What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Helping to avoid military aircraft

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hal-san

Well Known Member
Patron
Here is new web site provided by AF to help us avoid military operations.

Air Force Website Can Prevent Air Mishaps for Civilian Pilots
Air Combat Command officials at Langley AFB are currently reaching out to private civilian pilots by publicizing a Web site designed to prevent mid-air collisions with military aircraft. The Web site, called www.seeandavoid.org, allows users to locate their flight path and determine how they can avoid flying through military operating areas.
 
Something I've never understood about MOAs is why they don't have automated broadcast systems (akin to AWOS) that pilots can tune to get MOA status.
 
......or at least list a frequency to check in on next to the charted MOA, on the chart. Instead of having to open the chart all the way to find the center freq associated with the MOA and then call them and they have no idea if it's hot or not???

It can't be that hard but every time I try to get UTD info on a MOA while flying I'm usually disappointed.

You guys have any luck with the frequencies on the back of a sectional??
 
I wish I could provide some more information on how to know whether the MOAs are active or not. Unfortunately, they don't know exactly whats going on there or not either. The "host" units control them and others schedule them for block times. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are always active.

So whats the best advice that I could give. If the MOA is near any training facility chances are it is always active, and I would recommend staying away. One, they are full of aircraft doing crazy things, and two, they are probably students and their heads are so on fire that they will never know you are there until after they hit you.

As for others, its hard to tell, i agree with that. In fact I like the idea of a AWOS type transmitter. Thats a heck of an idea. Unfortunately I am in a tanker guard unit, and ACC doesn't listen to us about anything. hahaha
 
Great idea!

Something I've never understood about MOAs is why they don't have automated broadcast systems (akin to AWOS) that pilots can tune to get MOA status.

An automated broadcast for each MOA is a brilliant idea. How can this idea be conveyed to those who can make it happen? The cost to institute this idea is probably less than the cost of losing an expensive fighter aircraft/pilot and GA aircraft/pilot.

One would think that it could easily be incorporated as part of the XM satellite radio service, so terrain blocking with a ground based system wouldn't be an issue. It is currently easy enough to obtain METAR's via XM, so why not MOA info?
 
You guys have any luck with the frequencies on the back of a sectional??

The frequencies work if you have a current chart. When flight planning, write the appropriate frequency where you can see it. The guy with the up to date info is the ARTC sector controller. I've never been ignored when calling and asking if such and such area is hot. There are huge MOA's around the mid west and to fly around them costs gas. Most of the time they are not in use, just give them a call. Last time I did the controller said the area had not been used in six months.

dd
 
give em a break if you can

...the boys need room to train. I avoid the MOA's whenever possible. Most likely they will know you are there way before you detect them, however they are pretty busy and are often looking over their shoulder in a 6 -9 G turn somewhere between 200 to 650 kts. No time to be the "unidentified bogey" in the middle of the engagement. They'll give you a wide berth if they see you, but... that being said, I'd like to apologize to the light twin that was transiting the Birmingham MOA from east to west in 1982. The F-4 that you saw pass in front of your nose going vertical low-to high was me. No Offense. I was merely demonstrating the performance charateristics that your tax dollars paid for. ;)
 
... that being said, I'd like to apologize to the light twin that was transiting the Birmingham MOA from east to west in 1982. The F-4 that you saw pass in front of your nose going vertical low-to high was me. No Offense. I was merely demonstrating the performance charateristics that your tax dollars paid for. ;)
I never did get those stains out. ;)
 
The F-4 that you saw pass in front of your nose going vertical low-to high was me. No Offense. I was merely demonstrating the performance charateristics that your tax dollars paid for. ;)

Dang! Sorry I missed it!
 
Eyes...

.......are what it takes. I've been living/flying in an MOA for 30 years now, flying ag and instructing. Smack dab in the middle of it with most of my customers farming in it as well. Yeah, I see a lot of top guns often but I just stay out of the cockpit and instruct my passengers to look as well.

