Grand Rapids EIS 4000 questions

With help from people on this forum, Paul at Steinair, and GRT Tech help I have collected the following answers to my original questions.[/

I'm planning on adding a EIS-4000 to my RV-8. SteinAir is trying to answer the following questions but I thought the quicker way would be ask this "august" group.

I'm trying to determine which additional sensors/senders I need.

1) Fuel pressure - I am currently using the Vans IE VFP50 Injected Transducer and IE VFP50 Pressure Gauge For Injected Engines. Can I use that transducer with the EIS 4000 or do I need to buy the GRT transducer LPS-02 for $35? The current guage goes to 50 psi but the LPS-02 shown on GRTs website only shows 0 to 25 psi. Is that a problem?
You must use either the HPS-02 ($25) or HPS-SS-01 ($135).

2) Fuel Level - I have a standard Vans fuel level gages IE VFL15 that get their signals from IE F-385B and IE F-385C senders. Do I need anything else for this EIS to display data from these fuel level senders?
If you have float type senders the EIS will work fine. If you have capacitance type senders you need two converters which cost $150 each.

3) Fuel Flow - Please verify that I can add fuel flow later by just adding the FloScan module and wiring it up.
You can do this for the cost of the module ($375) without sending the EIS to GRT. They send you a code to activate the feature via software.

4) Current measurement - I will add this later but want to make sure the unit comes ready for this and I will only have to add and wire in the CS-01 Current Sensor +/- 100 AMP for $60.
This can be added at any time simply by buying and installing CS-01 Current Sensor for $60.

5) Tachometer - I currently use a cable-driven tachometer. Do I need any other sensor to read RPM with the EIS-4000?
As someone else posted, you can just sense RPM off one p-lead, or use a switch to sense from either p-lead. You can also order from Vans either a IE VTACHGEN2 or a IE VTACHGEN12 for $86 or $88 respectively. The "12" model is for engines that have a vacuum pump installed. It includes a 12" cable to mount if away from the tach drive. Apparently there is not enough room to mount the sensor right on the drive if a vacuum pump is installed.

What I know I need is:

$900 RT EIS 4000P (includes probes) for a Lyc 4 cyl IO-360
$60 Manifold Pressure - my MAP guage is a direct reading type so I will need the MAP-01 Manifold Pressure Sensor 0-31 in Hg

Thanks,

John

John,

Here are some answers to your questions:

Bubblehead said:

3) Fuel Flow - Please verify that I can add fuel flow later by just adding the FloScan module and wiring it up.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, its not as simple as adding the sensor. From what Carlos @ GRT told me, there is software to be upgraded as well in the EIS.

Bubblehead said:

4) Current measurement - I will add this later but want to make sure the unit comes ready for this and I will only have to add and wire in the CS-01 Current Sensor +/- 100 AMP for $60.

Click to expand...

Yup...its that simple.

Bubblehead said:

5) Tachometer - I currently use a cable-driven tachometer. Do I need any other sensor to read RPM with the EIS-4000?

Click to expand...

GRT can get its tach information from one of the mags. However, when you do a mag check, the RPM's will go to 0 on the EIS for the mag you turned off. You can put a switch in so you can choose which mag the EIS gets it tach from. If you have an EMAG or PMAG, you can get a "all the time" tachometer signal from one of them. There is also the option of using the "IE VTACHGEN 2" or "IE VTACHGEN 12" transducer from Van's which gives the EIS the tach signal from the tach drive on the engine. This is the mag independent solution.

I installed an EIS-4000 instead of a panel full of Van's gauges a while ago - one of the best panel decisions I have made!

Bubblehead said:

1) Fuel pressure - I am currently using the Vans IE VFP50 Injected Transducer and IE VFP50 Pressure Gauge For Injected Engines. Can I use that transducer with the EIS 4000 or do I need to buy the GRT transducer LPS-02 for $35? The current guage goes to 50 psi but the LPS-02 shown on GRTs website only shows 0 to 25 psi. Is that a problem?

Click to expand...

The only way to tell for certain if they are compatible is to measure the voltage/pressure curve, somehow I suspect they will not be the same, the two senders don't look the same. I suspect you will have to buy the GRT transducer. There is also a high pressure transducer (HP-SS-01), the FI fuel pressure can go over 25psi, so you need an hp transducer.

Bubblehead said:

2) Fuel Level - I have a standard Vans fuel level gages IE VFL15 that get their signals from IE F-385B and IE F-385C senders. Do I need anything else for this EIS to display data from these fuel level senders?

Click to expand...

Don't know, I left my analogue gauges in.

Bubblehead said:

3) Fuel Flow - Please verify that I can add fuel flow later by just adding the FloScan module and wiring it up.

Click to expand...

