What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Good Success with 3.8L Ford V6 in Oz

rv6ejguy

Well Known Member
I received a fax from Ron Slender in Kingaroy, Oz about his experiences with a Ford V6 in a Pawnee glider tug a couple days ago.

The conversion was made 10 years ago and he compiled some detailed stats over the last 10 years of operation. Their luck with Lycoming 540s was poor in this severe application so they were looking for a cheaper alternative. Many, many cracked jugs were replaced even with careful handling on the descents.

Surprisingly, with the belt PSRU, climb performance was almost identical on the dynoed 195hp V6and they are able to get two more tows per hour with the liquid cooled engine because they can descend with power right off to idle with the Ford. This mirrors other experiences in Oz with an LS1 powered Pawnee tug from last year.

They have had zero failures now in 10 years of towing and the cost savings have been a phenomenal $100K in that period. Fuel consumption has averaged 34 L/hr. vs, 58 to 60 for the 540 which is run full rich in the climb to keep EGTs and CHTs below redline.

Rebuild cost on the V6 is currently $3500 and a brand new long block is $7750.

These Aussies have obviously done a very good job on this conversion. Bravo.:)

Pretty good case for a geared auto engine here.
 
That's impressive! Any idea on # of hours on the conversion? Obviously, this isn't a case of having just a couple of hours on something and claiming "all is great!":)
 
...Any idea on # of hours on the conversion?
Any idea what the difference in maintenance hours between the two engines is?

(I would hope the V6 takes fewer hours per year of maintenance but you never know until you ask.)
 
Ron gave no stats on hours flown but it sounds like a busy glider club so I'm guessing lots. I will drop him an E-mail to ask for that data. Maybe there is hope for us poor auto power souls yet.:)
 
Great validation, Ross...

....on this engine/drive. Is it the Belted Air unit or one of similar design? Hours between belt changes?

Regards,
 
I'm sending Ron an E-mail this morning asking for more data. I believe they are running a belt drive of their own design.
 
A Detailed Reply (Long) Part1

This is the reply I received from Dave Sharples who did much of the work on these glider tug conversions:

Firstly the 3.8 liter Ford V6 has done remarkably well, it first flew in 1992, we set the time between o?hauls to 1000 hours as it was revving out at 4800 rpm full throttle which is twice the speed of the 0-540 which it replaced. We run on a 2:1 ratio so at that speed it swings the McCauley 8452 prop at the same static rpm as the Lyc which was 2400, so the performance was the same. Fuel consumption dropped from 60 liters per hour (Lyc) to 34 with two extra launches per hour because of it?s faster letdown. Of course with the Lyc we have to be careful to avoid shock cooling as flying on the way up at relatively slow speeds around 60 knots gets the temps very high, then on letdown shock cooling occurs if the throttle is closed too quickly, we have cracked many pots. With liquid cooling we close the throttle immediately the glider releases and she is on the ground in no time. The coolant usually runs at max around 90 deg C (194 F) upon glider release the throttle is fully closed and as there is 15 liters of coolant to cool down it cannot happen quickly, when the temp reaches 70 C (160 F) the thermostat closes thus shutting of circulation.

As I said we limited the TIS to 1000 hours but at 900 hours it developed an oil leak at the timing case oil seal which requires removal of the engine so we decided to start the intended conversion to the LS1. (This will be # 3, one V6 and 2 LS1s)

The only defect experienced in flight was a broken valve spring that happened at 850 hours. That?s not too bad considering most of it?s life was at WOT sometimes on a long tow it may be there for 20 minutes or more. The V6 was carburetted using twin Su?s which were the only carbys that gave us equal fuel distribution throughout the entire range. The 3.8 liter V6 is a bit small for our operation and as I said worked very hard in getting the job done plus the problem of having several different pilots, many of them cowboys, not the usual private owner of a home built who rather ?pampers? his creation somewhat. So maintenance wise it has done remarkably well, an inspection of the bottom end revealed no measurable wear on crank journals at all, bearing clearances increased by .0005 ins. Bringing them up to .002 in, they were at a clearance of .0015 originally.

To try and get a bit extra power we fitted 1.8:1 roller rockers with heavier valve springs, this proved to be not a good idea as the cam bearings and timing chain suffered much wear, another example of how you create problems when deviating from manufacturer?s standard. Other than that it did remarkably well.

The re-drive was the old original Blanton one, terrible thing it was. At the first running period it failed at 10 hours, with modifications as things failed one at a time we got it to 20 hours then 50 then 100 finally not touching it at all in the last 300 hours, so there is not much left of it that is of ?Blanton? design. The two main problems we encountered were (1) keeping the bearings located into the drive shaft and (2) keeping the belt properly adjusted so as to keep it running central on the pulleys. The location of the bearings caused a lot of problems as they were located by ?Loctite?, no matter which high strength we used they eventually moved on the shaft. I eventually realized that we had the bearing inner cones ?loctited? onto a solid two inch prop shaft with the outer cones locked into the alumina housing, so with the expansion rate being so different between the alumina housing and the steel shaft they were locked onto something had to give, which happened to always be where the bearings were loctited onto the shaft and the inner cone then spun on the shaft.. So to alleviate this problem I made the outer cone of the bearing a sliding fit in the alumina housing grinding a small grove in the outer cone then locating it with a ball and grub screw to stop it turning but it could move laterally enough to compensate the expansion. To make things more positive I found an engineering bloke who ground a key way in the shaft and a shallow one in the inner bearing cone so turning was not possible should the loctite come loose. We had no more problems.