Regards,
 
... that being said, I'd like to apologize . . . .

Well if it's time to come clean, my apologies to the kind soul at Soar Minden who passed between our section of Hornets in combat spread as we <ahem> were headed for some "tactical maneuvering" over Lake Tahoe in the summer of 1998.

Doppler notch, dontcha know . . . :rolleyes:
 
This forum is constantly providing a window to tell a war story......:)

Back in the days before formal MOA's, like 1960, the USAF was trying to train a gang of rowdy young aviators how to shoot down a Russian bomber in all weather circumstances. The place, Moody AFB, GA - the equipment, North American F-86L with Mighty Mouse 2.5 rockets.

The 86 was a great flying airplane, or as Bob Hoover commented in one of his books, the best. But when they loaded it up with a radar fire control system and a rocket pod that dropped down when fired, it became an heavy beast with a heavy single pilot work load. The radar system required heads down flying while locking on to a target and flying the airplane.

One day while running some practice intercepts on an T-33 towing a target, a gruff voice came across the tactical frequency, "Break it off", it was the tow pilot who almost always was a grouchy old instructor. I looked up and there in front of me was an Eastern Airlines DC-8, probably headed to New York from Miami. He was between the towed target and me and I had locked onto the DC-8, not the towed target.

Incidents like that for sure led to the establishment and management of MOA's as they exist today. Don't take their existence lightly. They have a purpose and job to accomplish. I won't fly into one if it is active. If you don't know who to ask about the status of any military operating area, just ask your friendly FAA controller for the area you are in.
 
Last edited:
One other thing to be aware of is all of the military training routes. Out here in the west they are everywhere and most are low level. Also out in Nevada especially if you don't want to fly in MOAs you'll have some long detours. I have never had a problem in one personally and when they are hot it is usually not a problem talking to the controllers. Don
 
No problem !!

I was just discussing this with a controller friend (civilian) who works MOAs regularly. He said sure I can give you advisories. It will go something like this:

Traffic 2 oclock 3 miles, he's at 500 feet.
20 seconds later.
Your traffic is now 2 Oclock at 1 mile and 15,000 feet. Good luck :-(

John
 
Traffic advisories

Whenever I have been using flight following and approach a MOA the controller always tells me he won't be able to give me FF thru an active MOA. Usually over here east of the mighty miss if you plan ahead a little it's not that big of a deviation to avoid one. Since my days in uncle sugars finest and knowing what's going on in the MOA I don't transit them if they are hot.
 
Once flew VFR from southeastern SC to just west of Memphis over the top of Hartsfield and the Memphis Class airspace both ways. Never saw another airplane up or back.

Big sky, little airplane...

The fact that it's not raining Cessnas suggests that the military is not running over quite as many as the hysteria on AvWeb might incline one to believe. Just my opinion, you understand, but I still think its safe to fly.


Lee...
 
Beware

Having been a user of MOA's for the last 14 years, I've always wondered why someone would fly through it during operating hours. When I get into one I usually have .9 to 1.5 hrs of training to accomplish in a very dynamic and fast paced environment. While ATC is usually good at pointing out traffic there have been times that there was an extra unknown to become part of the fight. Our flight hours and a slow eroding of usable space, has been slowly crippling us for a long time. Our training requirements and the ever evolving complexity of our aircraft leave us little time to not utilize when we are airborne. It takes forever for a spam can (at least an RV is a little quicker!) to transit the airspace that it has a large impact on training for that sortie as we "knock it off" for traffic. Also, you have to understand that we might be a little reluctant to publish our training cycles over a medium that anyone can have access to. Believe me that the military bends over backwards to accommodate so many people (private, airlines, people on the ground) that it has a dramatic impact on our operations. Ie...Can't fly over Steve Winn's golf course outside of Nellis (which was there first) that it effects the flow of a 90+ ship push/recovery during a red flag or an Ostrich farmer that complains that our sound is killing his livestock, creating pimples of no fly zones within the airspace that would make a teenager feel that he really didn't have such bad acne.

