Alex,
Since the FAA has not blessed the -12 with regard to the 51% rule, I thought the only option was to build them as an S-LSA. In other words, carbon copies of Van's -12.
Has this changed?
Jim,Any information you've read previously was probably speculation or possibly misinformed opinion. The information on the brochure put out by Van's yesterday should have made clear that E-AB is not and has never been explicitly ruled out:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/12_snf_08.pdf
"From the information currently available, E-AB certification will still be allowed on an individual basis, but the burden of proof of meeting the 51% rule will be entirely the responsibility of the builder. Because the RV-12 kit has no pre-assembled parts, E-AB licensing should be almost certain."
"Waiting to build S-LSA" option doesn't make sense. Do you mean "Waiting to buy S-LSA"?
Just out of curiosity, what's the advantage of E-LSA? I thought it just allowed the manufacturer to build more than 50% of the kit for you (obviously not relevant in this case). I think it also puts a bunch of restrictions on the builder -- like no plan deviations. What if you want wheel pants but Vans doesn't include them? I must be missing something.
Hopefully this helps:
E-LSA:
1. Anyone with an LSA Repairman/Inspection rating can preform condition inspections. (Anyone who has completed the 16 hour course for the inspection rating. The 120 hour maintenance rating course is not necessary unless you are working on S-LSA's for hire.)
2. The airplane must be an exact copy of the original for certification, unless the kit manufacturer gives written permission that the change the individual builder did is acceptable.
3. Once the plane is certified as an E-LSA, any change is acceptable AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT PUT THE PLANE OUT OF LSA PARAMETERS.
4. If an alteration does put the plane out of LSA parameters, the airworthiness certificate is void and it will be very difficult if not impossible to have it re-certified.
E-AB
1. The builder must prove that they built the "majority" of the kit (what's currently in debate by the FAA).
2. The builder may apply for the repairman's certificate, and once that is received, they and/or any A&P may do the condition inspection.
3. LSA compliance is optional. However, if the airplane does not meet the LSA requirements, it must be flown by at least a private pilot with a current medical.
Jon,
If this is wrong please, someone correct me.
-Dave
Done.Yeah that's what I meant. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible for me to edit the poll now. Perhaps an admin could.
I still don't get it. If the kit you're building is not already designated E-LSA only, why would you want to restrict yourself to those limitations? Any old A&P can sign off an experimental, and with a Repairman Cert (which doesn't require 16 hours of training) you can even sign off your own. And if you happen to add a set of wheel pants that makes it go too fast, the plane doesn't become decertified, it just means you need a medical to fly it.
As far as Vans goes, the debate over the 51% rule is about quick-build kits. So far none is available for the 12. Trust me -- if your kit arrives as a box of pre-punched aluminum and a set of plans, no DAR who has ever built an airplane is going to question whether you met the 51% rule. Just keep a builders log.
There must be some subtle advantage I'm missing here, but since I'm just an interested bystander, I'll shut up now. I was just curious.
Since Van's SLSA will have no autopilot, navigation lights or landing lights won't there be "empty or useless holes or areas" in panel where those switches and fuses are already indicated but not yet available?
QUOTE]
On my plans for the wings, there are snap fairleads in the wings with instructions to tape a string in the wing at both ends. That leads me to believe that landing lights and nav/strobes are features that may be added in the future as options.
My wing kit is going together very fast. The plans are fantastic and assembly is so easy a trained monkey could do it. The only thing that takes any time at all is deburring and polishing the edges of the parts. Pop, pop, pop and it's done. By the way, the first kit includes a box of 10,000 Avex pop rivets.
1. Any chance we could sweet-talk you into showing a couple of photos?My wing kit is going together very fast... The only thing that takes any time at all is deburring and polishing the edges of the parts.
The only E-LSAs that can be used for hired training are the ones grandfathered in under 21.191(i)(1). And they can only do it until 1/31/2010. E-LSAs built from an E-LSA kit cannot be used for this.E-LSA can be rented to others or used in flight training ?
Jim,
Does the wing kit require a jig? thx
The wing does not require a jig. You only have to deburr the edges of the parts where they are cut out by the punch. The rivet holes are so clean that they do not appear to need deburring. They are final size. I'll post some pictures if I can figure out how to do it.
The wing does not require a jig. You only have to deburr the edges of the parts where they are cut out by the punch. The rivet holes are so clean that they do not appear to need deburring. They are final size. I'll post some pictures if I can figure out how to do it.
Hi Jim,
Thanks very much for the initial information. I'm kit 33 and looking to prep my workshop. Are you able to quote the length, breadth, and depth of the wing? I'm considering post-build storage.
Thanks...Keith
The spars are 13 feet long. All of the rest of the parts will fit in the back of a pickup truck.
I posted some pictures on Imageshack per Doug's suggestion. The link is: http://profile.imageshack.us/user/Jim_Cone/
...SNIP...
Jim, The image link does not work. Could you give it another try?
Cheers!
Hi Jim,
Thanks, the pictures work for me...just a bit small, can you post higher resolution pictures, pretty please ???
Maybe should start your own topic here on the RV12 forum, RV12 # 1 ????
Are the main spars anodized? They do not look the ussual golden colour.
Thanks,
Rudi
Very Strange,
I can't see Jim's pictures on my work PC - I get a blank screen like several others, but I can see them from my home PC. It must be a firewall or web cache problem.
GBLWY - please check you PMs.
Brooklands
Since Van's SLSA will have no autopilot...
I believe this is incorrect. Someone should ask Vans to be sure, but I think there will be an AP option for the RV-12.
Very Strange,
I can't see Jim's pictures on my work PC - I get a blank screen like several others, but I can see them from my home PC. It must be a firewall or web cache problem.
GBLWY - please check you PMs.
Brooklands