Then in #2 problem the belt always ran forward and rubbed on the front guide. This happened even when the pulleys were set exactly with an inside mic. So I then realized the horizontal line up must be out so I then put adjusting plates and screws allowing the pulley to be moved left or right and with trial and error we got it running very well. The pulleys and belt have been faultless, the belt manufacturers (Gates) said their belts had a shelf life of 10 years, so when the original had time up I replaced it, not worth the risk when only $160.00. Comparing the old belt with the new showed no visual wear, it was hard to pick which was which. The pulleys do have some slight wear but there is a lot more hours in them yet, don?t think I would positively say there is 2000 hours in them at this stage although Johnny Lindgren claims he has one now done 2000 hours which he recalled for examination and found no appreciable wear in belt, pulleys and bearings, says he sent it back as is for further use. I think proper anodisation is the answer here. I rather favour belt drives as they eliminate gyroscopic loads on the crank and there appears enough elasticity in the belt teeth to take out damaging impulses. Shame Johnny Lindgren has given it away he had a good product but I believe someone else has picked it up and will continue production of his excellent re-drives. What we have to realize here with glider tugs is that a landing and takeoff takes place about approx every 6 minutes there is a lot of time running on a dusty strip so this would not help the pulleys either, so 900 hours, mainly at 4800 RPM and not always in dust free air has been a good test one would think.
 
Part 2

Now for our second conversion. The LS1 is a great engine, the big advantage here is that it is left completely standard, no alterations or modifications required apart from engine balancing, I have found that anytime you modify or try to improve anything you cause a problem in another area. We use the LS1 GM issued PCM and have it expertly tuned which gives us over 250 HP at 4200 RPM, ideal for our type of operation. I was able to borrow a Lambda testing system so we could map out actual fuel ratios and temps at different throttle settings and at various altitudes, with this info the PCM tuning ?expert? was able to spec it up to suit our particular type of operation and conditions. Since its first start up it has done 300 hours with no defects at all apart from a malfunctioning throttle position sensor and a failed circuit breaker on the fuel system. We also had another engine failure which proved to be a loose wire on the ignition switch, since rectified. At about 250 hours I checked the belt ?free play? it had not moved a fraction during that time. We do the adjustment cold by having a blade of the prop horizontal and measuring the tip movement. We arrived at this measurement by giving it a small amount of play when as hot as it?s likely to get. Then when cold measuring that play again which comes out at 12 mm at the prop tip (84 inch Dia), so it can be adjusted to suit hot conditions even when cold.

The most important thing is to insure that air/fuel ratios are accurate and that the cooling system is adequate to prevent any chance of overheating. I?m sure most of the reported failures of auto engines in aircraft are caused by inadequate fuel settings and inadequate cooling systems not forgetting accurate tuning such as ignition timing etc.. If these items are properly set the chances of destroying an auto engine in an aircraft is very rare one should imagine. We, particularly in towing gliders, run at WOT for longer periods than any automobile even on the race track. How long does it take to run down the straight on a race track then throttle off for a short period. How long does a car on the highway run at WOT before shutting back, but as I said we can go for times at WOT for 20 minutes and at slow speeds therefore we need a much bigger cooling system than normal. Having spent some time on ensuring that all these points are properly adjusted is the main reason we have been successful with these engines. Some naysayers say that auto engines were never designed to run at high loads for long periods, my reaction is just where or when does an engine get ?tired? if the metal is stressed and weakens, does a spell make it recover, they seem to think it has a blood circulation like we have where a spell will replenish your energy, again I say if the air/fuel ratio is accurate and the coolant and oil temps are fully controlled with proper spark settings these engines cannot get ?tired? they go on for ever.

The LS1 easily out performs the V6 and can do two more launches per hour. (four more than the Lycoming) Although the fuel consumption is around 55 per hour the two extra launches still make it very economical when we get $30 per launch. The owner of this particular Pawnee is Michael Shirley who has been in contact with you, we used some of your ?Certified V Auto? comments when giving a seminar on the advantages of auto engines for glider tugs. We now have approval from the aviation authority here in Australia to apply for limited certification for dedicated glider tugs which will enable others to copy our designs into certified aircraft used for towing by virtue of the resultant STC..
 
Glider towing is awful duty for an engine - operation at WOT in climb, then diving to the deck at high airspeeds and no power. Repeat as necessary. The engines don't tend to last long.

This is an application where it makes total sense for a water cooled engine. Also, additional weight isn't that much of an issue for the Pawnee.

TODR
 
I agree

A most impressive result. Indeed this is an engine with a PSRU in a real airplane thats doing very heavy duty work.

Indeed the water cooling is great at preventing shock cooling that glider tugs and jump planes are plagued with.

Now of course an RV is a different animal..fast and low drag is diffrent to the "stimp Pulling" type work the tug is doing..Probably more like what my tractor does than my RV..:)

One thing caught my eye and I agree with...Auto engines can be great as long as they are not messed with..I suffered years of poor reliability from a well known Soob 1.8 conversion...the valve guides kept falling out..In fact the thing tried to kill me three times...It was always the after market valve guides that engine "rebuilder" didn't know how to install correctly.

So I was left to find my own solution which I eventually did and the package was then very reliable. Like everything under the hood though, The chain is only as strong as the weakest link and made me think very hard before chosing another auto conversion.

But the upside is it looks like there is some superb development work being done with autos and maybe one day we'll have a drop in replacement that will be engineered to the point where is outshines the lyc and is half the cost!

Good job..

Frank
 
I agree that many guys create problems for themselves installing non-stock parts like cams and springs especially. This comes up time and time again.

Generally the closer to stock it is, the more reliable. I just change pistons on my Sube for turbocharging- the rest is bone stock.
 
Back
Top