Lastly, always remember that you can not trust ATC or us for that matter, that we WILL see you and know of your presence. While we typically avoid each other, sometimes due to big sky theory alone, we don't want to meet in the same piece of sky. We have seats that will help us get out of most catastrophic problems.

Cheers,

Kobwo

Viper Driver
 
Having been a user of MOA's for the last 14 years, I've always wondered why someone would fly through it during operating hours.

Simple...because MOAs are all over the country with hundreds of airports contained within them and the military does a poor job of letting people know what's going on within them. Just look at the post that started this thread. From what I can see by looking at the seeandavoid.org website, there's not any mention of MOAs being "hot" on there. That website is absolutely useless -- it simply shows things that are already on the sectional (I wonder how much the military is paying for that site? -- another topic entirely).
 
Mark, if the MOA folks broadcast the relevant info on AWOS...then you don't need a 396/496. Just tune to it on your radio.

Of course you need not show this to the CFO if you really want a 396/496.

Frankly, I can see where people easily justify getting XM weather although I have not at this time.
 
OK

Simple...because MOAs are all over the country with hundreds of airports contained within them and the military does a poor job of letting people know what's going on within them. Just look at the post that started this thread. From what I can see by looking at the seeandavoid.org website, there's not any mention of MOAs being "hot" on there. That website is absolutely useless -- it simply shows things that are already on the sectional (I wonder how much the military is paying for that site? -- another topic entirely).

All I'm saying Jamie is that it may not be the safest thing to do if it can be avoided. Usually airports are never a problem as most MOA's begin at an altitude above the airport that doesn't impede entry or exit even up to a decent alt above the airfield. As for the website, can't say, looks useless to me but as I stated most operation groups are reluctant to release when we will be airborne.

Just make sure to check 6 and be extra vigilant!

Cheers

Kobwo
 
Because a MOA is shared airspace, not military airspace

Having been a user of MOA's for the last 14 years, I've always wondered why someone would fly through it during operating hours. ............

Cheers,
Kobwo
Viper Driver

The MOAs in CA are huge, right in the middle of convenient routes. They are shared airspace, not military airspace. The other side of the coin: I don't know why military pilots would want to train in airspace shared with civilian pilots.

There is lots of restricted airspace in CA, literally thousands of square miles, where military pilots can train unimpeded. There are also times, locations, and altitudes within MOAs that are not likely to conflict with civilian pilots who are trying to get somewhere.

Also, my understanding of MOA rules is that controllers are supposed to warn military aircraft of potential danger to civilian aircraft so they can knock it off until the danger is passed.

So, Kobwo, your see & avoid responsibility is the same as the rest of us within a MOA. If you are hot dogging, the responsibility is 100% yours.

As far as "Beware", your ejection seat may save your life, but it won't save your flying career if you take out a C172.
 
Wow...what an attitude...

So, Kobwo, your see & avoid responsibility is the same as the rest of us within a MOA. If you are hot dogging, the responsibility is 100% yours.

As far as "Beware", your ejection seat may save your life, but it won't save your flying career if you take out a C172.
__________________


When I see comments like this from some general aviation pilots I am completely shocked by the obvious lack of education/information about what is happening in a military MOA or in the minds of the pilots legally flying in them. I am about to step to fly right now in a supersonic military jet and in the process of the flight I will be testing the flight characteristics of the aircraft from 174 knots to supersonic flight, as well as the stall parameters, inverted flight capability (engine oil related) etc. During this time I will see and avoid to the best of my ability but realize at closure speeds in excess of 800 knots see and avoid will have to have a substantial amount of luck to be effective. And in maneuvering flight both TCAS and radar are only marginally effective as they can only see what is ahead of flight or within the last few seconds sweep. A threat of perhaps my career being on the line if I hit a GA aircraft in a MOA is absolutely ludicrous. That is furthest from my mind and I would think most people wouldn't even go there if a situation happened like this. It is a major disaster for all in aviation. As a GA pilot myself and owner of three airplanes and over 2000 hours in them, I give MOAs wide berth and do call the agencies for information prior to entering if safe. It is a FAR requirement that we keep current charts/information with us and not doing so is ignorant and dangerous and illegal.