I thought you could, perhaps the box has to be returned for a software update when the FF sensor is added?

Bubblehead said:

5) Tachometer - I currently use a cable-driven tachometer. Do I need any other sensor to read RPM with the EIS-4000?

Click to expand...

Agree with bullojm1, bear in mind you have to set up the box to read the correct number of pulses per rev.

Pete

Bubblehead said:

I'm planning on adding a EIS-4000 to my RV-8. SteinAir is trying to answer the following questions but I thought the quicker way would be ask this "august" group.

I'm trying to determine which additional sensors/senders I need.

1) Fuel pressure - I am currently using the Vans IE VFP50 Injected Transducer and IE VFP50 Pressure Gauge For Injected Engines. Can I use that transducer with the EIS 4000 or do I need to buy the GRT transducer LPS-02 for $35? The current guage goes to 50 psi but the LPS-02 shown on GRTs website only shows 0 to 25 psi. Is that a problem?

Thanks,

John

Click to expand...

Ask Grand Rapids for the industrial FP sender (stainless steel). Its much smaller and more accurate. I had to replace my FP sender with this one due to indication errors. Never had a problem since. I seem to recall it does cost about $100.

Steve
7A

I have added answers to the original questions in the original post at the top of this thread!

My thanks to all who posted and helped me figure this out. I've ordered through Stein the unit + current sensor + fuel flow system + fuel pressure transducer. I'm on vacation and holiday next week so am hoping it arrives this week.

Fuel Injected Fuel Flow with EIS

Has anyone used an EIS 4000/6000 with a Fuel Injected engine? Are you using the Fuel Flow Option? Once you calibrated the two fuel flow sensors (Goes in and Goes out) were you happy with the result?

Thanks,
Michael

sonex293 said:

Has anyone used an EIS 4000/6000 with a Fuel Injected engine? Are you using the Fuel Flow Option? Once you calibrated the two fuel flow sensors (Goes in and Goes out) were you happy with the result?

Thanks,
Michael

Click to expand...

yes. yes. yes.

sonex293 said:

Has anyone used an EIS 4000/6000 with a Fuel Injected engine? Are you using the Fuel Flow Option? Once you calibrated the two fuel flow sensors (Goes in and Goes out) were you happy with the result?

Thanks,
Michael

Click to expand...

Other than the Subies, the injected engines are treated the same as the carb'd engine....one line. If you have an AFP system with a purge valve installed, you don't need to put a fuel flow sensor on that line, because it's such a miniscule amount of fuel it would be a waste of time/money in my opinion. I had a Fuel Flow on my AEIO-360 for years, and it was accurate down to a tenth of a gallon for a full tank. Others are seeing similar results. We've had many, many customers install these with injected engines and they work great with a single fuel flow sensor installed.

Cheers,
Stein

Ditto what Stein said on fuel injected fuel flow. My Rocket had a purge valve but I used just one FF sensor and it was accurate across 52 gallons to .1 or .2 gallons.

However I just learned that my current project (bought from someone else) has capacitance fuel senders. What are these modules needed from GRT?

With the capacitance fuel senders, you'll need to order a little "converter box" from GRT - one for each tank that converts the capacitance signal into what the EIS will read.

Cheers,
Stein

My notes say that the capacitance converters are $150 each! Pretty steep! Check with GRT or Stein to verify.

FYI, my FI engine does not have the purge line, although it does not look like it would matter much if it did.

Dynon sells capacitive-to-resistive converters for $50 each. I wonder if these will work with the GRT EIS?

EIS Backlit?

I haven't powered up my EIS4000 yet. Can someone tell me if it is back lit for night ops or do I need an external light on it?

Thanks

Bevan

Bevan said:

I haven't powered up my EIS4000 yet. Can someone tell me if it is back lit for night ops or do I need an external light on it?
Thanks
Bevan

Click to expand...

It's backlit.

questions for EIS-4000 installers

I started installing the EIS-4000 today. EGT and CHT probes had slaready been removed along with the exhaust pipes as part of the cylinder changeout. Started pulling out the CHT and EGT extensions along with the CHT and EGT gages and slector switches.

I also started looking at swapping oil temp, oil pressure and fuel pressure sensors, and locating and mounting the current sensor and manifold pressure sensor. The plane originally had regular Vans gages and sensors, and I am putting in the Grand Rapids supplied sensors.

Here are some questions for those who have boldly gone before me. I'll call GRT if necessary on Monday to get their answer to #1 too.

1) oil temp sensor - it will be difficult to get the exisiting one out because of the proximity to a motor mount and the hose that goes from the crankcase to the oil pressure sensor. I can remove the hose and fitting but I don't know it there is room to get a wrench on the sensor.

Can the Vans temperature sensor be used? Do I use the same values for offset and scale as for the GRT supplied sensor?

