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RV-12 E-LSA / S-LSA manufactured by

Noel Simmons

Noel Simmons

Well Known Member
Before anyone jumps on legalities here, to be 100% upfront and legitimate I want everyone to know that I have had a phone conversation with the regional MIDO (Manufacturing Inspection District Offices) specifically about manufacturing RV-12's . The people I talked to have first hand knowledge of the RV-12. They have to call DC for confirmation and will get back to me.

Basically I want to manufacture RV-12s. In my opinion after flying lots of different aircraft and building 30 some aircraft, I feel that the RV?s are the best bang for the buck. I have a facility up and running that can, without the addition of personnel, build three RV-12s a month, and if / when my facility needs expanded the expansion will not stop current production.

To do this right and be wholly competitive in the saturated LSA market, Van?s will have to be right behind us. The FAA will have to ?legitimize? us. You, the RV-world will have to recognize us and support us. Together we can compete with Cessna and their Chinese assembled LSA, and everyone else.

With all that said, we need dealers, we need people to transport shiny new airplanes in their shiny new trailers to their new homes. We need advertising and its got to be slick. Most importantly, we NEED customers, we need customers from every state and every country.


Thank you
 
lets go!

Enthusiasm is the best friend you can have. Whats the price and whats the delivery schedule. I might can sell them if I can get my hands on them.
 
This presents an interesting possibility. If it is indeed legal for an outfit like yours to set up shop and manufacture 12s as SLSAs, then it is quite possible that literally dozens of similar operations could pop up and offer turn-key SLSA 12s. Competition has both good and bad effects on such a market. It could also been seen as a way for pro-build outfits, currently under the microscope, to "go legit."

Curious to find out what you hear from the MIDO office.
 
Noel Simmons said:
Your right, about what I don't know! I just watched the clip and I still don't see what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
About 1:30 into the clip Van says it will be certified as an SLSA, and initially will be offered as a kit. Fly away aircraft may be offered later based on market demand.
 
not so fast ...

During the Florida real estate boom a couple of years ago, some developers would only sell their new homes to families who intended to move in and not to investors. My wife worked for a builder then and employees were not sold homes for investments purposes, that is they had to hold them for so many years and could not "flip" them.

Van's Aircraft could protect their "investment" by refusing to sell to "pro builders", that is companies who wish to completely build their kits and sell them for profit. That way Van's Aircraft would be the sole producer of the "ready to fly" RV-12s. I imagine AMD, the company that builds finished Zenithair planes (such as 601XL) has an "agreement" with Chris Heintz of Zenithair that is "$ mutually beneficial $" to both parties. AMD has a link on the Zenithair web site not because of the benevolence of Zenithair I'm sure.

I guess there is a way for a company to build RV-12's from scratch and sell them, but that would take a company like GM or Ford to handle all the problems. :)

Van would be a poor businessman to let someone else profit from all his R&D. He's been in business too many successful years with too many great plane kits sold and assembled by average Joes to let that happen. Let's face it ... Van is on the ball!

I just wish Van all the sucess he and his company deserve for the development of the RV-12 and all his other planes.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
Zenair & AMD

Gentlemen there are very real reasons most kit manufactures have a separate entity build their aircraft. Even Van?s has a separate entity build there quick builds. Definitely Van?s must profit from their hard work, what I am doing is increasing their market, also known as selling more aircraft. I have absolutely no right to tell Van?s how to run their business, nor do I want to, that is not what this is about. I know that someone, some other than the Van?s entity will be manufacturing RV-12?s, as eluded to Van himself 1:30s into his sun & fun interview. IS that some other entity going to be Philippine entity or US. What would the difference be? Absolutely nothing. This is my point, this is why I want to build RV-12s with the full support of Van?s and the full support of the FAA and with the full support of the RV community. If I get the support that AMD gets from Zenair, the Van?s RV-12 will compete with Cessna.
 
My turn to try running Vans business----

JerryG150 said:
Van would be a poor businessman to let someone else profit from all his R&D. He's been in business too many successful years with too many great plane kits sold and assembled by average Joes to let that happen. Let's face it ... Van is on the ball!
Click to expand...

Interesting how we can get caught up in these discussions.

Vans is already making a profit from his R&D on his kits.