I have over 4100 hours flying military fighter type jets and can honestly say I have never 'hot dogged' in an area or exposed myself to unnecessary, uncalculated risks. I am always on a flight plan, with training requirments and usually a flight test card and recorded both video and electronic parameters...they know what we are doing! Flying thru a MOA thinking it is your right and **** the torpedoes is an unnecessary, uncalculated risk that will lead to further restrictions to US general aviation pilots.

There is simply no wiggle room in this discussion. Be safe, get educated, have and use the most pertinant information and don't point fingers at those not responsible for your restrictions...they are ours too. There is a reason for MOAs, I know of no one still wearing a flight suit who is irresposible with them.

Dos centavos
 
The MOAs in CA are huge, right in the middle of convenient routes. They are shared airspace, not military airspace. The other side of the coin: I don't know why military pilots would want to train in airspace shared with civilian pilots.

There is lots of restricted airspace in CA, literally thousands of square miles, where military pilots can train unimpeded. There are also times, locations, and altitudes within MOAs that are not likely to conflict with civilian pilots who are trying to get somewhere.

Also, my understanding of MOA rules is that controllers are supposed to warn military aircraft of potential danger to civilian aircraft so they can knock it off until the danger is passed.

So, Kobwo, your see & avoid responsibility is the same as the rest of us within a MOA. If you are hot dogging, the responsibility is 100% yours.

As far as "Beware", your ejection seat may save your life, but it won't save your flying career if you take out a C172.

Sorry Steve, you missed the point BUT I think Jetj01 hit the nail on the head. This is a safety forum correct?

Cheers to all and safe flying!
 
Excellent post JJ,

I wish those who have not flown military take the post to heart. Just because you can go in there doesn't mean you should. I'm not going to try and psychoanalyze the mind set of those who insist on operating in ways contrary to being predictable but there is always that 1%. Sadly we end up talking about them after the fact and they can't defend their decisions because they end up no longer with us.

Not only do I not fly through MOAs, I give them a wide birth for spill out. (I remember spilling out myself a few times and a close encounter at 500 KIAS coming out of a 10,000' split S) :rolleyes:

Thinking you are going to fly through a (in use) MOA with traffic updates is about as smart as trying to be a minute-minute day trader using 15 minute delayed quotes.
 
Last edited:
More food for thought

If you look in the AIM under Military Operations Area you will see "the Department of Defense has been issued an authorization to operate aircraft at indicated airspeeds in excess of 250 knots below 10,000 feet MSL within active MOAs.

Combine that with the fact that the military pilot is most likely on an IFR flight plan with no cloud clearance criteria.

You're flying through the MOA with legal cloud clearance of 500' below. The military aircraft pops out of the cloud at 45 deg nose low. You now have 700' to see him. He's doing 500 TAS; we'll neglect your speed and assume he's near your 3 or 9 o'clock (right where you're looking for traffic right?). 500 TAS is about 840 fps. That's 0.83 seconds to "see and avoid".

This may be an extreme example but even 2000' horizontal clearance at a mere 250 knots closing speed only gives you 4.7 seconds. If you're doing a complete, continuous scan of the sky every 4 seconds, you're better than me.

Now you're saying that he'll see you on radar and "knock-it-off". We'll if he does see you, he will. But keep in mind most training aircraft don't have radars. A T-38 will ruin your day. ATC may or may not know you're there depending on your altitude, equipment, flight following usage, and their workload.

This really becomes an issue with low level military training routes. You have all of the ingredients for a mid air. Low altitude (military guys are worried about hitting the ground), high speed, no radar coverage, and GA guys flying with minimum cloud clearances.

Do you know where your local Low level routes are? Our FSDO has charts that depict them.