2) current sensor - where did you physically locate the sensor and how did you mount it to the airframe?

3) manifold pressure sensor - where did you mount it?

Thanks
John

Hi John,

1) I THINK that I used the temp sensor that came on my engine, but that was a few years back, so I may be remembering it wrong.

2) My current sensor is the ring-type - I simply put it on the main bus feed from the alternator, and secured it to the wire bundle with wire ties - it is behind the firewall, along the left longeron on mine.

3) I mounted it behind the forward baggage compartment, on the bulkhead forward of the panel. Ran tubing back to it - I don't thin kit is recommended for FWF use.

Paul

Oil Temp sensor

Ironflight - I PMd you on this but found the posting. Just for everyone's info I am posting GRT's info on the oil temp sensor subject. Could you check next time the cowling is off to see if you have the GRT sensor (two wire) or the Vans/Lyc sensor (1 wire)?

To All Intrepid Birdmen of the air and ground:

I am back at the installation of the EIS and took a good look at installing the GRT supplied oil temperature probe. Unfortunately there is no room between the motor mount and the existing sensor to get the old one out! I would have to get an engine hoist and support the engine and take out one mount and loosen the others to swap these sensors.

Here is the text of an email exchange I had with Tim Martin of GRT.

--------------------------------
Hi Tim,

I think I have everything figured out except the following. It is impossible to get to the oil temperature probe on my Lyc IO-360. It is completely blocked by the motor mount and short of taking the mounts loose and one mount out I cannot change that sensor. Can I use the stock one that goes with the stock Vans oil temp gage? According to the documentation, the sending unit is a 0 to 240 degree input, 33 to 240 ohm output sender.

Thanks,

John Dalman
Elburn, IL

Hi John,
No you cannot use that sender, it is not compatible with the EIS.
Sorry about the bad news. Contact Sandy if you wish to get a new sender.
Again, sorry.
Tim

----------------------
Has anyone else had this problem and what was the solution? I need to get this wrapped up to take the -8 to SnF for possible sale and this is one of the remaining obstacles.

Thanks,

John

Hi john,

Saw your PM, and it got me to look at the pictures I happened to have handy - the ones on this computer were from my engine build session at Mattituck. From what I can see, it clearly left the build area without an oil temperature sender, and since I have no memory of stumbling across a spare sensor in my parts bins, nor of having GRT omit the senor in the package, logic demands that I got a sensor with my GRT system and installed it on the engine. Therefore...I must correct my previous post and believe that I have the GRT sensor installed (screwed in before the engine was hung, I am sure - I took the easy way out on all rear case accessories).

Paul

Thanks for the amplification, Paul. That helps a lot. It looks like I'll have to get an engine lift and pull the top motor mounts out to get at that sensor.

There are 2 oil temp sensors, a 2 wire and a 1 wire, both are supplied by GRT but they are different and require the instrument be properly programmed. One has real low resistance the other real high resistance.

I swapped out the Subaru programmed instrument for a Lycoming programmed unit but the Lycoming unit came through with Subaru soft ware. I about went nuts trying to figure out why oil temperature did not work and finally tried an old Subby 2 wire sensor and it worked. Sandy figured out what was going on and promptly sent the correct instrument with a Lycoming sensor. I know all this sounds confusing but we got it straightened out as she insisted I should have a Lycoming programmed instrument with the proper sensor.

I say all this because I do not believe the VANS sensor will work with GRT. It is designed for whatever indicator they sell. They can have much different resistance and if it does not match what the instrument is programmed for, it won't work.

The sensors were installed and removed several times with the engine mounted but it was a tight squeeze. It can be done. As I recall, it took a 7/8" socket for the Lycoming 1 wire sensor. The other 2 wire job requires a reducer adaptor as it does not match the case hole.

Bubblehead said:

Thanks for the amplification, Paul. That helps a lot. It looks like I'll have to get an engine lift and pull the top motor mounts out to get at that sensor.

Click to expand...

Could be - but make sure before going to all that work. All of the accessory case drawings in the back of the Lycoming 0360 Operators Manual show the temp sensor located directly between and slightly above the magnetos.

Can't find them

bullojm1 said:

Dynon sells capacitive-to-resistive converters for $50 each. I wonder if these will work with the GRT EIS?

Click to expand...

Mike or anyone else,
I can't find the above mentioned converter on Dynon's web site. Can someone direct me to it? Can it be used to allow Vans capacitance tank senders to communicate with conventional resistive gauges? By conventional, I mean Vans, Stewart Warner or Mitchell gauges.
Charlie Kuss
PS I found the info for ordering the Dynon converter module. It is called:
Capacitance to Voltage Converter for Vans Capacitance Plates #100654-000 @ $50 each