Warning - No ABC fire extinquishers allowed

I had an interesting discussion with a service rep for fire extinquishing equipement at the FBO today.

His exact words - Under no circumstances should you have an ABC type anywhere around an airplane. BC is OK. Reason, the "A" portion contains ammonium phosphate and it will digest aluminum and circuit boards in a matter of minutes. As a matter of fact you can't get it off the surface fast enough to prevent the corrosive effects. He recently had seen a Lear totaled because an ABC was released in the cabin.

My reason for posting this - every new engine start has folks standing around with extinquishers. Imagine a little fire and 3 folks doing an incredible job putting out the fire, only to find out that they just totaled the plane before it ever flew. All electronics and the aluminum around the firewall goes bye bye.

BTW - I checked my extinquisher in the hanger. Guess what - ABC. Guess Again - It's not around anymore.

Thanks!

I've been keeping a big A:B:C unit on the shop wall. Looks like I'll be headed to Lowes tonight.

Or if you can stand the sticker price nothing beats the Halon units...9lb one will run you about $150 on ebay. Thye work very well and aren't corrosive to anything on the aircraft. Lungs may be a different story.

The airplane has a Halon and the shop has a big C02. Which are good for B and C. Also like to keep a bottle of water in the airplane for an A type fire. Back in the old days, old job. The fire marshall required us to have an ABC. It was just a wall ornament.

Type BC not stocked at Lowe's etc.

Went through this situation last year with our airport manager. All tenants were required to have a minimum 10lb Type BC. After searching for a Type BC at retail outlets, I soon found that they only stock Type ABC. Called my local fire & safety shop, and they fixed me right up. For Type BC extinguishers, save yourself some time and go directly to a fire and safety supplier... they will also tag it for you.

Edit: I stand corrected... Lowe's does sell small size BC extinguishers (3lb)

Lowe's etc. do have BCs units but only in the very small sizes (e.g. 3lbs.)

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be talking to the airport manager on Monday.

I'm gonna check again

Special Delivery said:

Edit: I stand corrected... Lowe's does sell small size BC extinguishers (3lb)

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I was just shopping at the DIY stores to buy my son a couple of ABCs for his shop. Did notice that BCs were on the shelf but they were still dry chemical units. As you may notice, the dry chemical units are rated lowest in A vs their BC rating.
(IE 2A, 10BC)
Before buying a small BC, I am going to make sure that the lack of A rating is from chemistry difference and not simply small size or volume of that corrosive chemical warned in previous threads.

Yes I noticed that Lowe's etc. "B:C" units were also dry chemical, but it is a different dry chemical.

The small B:C units are simply sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) with some trace additives, whereas the A:B:C units contain the ammonium phosphate that was warned against.

Also, the small dry B:C unit cylinders are made of...wait for it...Aluminum!

Web, This is a double edge sword. While your assessment of ABC dry powder fire extinguishers and electronics is correct, as an old firefighter putting out the fire is paramount to saving equipment at the time. If the fire continues the electronics are toast anyway. (pun intended) Halon would certainly be the 1st choice for fighting fires in an airplane and that is why I have one in each plane.

Doesn't have to reach

Geico266 said:

Web, This is a double edge sword. While your assessment of ABC dry powder fire extinguishers and electronics is correct, as an old firefighter putting out the fire is paramount to saving equipment at the time. If the fire continues the electronics are toast anyway. (pun intended) Halon would certainly be the 1st choice for fighting fires in an airplane and that is why I have one in each plane.

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Good pun - and getting the fire out is paramount. I wanted to share with others that there would be no equipment saved if type "A"" was used. The fire doesn't have to reach the electronics for them to be toast if an A type is used. If a BC was used, the airplane has a good chance of being salvaged. I couldn't bare the thought that somebody put out a fire on a new plane during first engine start and totaled it before it flew. Notice the extinquishers around on the videos of new starts. Needless to say, the rep got my attention when he told me a multi million dollar Lear was totaled from an ABC that was released in the cabin. My plane is not a multi-million dollar bird but it's priceless to me. I was ignorant to this before yesterday. Now I know and thought it worthy of passing on.