Paige
RV-8A
 
Dramatic but irrelevant

...... During this time I will see and avoid to the best of my ability but realize at closure speeds in excess of 800 knots see and avoid will have to have a substantial amount of luck to be effective. .............

Dos centavos

Because when I'm flying through a MOA at cruising altitude at GA cruise speeds, straight and level, on flight following, the local controllers know exactly where I am, and therefore you can know exactly where I am.

There is nothing illegal, unpredictable, or dangerous about that. It is a completely calculated risk which should have a good outcome, assuming you are not going to deliberately create unnecessary risk by carrying on in close proximity.

I realize that may mean that you have to alter your training plans. If I had knowledge of your plans, I'd be more inclined to stay out of your way. I am disinclined to avoid large tracts of SHARED airspace, just because you may want to use it.

Again, the MOAs are HUGE! On any given day or time you simply do not need the whole thing to train. I would be more sympathetic to your position if detailed information on date, time, position, altitude, etc, were made available so that I could plan my trip though this SHARED airspace.

I reacted strongly to Kobwo's post because he seemed to be saying that I better watch out because I'm the one who is going to die. Another posted used the term "unpredictable". You seem to imply that I am somehow "ignorant". There have been other posts that seem to infer that staying out of MOAs is a virtual patriotic duty.

I keep repeating that this airspace is SHARED. That is a legal fact of life whether you like it or not. Sorry if I won't be threatened, badgered, or belittled out of it.

I'd say it would be more productive to use obviously available technology to make both of us safer while we SHARE this airspace. Satellite linked info has been proposed. That's a great idea. I get TFRs over my 496, the same technology could as easily give me you trianing envelope. Local radio warnings have been proposed, which is also a good idea.

I think we'll make MOAs safer if you and others let go of the notion that GA pilots should surrender MOAs to exclusive use of the military and instead focus on a mutually beneficial solution that recognized the legitimate needs of both parties.
 
Because when I'm flying through a MOA at cruising altitude at GA cruise speeds, straight and level, on flight following, the local controllers know exactly where I am, and therefore you can know exactly where I am.

There is nothing illegal, unpredictable, or dangerous about that. It is a completely calculated risk which should have a good outcome, assuming you are not going to deliberately create unnecessary risk by carrying on in close proximity.

I realize that may mean that you have to alter your training plans. If I had knowledge of your plans, I'd be more inclined to stay out of your way. I am disinclined to avoid large tracts of SHARED airspace, just because you may want to use it.

Again, the MOAs are HUGE! On any given day or time you simply do not need the whole thing to train. I would be more sympathetic to your position if detailed information on date, time, position, altitude, etc, were made available so that I could plan my trip though this SHARED airspace.

I reacted strongly to Kobwo's post because he seemed to be saying that I better watch out because I'm the one who is going to die. Another posted used the term "unpredictable". You seem to imply that I am somehow "ignorant". There have been other posts that seem to infer that staying out of MOAs is a virtual patriotic duty.

I keep repeating that this airspace is SHARED. That is a legal fact of life whether you like it or not. Sorry if I won't be threatened, badgered, or belittled out of it.

I'd say it would be more productive to use obviously available technology to make both of us safer while we SHARE this airspace. Satellite linked info has been proposed. That's a great idea. I get TFRs over my 496, the same technology could as easily give me you trianing envelope. Local radio warnings have been proposed, which is also a good idea.

I think we'll make MOAs safer if you and others let go of the notion that GA pilots should surrender MOAs to exclusive use of the military and instead focus on a mutually beneficial solution that recognized the legitimate needs of both parties.

Steve,

Your point of view is rather myopic.

Yes, a pilot has the legal right to fly through a MOA on his way to visit a girl friend or grandma and totally screw up a military training operation. However, it simply is not smart to do it. There are a number of military and ex-military guys on this forum and a to a man they have indicated they will not fly through an active MOA as a GA pilot. Listen up - there is some wisdom in those statements. You have a PPL and an instrument rating, you do not know everything there is to know about flying an airplane.