To set up a manufacturing line, and all the attendant issues that go along with it-------facilities, personnel, and dont forget the liability that the end product producer carries:eek:-----, Well, maybe Van isnt interested in going there. Or maybe he is------

(Wonder if Van reads VAF????)

Bottom line, IMHO, big difference in making kits, and making finished planes.

Vans has many years to prefect the kit production business, his success
in that realm is well established. To start airplane production will take them back to the starting line.
:D
I would love to see a US based company reach a deal with Vans to produce the 12 as a fly away plane------

Good luck to Noel----he is undertaking a pretty big thing here.
 
Word from the FAA

I got word back from the FAA. The Questions were
1. Is it legal for me to mass manufacture the Van's RV-12?
2. supporting documents

The answerer is YES, it is legal for me to manufacture the RV-12. The MIDO will help me through the hoops involved.

Now for the hard part, everything else!

Will call Van's today, I think they are the pivotal element in the successful fulfillment of this endevor.
 
Noel Simmons said:
I got word back from the FAA. The Questions were
1. Is it legal for me to mass manufacture the Van's RV-12?
2. supporting documents

The answerer is YES, it is legal for me to manufacture the RV-12. The MIDO will help me through the hoops involved.

Now for the hard part, everything else!

Will call Van's today, I think they are the pivotal element in the successful fulfillment of this endevor.
Click to expand...

Congrats! Good luck and keep us posted!

--Bill
 
Mel, so if Vans built a number of different configurations, could a builder the choose what they wanted from Noel???

If so, (this is really a stretch here), but any mix-and-match ???
 
If Van's built different configurations and certificated them as S-LSA, you could pick. No mix & match. Your E-LSA must exactly match an S-LSA airplane.
 
Mel said:
If Van's built different configurations and certificated them as S-LSA, you could pick. No mix & match. Your E-LSA must exactly match an S-LSA airplane.
Click to expand...

Hi Mel,

Once someone buys an exact copy as an E-LSA, is the owner allowed to change things?

Thanks,
Rusty
 
YES

After an aircraft has been certificated as an E-LSA it can be modified by the owner.
 
Noel Simmons said:
I got word back from the FAA. The Questions were
1. Is it legal for me to mass manufacture the Van's RV-12?
2. supporting documents

The answerer is YES, it is legal for me to manufacture the RV-12. The MIDO will help me through the hoops involved.

Now for the hard part, everything else!

Will call Van's today, I think they are the pivotal element in the successful fulfillment of this endevor.
Click to expand...

Quite happy, in fact very happy, to hear that I was wrong (I was wondering about the legality of this in the other thread) and that this is legal (at least for SLSA and I would assume therefore for ELSA).....

That opens up some very cool opportunities for, finally, a domestically-produced turn-key SLSA/ELSA.... and a Vans to boot....

LS
 
Here's what I see you needing in order to do this.
1. Have a license agreement with Vans to produce the aircraft.
2. You would need to build a prototype and test the prototype and develop manufacturing processes to concensus standards in your shop. I don't think you can just start building based upon Vans prototype.
3. Go through whatever hoops you need to to get final approval and certification of your sLSA.

Concerning the zodiac sLSA, zenair, zenith aircraft and AMD; it's all in the family so to speak. All were set up by Zenair and are run by the Heintz family, I'm sure to separate ownership of the aircraft designs, parts production, marketing, and final assembly to provide some measure of liability protection. Interestingly, they had previously licensed Czech Aircraft Works to produce an sLSA of the xl. The CAW version was completely different in many ways from the AMD produced version, and both were prototyped, tested, and approved as sLSA completely seperately, and are considered different aircraft.
 
By the way, I was talking to a tech yesterday and he advised that the FAA has just approved the S-LSA certification of the RV-12 Proof of Kit prototype.
 
This is all amazingly exciting news!!!

This is all exciting news for the RV12 and LSA in general. I am more than a little excited about it all. Even though I would rather build one for myself just for the fun of building, it is still exciting to hear all this information!!!

Forge ahead!!!
 
Any update on this?

lawspud said:
By the way, I was talking to a tech yesterday and he advised that the FAA has just approved the S-LSA certification of the RV-12 Proof of Kit prototype.
Click to expand...

I have not seen any further posts/news on this. Cannot find anything on sites that list approved S-LSAs and surprised Vans would not post something on their website shortly after this occurred. Anyone know anything more?
 
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