Halon is one of the best choices for prize toys. The service rep did mention there is a new inert type BC that is harmless to surfaces but does a great job. That is also the type he has been installing in hospital operating room suites because it is also non-toxic to people and now required by JCAHO.

That's one of the best things about this site. Info share has saved a lot of trouble and $$ for a lot of folks out there. It's also cost them some $$ due to new ideals and mods (BIG LOL).

I just had a thought. I wonder if someone has an old ABC that they would be willing to donate to science and test it out on some junk pieces of aluminum to see how long it takes to destroy the integrity of the metal. Mythbuster style.

Fire ext-r-me

This is what I do for a living. Our shop has alum all over the place and it does cause corrosion over a LONG period of time. The problem with ABC is when it gets where you can't get it out,seams ect. It ain't gona hurt your alum panels after cleaning at all. It is death on electronics. And a BC/Halon is better although I can't believe you can keep a high enough concentration on advanced fires in an airy cabin to be sure, I could be wrong. But Halon keeps the oxygen from the fire and a little cooling and if it is hot enough and the concentration falls you got a fire again. A sales man is the last guy i'
m gona believe,firemen of which I am from a third generation fire family are very good at putting out fires, salesmen sale product. They aren't fire protection engineers, firemen or fire maintenance guys. I use BC in the plane ABC for airport compliance and CO2 for real use in the hanger, co2 is great but its in a steel bottle and is heavy,I swear if the ABC bottles are not alum. its a metal I'm not aware of. If Halon is in a high enough concentration to keep out a fire it will also put you to sleep, takes couple minutes but we have to leave Halon tests after awhile,thats what the fire eng. said anyways. Gene

gbumga said:

If Halon is in a high enough concentration to keep out a fire it will also put you to sleep, takes couple minutes but we have to leave Halon tests after awhile,thats what the fire eng. said anyways. Gene

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True statement. Halon is non-toxic in acute doses, but does displace oxygen and thus makes for an oxygen-deficient atmosphere which does not support life. In a halon-rich environment where you've put out the fire, at roughly sea level atmospheric pressure you'll have about 90 seconds of useful conciousness, which should be used to get out of the area. At altitude in a closed cockpit discharge scenario, it will be considerably less - depending on the altitude. An oxygen system that supplies secondary oxygen will help, especially if you can boost the amount of oxygen supplied above the standard amount needed for normal use at that altitude.

The critical thing to remember in a halon (or CO2) atmosphere is that it won't kill you quickly - take care of the immediate firefighting need, and get out before your body runs out of oxygen and you become a statistic. You've realistically got a good 30 seconds to do something about the fire, and then you'd better be on the move out of the area to clear air.

opps I was wrong

ABC are steel bottles,dang. oh well. Gene

Most FBOs use Purple K dry chemical extinguishers.

When I was a flight instructor we had a DA-40 catch fire after the brakes were overheated while taxiing. The stuff made a huge mess, but after the cleanup and repairs (including a new wing) the aircraft was flying again.

Check this:

Air Transport Newsletter, by Ronald Horn, Nov./Dec. 1983, "Class A-B-C Extinguishers Damage Aircraft"

"The A-B-C extinguishers have excellent fire-fighting capability, but the mono-ammonium-phosphate chemical agent melts and flows when it comes into contact with heat. This is how it gets its Class A rating. This chemical is highly corrosive to aluminum, and once it contacts hot aluminum and flows down into the structural cracks and crevices it cannot be washed out as the B-C dry chemical agents can.

"Once an A-B-C extinguisher is used on an airplane, it is necessary to disassemble the aircraft piece by piece and rivet by rivet to accomplish cleanup. Failure to do so will result in destruction of the aircraft by corrosion."

From: http://www.h3raviation.com/support_faq_2.htm

Assuming the horrible scenario of a house fire, and the fire department shows up and puts it out, would there be anything they would use that would be damaging to the airframe (foam, for example)? I can imagine something catching fire in the garage, where the fuselage is (rest is upstairs in a spare room, so unlikely to spontaneously ignite ).