Fighter pilots do not get enough training and never have. Part of the defense of the ILL Guard pilot who dropped bombs on friendly troops was laid to inadequate training. The time these guys get practicing their trade stateside is at a premium and to have it screwed up by some guy exercising his "legal right" could lead to much more restricted airspace than we now have. The defense of this country has considerable priority over the right to visit a girl friend or grandma under VFR rules.

If you must get somewhere that requires transitioning a MOA, file a flight plane and do it IFR. ATC will provide separation from any military operation if possible. If not, it is not a good idea to be there - just like it is not a good idea to take off at night with 1 mile visibility in rain and fog in Class G airspace to practice night touch and goes, also perfectly legal.

 
For those who have not flown in the military, I guess it's difficult to get the point across how dynamic the the flight activity can be inside the MOA. If the airspace is active, ATC advisories, a recorded message or even TCAS is going to be of little value against fast movers flying over 500 KIAS and changing altitude at rates of over 30,000 fpm.

We are normally trying to reduce or eliminate identifiable risk in flying. Flying through a MOA puts you, your passenger(s), and your airplane at increased risk. Yes, of course you can do it. This isn't about bullying, patriotism, law or ego on either side. It's about reducing identifiable risk.

Don't let YOUR ego put you, your passenger(s) or your airplane at increased risk.
 
Yes, I could do some limited flying without penetrating MOAs. Touch and goes at my local airport and such. But if flying in MOAs is so dangerous that I shouldn't do it, I will just have to give up flying altogether.

What I enjoy the most is flying the Guadalupe Mountains near my home. Much of this range is overlayed with a complicated pattern of MOAs at different altitudes from 300 AGL on up (not to mention military training routes). The same goes for flying to some of the most spectacular places near my home, like say Alamogordo.

I have spent over 1,000 hours flying gliders from Hobbs, NM. The gliderport and most of the good soaring country is overlain with MOAs with a floor of 10,000 feet. Yes, you could get in and out of the airport without getting in the MOAs, but to fly a glider in this area you don't want to be below 10,000 feet if you can help it. Also, you can't fly a glider contest IFR.

If a general aviation aircraft should not be in an MOA then that means it isn't really shared airspace, which is a point lots of people made when the MOAs went in. If general aviation shouldn't be in there then it should be a restricted area. I agree that we should have access to better information. My own impression, from the few times I have seen military aircraft in MOAs is that much of the time they are not in use and we are needlessly worrying and making huge detours due to lack of information.

So I'll repeat it. If I can't do this kind of flying, I might as well quit and take up go cart racing or something.
 
Again, the MOAs are HUGE! On any given day or time you simply do not need the whole thing to train. I would be more sympathetic to your position if detailed information on date, time, position, altitude, etc, were made available so that I could plan my trip though this SHARED airspace.

Huge to you, but not so huge to a 500-knot fighter or trainer. There are even subdivisions inside many MOAs that are not evident when looking at a sectional or IFR chart. For instance, when I taught in T-38s, our main training MOA in Texas was 70 miles long and about 90 miles wide. That's 6,300 square miles of area. Sounds huge, but it contained no fewer than 9 sections, each of which could contain one to four T-38s. While established in these areas, we had to keep turning almost constantly in order to remain within the lateral boundaries of our area.

Occupants of this airspace might include students pilots on their very first solo; two-ship or four-ship aerobatic formations; students performing fairly sloppy aerobatic maneuvers; instrument training; navigation training, etc. Above all this was another area for supersonic training, and below it were T-38s returning from low-level missions conducted within 250 miles of the base. None of these aircraft had radar of any kind, nor traffic collision avoidance gear. (I believe they have some kind of simple TCAS now.)

And that was just the T-38 side of the base. The other planes (T-1, T-37, T-6) had their own activities in other areas.

All this operated on a very flexible schedule that changed by the minute. That's the nature of military flight ops. As the saying goes, "Flexibility is the Key to Air Power."

