion?

Thanks

Peter
Click to expand...

I heat shrink all mine, but Home Depot sells a Raychem fast-on that is pretty high quality. It has a plastic shell. I used a few of these so far.
 
Mark C. said:
Hello everyone,
I am from Tyco Electronics presently working on already started 9A. If enough people are interested I could have one our smaller Chicago distributors put a kit together to include RBY PIDG Terminals and a commercial ratchet crimp hand tool called ProCrimper works just like the T-Headed aircraft certified tool at 1/6th the priced... Plus it has changeable dies for pins and sockets.. A couple of you respond if there is an interest and I'll check into it and come back to provide contact information...
Click to expand...

I have the ProCrimper, purchased as a kit from Digi-Key, and it is very nice indeed. The stock kit components were an assortment, not all PIDG, but Stein took care of that in a hurry. With the ProCrimper and actual Tyco/Amp PIDG terminals, it's pure crimping pleasure. Highly recommended.
 
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