It's nearly delusional to ask for a detailed activities list, "knowledge of the plans," and a firm schedule for when a MOA will be hot. You're asking for something that simply cannot be provided, even if everyone, civilian and military, had digital datalinks and real-time traffic displays. I don't mean that that training schedules for the military are always classifed, I mean that the nature of military flying often results in climb/descent rates and turn rates that are simply astronomical and way beyond the capabilites of current TCAS or even advanced ATC radars to predict potential traffic conflicts accurately. That's why, when civilian traffic enters a MOA, the military players are often forced to just "knock it off" and wait until you exit.

And think about what 30,000' per minute of vertical speed really means.

If a MOA is hot, you can assume that the whole thing, from floor to ceiling, MIGHT be used at any time. Because it actually might be! When I was based at Holloman AFB in New Mexico, it was not uncommon for us to be at 15,000' AGL one minute and be at less than 1000' AGL just a couple of minutes later. I've also been on a low-level route at 500' AGL and 540 KIAS, and route-aborted up to 25,000' in less than 90 seconds.

Yep, it's shared airspace. You can fly through a MOA legally and without fear of a violation. You can proudly thump your chest and say, "By Golly, it's my right to fly through here and I'm gonna do it."

But just consider that this shared airspace is called a Military Operating Area, and because of that, it truly is a risker place to fly than the airspace outside it. These days, when I fly airplanes (including high-performance, privately-owned ex-military jets) around the country, I try to avoid MOAs. If I can't, I just exercise my best judgement -- good VFR conditions, radio contact with ATC, eyes on a swivel, expect the unexpected. That's all.

Please listen to the knowledgable people around you who are gently steering you toward a smart attitude about MOAs. Nobody is trying to take away your airspace or your rights. They're just trying to keep everyone involved safe. Seems like a reasonable task, as long as everyone understands what they are talking about.
 
Last edited:
...But just consider that this shared airspace is called a Military Operating Area, and because of that, it truly is a risker place to fly than the airspace outside it...

Is it really riskier, Buck? When I click on the near mid-air and actual mid-air collision overlays I see very few have occured in MOA's. Most of the cases of airplanes almost banging into each other or actually hitting each other are occuring near population zones, not MOA's. Based on those collision overlays one might easily draw the conclusion that the MOA might be the safer place to be.

Here out west it's very hard to go some places without going literally a hundred miles or more out of your way to avoid flying through an MOA. As a hypothetical, consider a cross-country glider flight between Tehachapi, CA and Tonapah, NV. Not much territory between the two places isn't MOA or Restricted. For that matter you can't fly in some pretty huge areas of the Sierra Nevada mountains without being in an MOA. I agree with Larry, if you want me completely stay clear of these areas, I might as well hang it up and stick to horseback.

Head on a swivel from the moment the aircraft starts to move, no matter where I am or who I am talking too. Close calls can happen even when you are talking to a controller, I know, sometimes those guys don't point out the most important traffic, and they shouldn't be relied upon for separation under any circumstances. This is not a slam against air traffic controllers, just an acknowledgment of that fact that they are human too.
 
Last edited:
I'm with Larry on this, I grew up in New Mexico and know that if you fly extensively in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Idaho, you won't fly much if you never fly into the SHARED AIRSPACE of the MOA's. Sometimes its possible to maintain contact with controllers in these areas, but many times it's not, depending on weather conditions and what you're up to. Staying out of them is simply not an option that is realistic in some parts of the country. The solution lies in figuring out the sharing part. All of us need to work toward that.

I keep my eyes outside as best I can, monitor the freqs in the areas I'm flying in, use flight following when available at my routes and altitudes and be the best vfr pilot I can be. Shared airspace does imply shared responsibility for safety.
 
MOA flying leads to failed military missions?

Steve,

Your point of view is rather myopic.

Yes, a pilot has the legal right to fly through a MOA on his way to visit a girl friend or grandma and totally screw up a military training operation. However, it simply is not smart to do it. There are a number of military and ex-military guys on this forum and a to a man they have indicated they will not fly through an active MOA as a GA pilot. Listen up - there is some wisdom in those statements. You have a PPL and an instrument rating, you do not know everything there is to know about flying an airplane.

Fighter pilots do not get enough training and never have. Part of the defense of the ILL Guard pilot who dropped bombs on friendly troops was laid to inadequate training. The time these guys get practicing their trade stateside is at a premium and to have it screwed up by some guy exercising his "legal right" could lead to much more restricted airspace than we now have. The defense of this country has considerable priority over the right to visit a girl friend or grandma under VFR rules.

If you must get somewhere that requires transitioning a MOA, file a flight plane and do it IFR. ATC will provide separation from any military operation if possible. If not, it is not a good idea to be there - just like it is not a good idea to take off at night with 1 mile visibility in rain and fog in Class G airspace to practice night touch and goes, also perfectly legal.

David,

I'm sorry your arguments are not convincing.

The fact that military pilots are on the other side of this is not surprising, and does not mean they are objectively correct. It also has nothing to do with who is the better pilot, which is obviously not debatable.

Being a good pilot or serving in the armed forces does not entitle one to set airspace policy. Nor should it.

To me it seems they are trying to avoid actual sharing of the airspace..

This is shared airspace. My 3 year old grandson is learning that sharing his toys doesn't just happen when he doesn't want to use them. Shared, means shared. Everyone has to give some. It doesn't mean that the military has priority because its national defense. Of course national defense is more important than a trip to my grandmothers. Thats why if unimpeded training is required for national defense, it should be done in a restricted area.

You are telling me that if I safely and legally use shared airspace it will result in loosing it. That is a BS argument. This is similar to, and as faulty as the argument that overflying class B airspace will result in expansion of class B airspace ceiling.

If I don't use it, I have already lost it.

By the way, ATC does not provide separation for IFR in hot MOAs, because they will not allow IFR in a hot MOA. If you want to fly through a hot MOA, it has to be VFR.

For sane flying in a HOT MOA, straight & level with flight following, the real danger is not collision. Buckwynd as much as agreed to that.

Military aircraft either will or will not break off dangerous operations that threaten civilian aircraft. The rules say they will. Therefore, this is not really a safety issue unless military pilots disobey the rules.

The real danger is interrupting training operations. That can be avoided or reduced by improving communications and planning ahead.

I'm willing to share. That is, if I know in advance when and where operations are going to take place, I don't mind making some adjustments to time, route, or altitude to stay out of the way. That must go beyond "MOA is hot" type communication though.
 
Military aircraft either will or will not break off dangerous operations that threaten civilian aircraft. The rules say they will. Therefore, this is not really a safety issue unless military pilots disobey the rules.

You're assuming they know you are there.

A friend of mine cut a crop duster in half with a T-37. He and his student survived, the crop duster did not. Everybody was following the rules, they just didn't see each other.
 
Military aircraft either will or will not break off dangerous operations that threaten civilian aircraft. The rules say they will. Therefore, this is not really a safety issue unless military pilots disobey the rules.

The real danger is interrupting training operations. That can be avoided or reduced by improving communications and planning ahead.

Steve, I'm now out of the military. Not wanting to share has absolutely nothing to do with this. I don't fly in an active MOA because I know what goes on in there. If you knew what I know you would not fly in there either.

It's not about disrupting training. It's about our concern for your safety.

We are trying to SHARE our information but some of you just don't get it. We are trying to reach out to our fellow RV'ers and let you know what we know but I see you don't want to be confused with the facts your mind is made up.
 
Enough Already?

OK folks, this thread has just about reached the point of name calling, and I don't think that is going to serve anybody - it's already considerably more adversarial than I think it needs to be, so I'm going to close it - I haven't seen any new FACTS posted for awhile. And anyway, this is certainly not RV-unique - it could just as easily be posted and argued on a generic aviation forum.

Of course, if there are other moderators who think I have closed it prematurely, they are invited to open it back up without contest from me.

Stay Safe,

Paul
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top